Understanding the Trinity

[RickD]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

[jenna]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

[Philip]

Having faith that Jesus is God IS essential to the Christian faith - because that is what Scripture teaches. It's what it records Jesus said of Himself. He accepted worship, said He and the Father are one. So, at the very least, one must understand that there is Father and a Son, and both are God. Because if you believe in Jesus but deny He is God - well, that's what the cults do. And if one isn't a Christian, what profit is there in arguing over the Trinity with them?

[RickD]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

I would say the most essential belief is the deity of Christ. If one believes in a Christ that isn't God, one believes in a false Christ who cannot save.

As far as belief in the Trinity being an essential belief, I would say no, not necessarily. It depends on one's Christology.

[bbyrd009]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

no, i did not, and you cannot quote me saying that, anywhere. So wht you are now doing is making stuff up to reinforce your exclusionary view, with all due respect, which is the fruit of Trinity doctrine imo, and no other fruit can be witnessed. Or at least certainly has not been.

I said that God is the head of Christ, and Jesus was a Son of Man, and your view leads to many theological knots not even brought out here, that i am not inclined to go into.

[bbyrd009]

Having faith that Jesus is God IS essential to the Christian faith - because that is what Scripture teaches. It's what it records Jesus said of Himself. He accepted worship, said He and the Father are one. So, at the very least, one must understand that there is Father and a Son, and both are God. Because if you believe in Jesus but deny He is God - well, that's what the cults do. And if one isn't a Christian, what profit is there in arguing over the Trinity with them?

and all you have to do is throw out the half of Scripture that does not agree with your forced pov, then. ok.

[RickD]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

no, i did not, and you cannot quote me saying that, anywhere. So wht you are now doing is making stuff up to reinforce your exclusionary view, with all due respect, which is the fruit of Trinity doctrine imo, and no other fruit can be witnessed. Or at least certainly has not been.

I said that God is the head of Christ, and Jesus was a Son of Man, and your view leads to many theological knots not even brought out here, that i am not inclined to go into.

Your own words:

bbyrd009 wrote:
i do not believe that Jesus was God,
not sure how much clearer i can make it, Rick.

[bbyrd009]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

I would say the most essential belief is the deity of Christ. If one believes in a Christ that isn't God, one believes in a false Christ who cannot save.

As far as belief in the Trinity being an essential belief, I would say no, not necessarily. It depends on one's Christology.

well Rick, which is it?

[jenna]

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

I would say the most essential belief is the deity of Christ. If one believes in a Christ that isn't God, one believes in a false Christ who cannot save.

As far as belief in the Trinity being an essential belief, I would say no, not necessarily. It depends on one's Christology.

well Rick, which is it?

he answered you already

[crochet1949]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

I would say the most essential belief is the deity of Christ. If one believes in a Christ that isn't God, one believes in a false Christ who cannot save.

As far as belief in the Trinity being an essential belief, I would say no, not necessarily. It depends on one's Christology.

"I would say that the most essential belief is the deity of Christ...." -- yes, that means that Christ was/is the Son of God.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ, being the 2nd person / part of the Godhead / trinity.

The Godhead is what makes our salvation Possible. And the Holy Spirit is very much in the Godhead. It was the Holy Spirit who came upon Mary and she conceived the Christ child / the virgin birth. And the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. The person believes in their heart and then with their mouth, they confess the Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit indwells the person / stays with the person until they are with Christ. The sealing power of the Holy Spirit. The person is therefore eternally secure until they are with Christ. And one of the roles Of the Holy Spirit is that of convicting the person of their sins.

So - we have God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit. The Godhead / Trinity.

A person might not be Aware of the Godhead - trinity -- but it would be important for them to understand what's happening and that involves knowledge of those roles.

[bbyrd009]

This debate with bbyrd is pointless.

He's admitted that he's not even a Christian. Why anyone would further debate the doctrine of the Trinity with someone who isn't even a Christian, is a waste of time.

no, i have not admitted that i am not a Christian, sorry.

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

no, i did not, and you cannot quote me saying that, anywhere. So wht you are now doing is making stuff up to reinforce your exclusionary view, with all due respect, which is the fruit of Trinity doctrine imo, and no other fruit can be witnessed. Or at least certainly has not been.

