Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote:

edwardamo wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:There is no Law EXCEPT THE 10 written by God's own finger.

I'm not sure where you got that bold opinion, but apparently the Lord Jesus didn't agree.

Where and when did Christ deny the finger of God writing the 10?

edwardamo wrote:When He was asked about the greatest commandment in the Law, he quoted one from Deuteronomy and one from Leviticus, neither of which were included in the Decalogue. And if anyone were really interested, I'm sure they could find dozens of other references that prove that lots of other commandments (circumcision, offerings, etc.) are also considered part of the Law. (See Luke 2:23-24 for one.)

The important point here is that the word "Law" can be used in Scripture to mean different things. It is probably most often used to mean the whole OT Law (including all the commands like sacrifices, etc., not just the Decalogue). But it can also be used in regard to God's universal moral standard of righteousness, as in 1 John 3:4 ("Sin is lawlessness"). And although there is a lot of overlap between the 10 Commandments and God's universal moral standard of righteousness, the 10 Commandments are never presented in Scripture as the definition of God's law in this sense of His universal standard of righteousness. (If that were the case, wouldn't you think a few more things might be included, like maybe prohibitions against divorce, incest, and homosexuality?) This being the case, it is a mistake to use the 10 Commandments as proof that God expects all people of all times to keep the Sabbath.

Once again for those (including edwardamo) that don't understand I am ONLY SPEAKING OF THE 10 Commandments. All other "laws" were not written by the finger of God.

And FYI...all those smaller "laws" you wish to add are already included within the 10...as even Christ summed up the 10 in 2 laws. Divorce would be non-existent (for example) if we could all perfectly keep the commandments.

Universal standard of righteousness. Even the Bible says that if we could keep the 10, there would be no need for Christ to come and die.
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This being the case, it is a mistake to use the 10 Commandments as proof that God expects all people of all times to keep the Sabbath.
How is it wrong to use God/Jesus' Holy Commandments as proof that He expects all people to strive to keep His Holy Sabbath? It is not hard to understand which laws are being refered to in any given scripture. First you have to know and understand that there are three sets of Laws, God/Jesus' Holy Commandments/Laws, second the Levitical laws and third the laws of Moses. You will find scripture where Jesus refers to the Law of Moses as He calls them by that. He can be found to speak of the Levitical laws and the Holy Laws/Commandments. He makes it very clear that they are three sets of laws. If they were to be displayed in order hanging then the first would be God/Jesus' Holy Commandments, then right under them would be the laws of Moses and the last would be the Levitical laws. Now the last set of laws, the Levitical laws and the second set of laws, the laws of Moses were removed out from under God/Jesus Holy Laws/Commandments and nailed to the stake with Jesus which left only God/Jesus' Holy Commandments/Laws which were not done away with.
I ask all of you what are you going to do when we, those who follow God/Jesus' Holy Laws/Commandments, and found to be right and there is a law passed making it illegal to strive to keep any other day except the firstday as the sabbath and that if you break this man made law you will be put into prison and killed and you will not be allowed to buy or sell anything? Will you still continue to keep the firstday sabbath with such clear proof that the firstday sabbath is the mark of the beast? There have already been laws passed in this country, USA, that made it illegal to sale and to do certain things on the firstday sabbath and there or still some states that still have such laws, but they do not inforce them. So we have clear proof that laws can and will passed that will set what day we must look at at being the sabbath, google blue laws, Will you turn and confuse unto God/Jesus that you were wrong and start striving to keep His Holy Laws/Commandments? I pray that you will as I would rather see you in the Kingdom as that would be my greatest joy, but I know that many of you will not. You will even turn in those that do strive to keep God/Jesus' Holy Commandments/Laws even those close to you because you desire and love the praise of men more than obeying God/Jesus.

B. W. wrote:See around later Bavarian Wheels I'll get back to this next Sat or Sun....

No one is patronizing you Bav, you been on this for Forum quite a while so by your style - I do know something about you...

...a very minute something.
But again, you have the title to do as you please.

