Evidence for God from Science

Now as a side just for thought provoking discussion, (open to anyone)... If Adam was created on Day 6, (undefined 'billions' of yrs) and if he only lived what? 930 years? So are we saying Adam never made it to day 7? He never rested? Never had numerous children after day 7?

zacchaeus wrote:Now as a side just for thought provoking discussion, (open to anyone)... If Adam was created on Day 6, (undefined 'billions' of yrs) and if he only lived what? 930 years? So are we saying Adam never made it to day 7? He never rested? Never had numerous children after day 7?

Zacchaeus,

In progressive creationism, it's usually understood that Eve was the culmination of God's creating work. So, the 6th day ended shortly after Eve was created.

And again, according to a typical progressive creation belief, the 7th day is still ongoing. God is still resting from His creating work.

The 6 days work, one day rest model, is meant to show a 6 to 1 ratio. Not an exact time of work and rest. As evidenced by OT sabbath weeks, years, etc.

RickD wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:Now as a side just for thought provoking discussion, (open to anyone)... If Adam was created on Day 6, (undefined 'billions' of yrs) and if he only lived what? 930 years? So are we saying Adam never made it to day 7? He never rested? Never had numerous children after day 7?

Zacchaeus,

In progressive creationism, it's usually understood that Eve was the culmination of God's creating work. So, the 6th day ended shortly after Eve was created.

And again, according to a typical progressive creation belief, the 7th day is still ongoing. God is still resting from His creating work.

The 6 days work, one day rest model, is meant to show a 6 to 1 ratio. Not an exact time of work and rest. As evidenced by OT sabbath weeks, years, etc.

abelcainsbrother wrote:....I'm not trying to stir up division and strife but I must ask,where in the 6th day does it say Adam named all of the animals,etc? Let me be clear that I accept that "yom"can mean longer than a day.I don't see how anybody could deny this and I don't and it does'nt effect the Gap Theory interpretation because God is eternal so time does not hurt,however there needs to be a reason to make it apply to the 6th day. The only way I could see how it could be done is to think that in Genesis chapter 2 it is telling us what happened in the 6th day.

Well it says so in verse 20:

Gen 2:20 NASB, The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field...

What part of all does not mean all and how could all not mean all and remain true to being all?

And Yes, logically, Chapter two happened on the six creation day because, later, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden, correct?

Next hypothesis, is when did the fall happen?

Was it during day six or day seven?

Only clues we have are found in Gen 1:31 God saw all he made as good, functioning perfectly, at the end of the sixth day.

So if the fall happened at the end of the sixth day, then it would have made a very busy day for Adam and Eve. The would indicated if the creation days are merely 24 hour long earth days, Adam and Eve had lost paradise within 24 hours.

I mentioned this info earlier on another thread as a hypotheses: the Fall happening on the sixth day to point out an inconsistency that the literal 24 hour earth days interpretation of the creation account has with time: the point being, it adds to an already busy schedule Adam and Eve had.

Genesis 2:1-3 speaks of the 7th creation day and God resting as well as desiring humanity to rest as well. Now the bible clearly reveals from God's own words that he never sleeps, slumbers, or rest; therefore, God's resting from his works is different than kicking back and doing nothing but rather has more to do with enjoying the fruit of thy labor and taking care of it joyfully and testing it (all in accordance to what the bible says about God). God gave us the right to do the same sort of rest as well as the purpose for the Sabbath. Look at Matthew 12:11,12 as an example of this dynamic.

The seventh creation day begins in the evening and ends at sundown next day.

The next hypotheses concerning the fall of humanity is that it occurred on the 7th creation day because, God declared at the end of the 6th creation day all was going according to plan (very good). So during the 7th creation day of God, the fall may have occurred while Adam and Eve were resting.

Make no mistake, I am saying this as a hypothesis not a thus saith the Lord.

This again is a hypotheses only...
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zacchaeus wrote:B.w. we've had many discussions... Not sure who you keep tabs on, but if me, surely you say I've grown- a lot.

I'm not offended, at least not easily. I get your humour. I'm the funniest guy I know, and funnest.