I said that God is the head of Christ, and Jesus was a Son of Man, and your view leads to many theological knots not even brought out here, that i am not inclined to go into.

Your own words:

bbyrd009 wrote:
i do not believe that Jesus was God,
not sure how much clearer i can make it, Rick.

well, you can conflate Jesus with Christ, if you like, i used to believe like that. Then i came to see that there is a way to worship Jesus like a Snake on a Pole, and there are even different names for it, Nehushtan worship, in Scripture, or Jesus cult, or personality cult, and it can of course be difficult to reflect upon oneself as being the one involved, but when you are ready to believe all things, and ready to stop knowing everything, then a time comes when you can regard the concept dispassionately, recognizing that there is no condemnation for this, as we are inclined to read, but rather it is just a thing, that many believers, particularly in the Western faith, now, are inclined toward, and it is put into Scripture for a reason, so that it may be seen.

And the signs will be many. I have no desire to offend people, but this will culminate in an OSAS doctrine, iow you believe you are "saved" right now, but at the same time you are also waiting to be saved, or Raptured, by a bodily Jesus, which you cannot adequately explain; also an Erets understanding of Gehenna is replaced with a fear of "hell" that is plainly derived from Greek mythology, through Anglish translations (of a Norse mythology), or if you can discern another path, i would like to hear it.

"Sin" is also misunderstood, mis-interpreted, and mis-applied, as is "death," which is no longer "spiritual death," what God cares about, but is now focused on "end of physical life," despite the many explanations in Scripture, and even warnings to this effect, and also "sin" and "death" will be the primary focus of this person in conversation (re-laying the foundation, Scripture calls it), and many other signs, as well, that would hit even closer to home.

"The Bible is the Word of God" is usually present, also. One can go through the occupation of the Promised Land, before the deportation to Babylon (which might also spiritually be present in these, at some point; we even read testimonies to this effect), for more signs, which we of course ascribe to some nebulous "them," that does not agree with our set of beliefs, whoever they may be. Lots of exclusion will be going on (Promised Land, again), by these people who claim to "know" Jesus, and love Jesus, the guy who blew up the exclusionary principle in the PL. I could go on the rest of the day in this vein. Easily.

And you can resist it, but it does no good if you manifest it anyway, for all to see.

I bother in the hope that you might open your mind to the possibility, as these are all devices to keep you from finding Word.

[RickD]

Dude, seriously, what the hell are you smoking?

[bbyrd009]

Of course you did. You said that you believe Christ is not God.

That's an essential Christian belief.

Debating beliefs within Christianity, with someone who isn't a Christian, is fruitless.

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

I would say the most essential belief is the deity of Christ. If one believes in a Christ that isn't God, one believes in a false Christ who cannot save.

As far as belief in the Trinity being an essential belief, I would say no, not necessarily. It depends on one's Christology.

well Rick, which is it?

he answered you already

yes, but note that i say "Jesus is not God," and i am accused of believing that Christ is not God, and then we are told to accept that "Trinity is optional," somehow, after these "ground rules" have been laid. I am no longer free to accept what Scripture plainly tells me, and Jesus verified, in many places, that being that He was a Son of Man, and that God is the Head of Christ. This is no longer acceptable, see, i am now "not a christian," but "the Trinity is not an essential belief."

So, which is it?

[jenna]

tell me, what are the "essential" Christian beliefs? is believing in the trinity one of them?

I would say the most essential belief is the deity of Christ. If one believes in a Christ that isn't God, one believes in a false Christ who cannot save.

As far as belief in the Trinity being an essential belief, I would say no, not necessarily. It depends on one's Christology.

well Rick, which is it?

he answered you already

yes, but note that i say "Jesus is not God," and i am accused of believing that Christ is not God, and then we are told to accept that "Trinity is optional," somehow, after these "ground rules" have been laid. I am no longer free to accept what Scripture plainly tells me, and Jesus verified, in many places, that being that He was a Son of Man, and that God is the Head of Christ. This is no longer acceptable, see, i am now "not a christian," but "the Trinity is not an essential belief."

So, which is it?

so in other words, you do not believe that Jesus and Christ are the same? if this is so, then explain the difference (in words we can understand please?)

[jenna]

Dude, seriously, what the hell are you smoking?