B. W. wrote:Now to the readers and those Saturday people…

As for days - no one even knows for sure what day Jesus rose from the dead on as the Sabbath came about - about 24 hours after first day of Passover. Passover this year falls on Tuesday. So to be correct, Jesus rose on Friday: Now, every year, the solar day changes. We keep a solar based calendar system - not a lunar one so the solar days of the week Mon, Tue, Wed, etc are not true reflection the day you and I were born, the Passover Sabbath. etc...

Sunday December 7, 1941 is Pearl Harbor day but this year it falls on Tuesday! So what day do we observe Pearl Harbor day on? Only Sundays or whatever solar cal day it falls on? What day did it happen on? Sunday — so why observe it this year on Tuesday? Shouldn't it be only observed on Sunday? If not — you're a heretic to observe Pearl Harbor day on any other day except Sunday!

Say what you may - Bot both keep a seventh day observance of the Sabbath. Don't judge us and we do not judge you. The early Christian groups were Jews who were persecuted and observed the resurrection day as the day to gather, read the scripture, break bread, etc…

Thru the passage of time, changing of calendar systems, no one knows what day the original Sabbath falls on despite what you may think. As the Passover falls on a different Solar Cal day every year clearly indicates this truth. If it did not — then it would fall on the same solar day say Tuesday for example every year. Very simple and logical as the Pearl Harbor Day example shows. Apply the word Sabbath to Pearl Harbor day and see what I mean: The Solar cal weekday changes but the day remains 12-07-1941 no matter what day if the week it falls on form that point in history.

The early Church suffered persecutions from the Sabbath Keepers of that era. One of the charges was failure to keep the Sabbath. That same religious spirit is alive and well today. Mention the facts and watch the sparks fly. Such vitriol venom now slays unity in the body of Christ, uses words to condemn, no grace or love shown despite claims of justification of love.So I ask - Love the day more than others — your own Christian family, thinking that by doing so you show that your love for God is superior? Hmmmm…..

Again to all Saturday people — do you keep all the Sabbaths found in the bible and all the law these require? Do you Abide in the letter of Sabbath Law (Moses) or the Day Memorial set up by God in Genesis chapter 1-3 which permits grace and rest?

I'll post more but for now I am a bit busy this next week and may not be able to respond until next Saturday...

Take your time.

You may be right. We don't know the "exact date", however the scriptures you hold in high esteem tell us He died on the day before the Sabbath. The women came to anoint the body, it was very early just after the Sabbath.

Two words for you do consider. Date vs. Day.

As Sabbatarians, we are not keeping holy a certain date as you might want to insinuate. But we are keeping holy (as best sinners can) a certain DAY of the week.

No need to keep ALL sabbaths, because there is only one Sabbath.
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BavarianWheels wrote:Two words for you do consider. Date vs. Day.

As Sabbatarians, we are not keeping holy a certain date as you might want to insinuate. But we are keeping holy (as best sinners can) a certain DAY of the week.

No need to keep ALL sabbaths, because there is only one Sabbath.

So are we....
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B. W. wrote:So are we...

Didn't you just say time is lost?
Wasn't it just you that posted the days could be off?
Isn't it you that says there is no Sabbath binding to Christians?

You have a great way of being just like the sign over the old blacksmith's shop

"All kinds of twistings and turnings done here."
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BavarianWheels wrote:

B. W. wrote:So are we...

Didn't you just say time is lost?
Wasn't it just you that posted the days could be off?
Isn't it you that says there is no Sabbath binding to Christians?

You have a great way of being just like the sign over the old blacksmith's shop

"All kinds of twistings and turnings done here."
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Hi Bav.

You know my position on this. I just have one question: Do you judge other Christians who do not keep the Sabbath, or do you just feel obligated to try and keep to the Sabbath yourself?

Kurieuo wrote:Hi Bav.

You know my position on this. I just have one question: Do you judge other Christians who do not keep the Sabbath, or do you just feel obligated to try and keep to the Sabbath yourself?

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn"

I suppose we can judge if what is spoken is of the word. If not, there is no light.

So far, not one word from the Lord of the Sabbath of a change, not even from the apostles. Simply "men did this at this time and so..."