I agree none of any of this is salvation bearing, but to use as a cop out not to discuss, and discussion is healthy, then there would be no page lol. I'm cool.

No problems my friend...

As for why the NIV - in these verses in Genesis it says the same things the same way as the other better translations do.

Hope the answer to Able helps answers...
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RickD wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:Now as a side just for thought provoking discussion, (open to anyone)... If Adam was created on Day 6, (undefined 'billions' of yrs) and if he only lived what? 930 years? So are we saying Adam never made it to day 7? He never rested? Never had numerous children after day 7?

Zacchaeus,

In progressive creationism, it's usually understood that Eve was the culmination of God's creating work. So, the 6th day ended shortly after Eve was created.

And again, according to a typical progressive creation belief, the 7th day is still ongoing. God is still resting from His creating work.

The 6 days work, one day rest model, is meant to show a 6 to 1 ratio. Not an exact time of work and rest. As evidenced by OT sabbath weeks, years, etc.

So what is the evidence for the Progressive Creationist position that we are still in the seventh day of Creation?

Genesis Chapter Three paints a word picture that both Eve and Adam were not working when the fall occurred. It also paints the word picture of YHWH Elohim walking in the garden in the cool breeze of the day and He too is not working but checking creation out.

Hypotheses: The fall happened sometime during the 7th creation day and that era of creation has not ended.

Evidence for this:

Heb 4:1-4, Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,' " although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4-5 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS"; 5 and again in this place: "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."

Heb 4:6-7 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "TODAY," after such a long time, as it has been said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

Heb 4:8-11 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. NKJV

See also Matthew 11:28,29 and Acts 7:49,50, and Exodus 23:12 NKJV

Notice that we are saved by Grace and not of works. This too denotes the purpose of the 7th creation day. Next, God takes care of his creation as Psalms 147:1-20, Psalms 104:27-28, Psalms 136:25, Psalms 145:15-16, Job 38:41, Mat 6:26, and Luke 12:24 reveal. That is one reason Jesus mentioned this about the Sabbath in Matt 12:11,12.

Jesus went about showing the Father by doing what - granting rest from sin, sickness, and reconciliation into the true rest of God! Also on the Sabbath, God tests creation as well as humanity to see who will abide in his rest or refuse. (see 1Ch 29:17, Psalms 7:9, Eccl 3:18, Zec 13:9, and 1Th 2:4 )

Lastly, Rev 21:1-27 and Rev 22:1-21 speak of new beginnings and new beginnings come on the 8th day of creation. Think about it.

So during the beginnings of God's seventh creation day, the fall happened and Jesus Christ sets things right so we can reenter God's Rest by his reconciling work done by the cross/resurrection.

That is basically the hypothesis of Old Earth Progressive Creation days that we are living in the current 7th creation day.

Now as for the age of Adam. That is not important as the ancient Hebrew language used to denote Adam's age could mean that Adam lived 930 years after the fall because God said in Gen 2:17 on the day you eat of it - you will die/die. How long he lived before death enter the world would be unknown as it is written in Romans 5:12 death entered.

One can easily read the ancient Hebrew concerning Adam's age referring to how long he lived after partaking what was forbidden, not actual age. This is in line with the ancient Jewish thought of: might be this - might be that, God knows... line of reasoning. Which engages a more healthy exchange of ideas than the western model of discussion.
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B.w. NO marine life... So couldn't be all there ever was???

B. W. wrote:

RickD wrote:

zacchaeus wrote:Now as a side just for thought provoking discussion, (open to anyone)... If Adam was created on Day 6, (undefined 'billions' of yrs) and if he only lived what? 930 years? So are we saying Adam never made it to day 7? He never rested? Never had numerous children after day 7?

Zacchaeus,

In progressive creationism, it's usually understood that Eve was the culmination of God's creating work. So, the 6th day ended shortly after Eve was created.

And again, according to a typical progressive creation belief, the 7th day is still ongoing. God is still resting from His creating work.