Matthew 15:8,9
Mark 7:13
Romans 3:29-31 - (but you say, "Amen, except that Sabbath law which is for the Jews..." ignoring vs. 29)

I feel the same obligation to keep, "Do not murder" as I do, "Remember...by keeping..." You on the other hand keep the "WHO" to worship, the "HOW" to worship, "WHY" to worship, but throw away the "WHEN" to worship.

Don't now tell me I can't keep the law perfectly because I'll just have to agree. It is not my law-keeping that saves, but Christ's that saves. The gospel "good news" is that what is needed for salvation is DONE FOR US. But as scripture clearly states, this does not then nullify that which is holy, righteous and true. We uphold what is holy, righteous and true. To willfully go against righteousness is somewhat scary...sn't it?

So you know where I stand. Let me ask you a question now. Actually to all who uphold Sunday as the Sabbath or better, nullify the Sabbath.

When the Blue Laws come into play more widely...what will be your choice? Will you follow the masses or will you stand for righteousness?
Daniel 3:16-19
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If you have a conscience to keep the Sabbath which you believe is attending a church on a Saturday (?), then you are doing so because you believe it is what God wants. I have no issue there.

However, I am fully convinced while resting one day a week is a good pattern to follow, it is not obligatory since I am under a new covenant with Christ and the old no longer has any obligatory power over me. Unlike stealing, sexual immorality, murder, etc there seems to be no moral obligation to keep the Sabbath, other than God commanded Israel to keep it.

So although I feel you ignore a great deal of Scripture regarding the old and new covenants (including some I recently posted), I am hoping we could at least agree with Paul who writes: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord." (Romans 14:5)

If not, then perhaps you can answer another question. Do you believe those who willfully do not keep the Sabbath are saved?

I recently tried keeping the Sabbath (I had been persuaded to believe the NT supports Sabbath observance but I'm not sure) and I ended up feeling 'low' and worried about breaking it. If I lived in a believing household or community where we all kept it, it probably wouldn't have been a 'problem'. It wasn't until I tried to keep it, that I realised the freedom we are under, under the Brit Chadasha. I still feel a bit worried in case I should be keeping it, but then I keep reading the verse quoted above by Kurieuo and that comforts me.

Kurieuo wrote:If you have a conscience to keep the Sabbath which you believe is attending a church on a Saturday (?), then you are doing so because you believe it is what God wants. I have no issue there.

However, I am fully convinced while resting one day a week is a good pattern to follow, it is not obligatory since I am under a new covenant with Christ and the old no longer has any obligatory power over me. Unlike stealing, sexual immorality, murder, etc there seems to be no moral obligation to keep the Sabbath, other than God commanded Israel to keep it.

So although I feel you ignore a great deal of Scripture regarding the old and new covenants (including some I recently posted), I am hoping we could at least agree with Paul who writes: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord." (Romans 14:5)

I answered your questions and I posed a question to you which you ignored. I'll pose it again in different words;

If (and I believe when) the government, through the guise of "family values" or similar, draws a line in the sand making the official worship day Sunday and in doing so removing freedom to worship, what will your thoughts be on this and ultimately, whom will you follow?
When the day comes and you need to make a choice, will you still be fully convinced of the unimportance of God's Law?
Which will you choose?

I don't ignore scripture. Not one person has pointed to a direct change in the law or a word about removing one of the 10 from either the apostles and even less from God/Christ. You've quoted Paul's words of

Paul-Romans 14:5 wrote:One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

My answer to this is that this fits squarely in line with scripture. When Paul writes, "He who regards one day special, does so to the Lord." is more than likely speaking of the Sabbath commandment as there was no indication of a change in the law as Paul himself acknowledges a few paragraphs before in Romans 3:31 and also clarifys that even Abraham's righteousness was CREDITED to him in the same manner his (Paul's) was and as ours is. There is no "new" covenant, that is to say, there is nothing different about the covenant other than one looked forward to a reconciliation and from the Cross we look back at our reconciliation. The law never changed, but it changed places from written in stone, to written on the heart. Paul just prior gives a more complete answer concerning the law in chapters 6 and 7 and also affirms the validity of the WHOLE law in Romans 13:8-10, which then puts your Romans 14:5-6 in context.

Christ's words to John in Revelation also convey the context of Romans 14:5-6.

Revelation 3:16 wrote:So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

This text also gives more context to the beloved "proof text" of Romans 14:5-6 which you twist and turn to do away with a commandment from God. You mention that the law "no longer has any obligatory power over me." By this do you mean to insinuate that by the Law there might be one human (aside from Christ) that has ever been deemed righteous? The Law only acknowledges a perfect person as such. The Law, to a sinless person is not a curse. The Law is only a curse to the sinner since the sinner is convicted by the Law and found guilty, thereby it is a curse, a yolk, a burden. Sinners are slaves to the Law without Christ. There is no avoiding guilt and ultimate death without Christ. However through the gospel, through Christ sinners are no longer slaves to the Law and death. We are freed from the curse of the Law...it amazes me that some still don't understand this concept so plain in scripture.

God certainly commanded Israel to keep His Law. If God is the originator of the Law, and I think you accept this as true, then the whole of it is to be kept by His people, not for salvation, but because it points to the Spirit. We are to live according to the Spirit, not our sinful nature. Just because we can't keep the Law perfectly does not nullify the Law. PLEASE read Romans 8:1-8 and onwards.

Romans 8:7 wrote:The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

Galatians 3:29 wrote:If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

We, who are not blood Israel are grafted onto the Vine and are now spiritual Israel. Scripture does not say there is a difference in the promise, the covenant.

Galatians 4:4-6 wrote:You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

If the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love, then LOVE does what?

Romans 13:10 wrote:Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

Kurieuo wrote:If not, then perhaps you can answer another question. Do you believe those who willfully do not keep the Sabbath are saved?

At this moment, if you were to die, I believe that your disregard to God's whole Law wouldn't be an issue. I believe your faith in Christ, despite your mistakes, would not change your salvation. However, when a line is drawn and a side must be taken, to go against God is to NOT be saved.

You are willfully not keeping the whole law. You willfully keep 9 of the 10, but damn that center law, it just annoys you.

Christ wrote:If you love me, keep my commands."

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catherine wrote:I recently tried keeping the Sabbath (I had been persuaded to believe the NT supports Sabbath observance but I'm not sure) and I ended up feeling 'low' and worried about breaking it. If I lived in a believing household or community where we all kept it, it probably wouldn't have been a 'problem'. It wasn't until I tried to keep it, that I realised the freedom we are under, under the Brit Chadasha. I still feel a bit worried in case I should be keeping it, but then I keep reading the verse quoted above by Kurieuo and that comforts me.

You're a sinner as we all are. No matter how much you try, you'll never be able to keep the Sabbath without breaking it constantly. The point is not to keep it perfectly, the point is to do as God asks. We do it as best a sinner can because "the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." and "love is the fullfillment of the Law".

Do you ever take the name of God in vain? Lots of Christians do, but do you think they "worry" about breaking it? Why or why not? Why would you feel any different about the Sabbath vs any of the other 9 commands in regard to breaking them? To break one is to break them all.
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Who do you think Paul was addressing in Galatians when he suggested those advocating circumcision for the gentiles should go ahead and keep cutting. If there is no new covenant, then why should circumcision be treated any differently than sabbath keeping?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Who do you think Paul was addressing in Galatians when he suggested those advocating circumcision for the gentiles should go ahead and keep cutting. If there is no new covenant, then why should circumcision be treated any differently than sabbath keeping?

Is there an 11th Commandment about circumcision that I'm missing? Was circumcision written on the tablet(s) of stone by God's finger?
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BavarianWheels wrote:You're a sinner as we all are. No matter how much you try, you'll never be able to keep the Sabbath without breaking it constantly. The point is not to keep it perfectly, the point is to do as God asks. We do it as best a sinner can because "the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." and "love is the fullfillment of the Law".