The 6 days work, one day rest model, is meant to show a 6 to 1 ratio. Not an exact time of work and rest. As evidenced by OT sabbath weeks, years, etc.

abelcainsbrother wrote:....I'm not trying to stir up division and strife but I must ask,where in the 6th day does it say Adam named all of the animals,etc? Let me be clear that I accept that "yom"can mean longer than a day.I don't see how anybody could deny this and I don't and it does'nt effect the Gap Theory interpretation because God is eternal so time does not hurt,however there needs to be a reason to make it apply to the 6th day. The only way I could see how it could be done is to think that in Genesis chapter 2 it is telling us what happened in the 6th day.

Well it says so in verse 20:

Gen 2:20 NASB, The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field...

What part of all does not mean all and how could all not mean all and remain true to being all?

And Yes, logically, Chapter two happened on the six creation day because, later, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden, correct?

Next hypothesis, is when did the fall happen?

Was it during day six or day seven?

Only clues we have are found in Gen 1:31 God saw all he made as good, functioning perfectly, at the end of the sixth day.

So if the fall happened at the end of the sixth day, then it would have made a very busy day for Adam and Eve. The would indicated if the creation days are merely 24 hour long earth days, Adam and Eve had lost paradise within 24 hours.

I mentioned this info earlier on another thread as a hypotheses: the Fall happening on the sixth day to point out an inconsistency that the literal 24 hour earth days interpretation of the creation account has with time: the point being, it adds to an already busy schedule Adam and Eve had.

Genesis 2:1-3 speaks of the 7th creation day and God resting as well as desiring humanity to rest as well. Now the bible clearly reveals from God's own words that he never sleeps, slumbers, or rest; therefore, God's resting from his works is different than kicking back and doing nothing but rather has more to do with enjoying the fruit of thy labor and taking care of it joyfully and testing it (all in accordance to what the bible says about God). God gave us the right to do the same sort of rest as well as the purpose for the Sabbath. Look at Matthew 12:11,12 as an example of this dynamic.

The seventh creation day begins in the evening and ends at sundown next day.

The next hypotheses concerning the fall of humanity is that it occurred on the 7th creation day because, God declared at the end of the 6th creation day all was going according to plan (very good). So during the 7th creation day of God, the fall may have occurred while Adam and Eve were resting.

Make no mistake, I am saying this as a hypothesis not a thus saith the Lord.

This again is a hypotheses only...
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Thanks for the explanation. I shall consider it but I have never thought of it this way.I've never thought Genesis chapter 2 tells us what all happened in the 6th day.I've always thought it just explains alittle more about God creating Adam and Eve and then placing them in the garden of Eden,it seems speculative to know how long it took God to place Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.I guess it could have been right after however it does not say,it could have been after the 6th day.Plus we have the "and the evening and the morning"problem also. Now when I think about science and the Big Bang Theory the bible seems to describe not only the Big Bang but both the 1st and 2nd laws of Thermodynamics too,still for some reason when I read Genesis I'm not sure how it would fit into it,but I like Hugh Ross and highly respect his knowledge of science and I loved it when he defeated atheist scientist Victor Stingor in the debate they had.Hugh Ross had Stingor bringing up unsubstantiated scientific ideas trying to make it substantiated science.I really believe had Hugh Ross came to the Lord with the Gap Theory? The theory of Evolution would have been defeated long ago and Hugh Ross rejects evolution too.I wonder if some knowledgable Gap Theorists could change Hugh Ross's mind to accept the Gap Theory? I doubt it. There were some Gap Theorists joking about several of them going to Ross to try to convince him to change his mind,but I said I doubt it would change his mind,but its worth a try.

So let me ask Rick,

If we have a 'day' (whatever that term means or however it's defined), would you agree there are 6 or 7 of those 'days' (whatever they are)? If so, following rules of language, and the context that be it (24hrs or 24billion yrs), that whatever they are- are Equal?

If so, then the 7th day isn't 'on-going' where God is still resting from His created work, but a timenor day where He simply 'ceased' His created work... He's not in a continual state of choosing to cease work, or rest from His work; He simply created and then He stopped, one time.

zacchaeus wrote:So let me ask Rick,

If we have a 'day' (whatever that term means or however it's defined), would you agree there are 6 or 7 of those 'days' (whatever they are)? If so, following rules of language, and the context that be it (24hrs or 24billion yrs), that whatever they are- are Equal?

If so, then the 7th day isn't 'on-going' where God is still resting from His created work, but a timenor day where He simply 'ceased' His created work... He's not in a continual state of choosing to cease work, or rest from His work; He simply created and then He stopped, one time.

Hi Zacchaeus,

As a progressive creationist, I believe "yom", as far as creation days are concerned, means a long, finite period of time. With that said, the 6 creation days don't have to be of the same length. Each "day" is just a long, finite period of time.

And like I said before, the 7th day is still ongoing. God is resting from His creative work. But there will come a time that God no longer rests from His creative work. When He creates the new heaven, and the new earth.

Unfortunately I cannot adhere to that, especially when God says whatever a 'day' means, that it was a day (and Hebrew is a very specific detailed language), and that day simply repeated and occurred over and over again at minimum 6 times, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and then 6. I see know room for interpreting those days (again whatever they are) as different periods of times... The language is too specific, each time period is too specific, the start of the day (morning and evening) and the end of the day, to constitute the start of a new day, hence day 2-6. I'm open enough to see wiggle room in the interpretation of a day (be it 24hr or billions of yrs) but that whatever they were, reaccured over again 6 times.

zacchaeus wrote:Unfortunately I cannot adhere to that, especially when God says whatever a 'day' means, that it was a day (and Hebrew is a very specific detailed language), and that day simply repeated and occurred over and over again at minimum 6 times, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and then 6. I see know room for interpreting those days (again whatever they are) as different periods of times... The language is too specific, each time period is too specific, the start of the day (morning and evening) and the end of the day, to constitute the start of a new day, hence day 2-6. I'm open enough to see wiggle room in the interpretation of a day (be it 24hr or billions of yrs) but that whatever they were, reaccured over again 6 times.

Just so you know about the hebrew word "yom" and why it can mean a day but it can also mean longer than a day look at Genesis 2:4 "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created(bara),in the day(yom)that the Lord God made(asah)the earth and the heavens."

OK in this verse you'll see I have added hebrew words beside certian words,you see "bara" and this means to build or create something brand new,then you see the word"yom" and you can know that it says day but we know it was really longer than a day based on the 6 days of restoration,then you see "asah" and this means to do work on something,to move something,etc -like notice it says in Genesis 1 "he MADE the stars also" they were not built then brand new, but God worked on them or moved them into position.

zacchaeus wrote:Unfortunately I cannot adhere to that, especially when God says whatever a 'day' means, that it was a day (and Hebrew is a very specific detailed language), and that day simply repeated and occurred over and over again at minimum 6 times, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and then 6. I see know room for interpreting those days (again whatever they are) as different periods of times... The language is too specific, each time period is too specific, the start of the day (morning and evening) and the end of the day, to constitute the start of a new day, hence day 2-6. I'm open enough to see wiggle room in the interpretation of a day (be it 24hr or billions of yrs) but that whatever they were, reaccured over again 6 times.

Zacchaeus,

The word "yom" has 3 main meanings.
1) the daylight portion of a day(sunrise to sunset)
2) a 24 hour "solar" day
3) long, finite period of time

The Hebrew language is not as specific as our modern English language. There are far less words in ancient Hebrew.

I'd just ask you, what warrant you have to take the stance that all 6 days(whatever length) have to be the same length? The Hebrew language doesn't demand it. If all 6 "days" are long, finite periods of time, even if they're not equal in length, it still fits the definition of the word.

Acb,

Ross gets something right, and yom in that case is absolutely definitive as is correct, but, did you notice its not used in measure with a number, nor seperate by morning and evening, which are the language rules of Hebrew that define a words meaning in its usage of the context.

Van Bebber and Taylor:

1) The word ‘rested’ (sabat) in Genesis 2:3 (Qal perfect 3rd person masculine singular) indicates a completed action, God rested (past tense).
2) That God blessed the seventh day, and it would be hard to understand how God’s curse could occur during a time that was specially blessed by God.

How can God create and it be good in the midst of disease and death, if it already existed? What atonement is their for man or the need of a Savior- for what already existed? What gymnastics can y'all do around 'sin' that entered by way of Adam, in which the wage of that sin, is DEATH???