Do you ever take the name of God in vain? Lots of Christians do, but do you think they "worry" about breaking it? Why or why not? Why would you feel any different about the Sabbath vs any of the other 9 commands in regard to breaking them? To break one is to break them all.
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Ok, you make some good points, but just to clarify Rom 14:5, what do you think Paul is referring to here and how come Sabbath observance was not one of the things the Apostles said was necessary for Gentile believers? (Acts 15:20). I can see that the Torah observant 'Israelites' (natural Jews) who became believers in Jesus would continue to keep Torah and Kosher etc, but these things were not 'enforced' on gentiles who became believers in Jesus. How could a gentile slave 'keep' Shabbat, or kosher if their master didn't allow it? Hence gentiles were grafted in, without the requirement to keep these things. Maybe we are keeping 'shabbat' in a spiritual sense ie. we are resting from the very 'works' that the Jews were forever performing, in trying to be acceptable to God (animal sacrifices, physical circumcision, clean and unclean etc). Jesus has done the work for us to be counted as righteous and so the physical, literal requirement is no longer needed (just as literal lambs are no longer needed to be sacrificed). Just some thoughts for you.......

catherine wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:You're a sinner as we all are. No matter how much you try, you'll never be able to keep the Sabbath without breaking it constantly. The point is not to keep it perfectly, the point is to do as God asks. We do it as best a sinner can because "the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." and "love is the fullfillment of the Law".

Do you ever take the name of God in vain? Lots of Christians do, but do you think they "worry" about breaking it? Why or why not? Why would you feel any different about the Sabbath vs any of the other 9 commands in regard to breaking them? To break one is to break them all.

Ok, you make some good points, but just to clarify Rom 14:5, what do you think Paul is referring to here and how come Sabbath observance was not one of the things the Apostles said was necessary for Gentile believers? (Acts 15:20). I can see that the Torah observant 'Israelites' (natural Jews) who became believers in Jesus would continue to keep Torah and Kosher etc, but these things were not 'enforced' on gentiles who became believers in Jesus. How could a gentile slave 'keep' Shabbat, or kosher if their master didn't allow it? Hence gentiles were grafted in, without the requirement to keep these things. Maybe we are keeping 'shabbat' in a spiritual sense ie. we are resting from the very 'works' that the Jews were forever performing, in trying to be acceptable to God (animal sacrifices, physical circumcision, clean and unclean etc). Jesus has done the work for us to be counted as righteous and so the physical, literal requirement is no longer needed (just as literal lambs are no longer needed to be sacrificed). Just some thoughts for you.......

Hi Catherine, good question, one I believe Paul plainly answers in the words that preceed Acts 15:20. First of all the contention is not whether or not to keep THE Sabbath (please note that my whole point rests on the Sabbath spoken and written by God's voice and written with His own finger.) but rather the contention was whether circumcision was necessary to be saved. In Acts 15:6 the apostles and elders meet to discuss then Peter gets up and speaks;

Acts 15:7-11 wrote:After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Please note first of all that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. All are saved EXACTLY in the same manner. Secondly note that the "yolk", no one has never been able to bear. Lastly, just to remind, the contention is with circumcision...not the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a "given" command followed as is evidenced by Acts 15:21 which is stated immediately following the list of things to ABSTAIN from.

Later in the same chapter the apostles choose to send Judas and Silas with a letter.

Acts 15:23-29 wrote:With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul-- men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

Farewell.

If you're to take the 10 Commandments, is there anything in the 10 that speak of food or sexual immorality? Then it is clear the point is not replacing God's Commands which never change and no word in the whole of scripture changes the validity of God's Law. So then which law(s) speak of abstaining from food, drink, sexual immorality, sabbaths (other days of observance for other reasons besides what is written into the 4th Command), sacrifice...?

Please take a look back at the previous post in reply to Kurieuo. If you will, please pay special attention to what the Law does. The Law points at sin and so to a sinner the Law is a curse. Christ lifts the CURSE, but this does not remove or nullify the Law. The Law is holy, righteous, and true. Read Romans 7 and Romans 8 carefully and slowly taking note of when Paul is speaking of the law and the Law (God's 10). It's all there. Also see Galatians 3:12,13 , 1 Timothy 1:1-11 , Also note Hebrews 10:1-10 and forward, taking special care to note the context of "law" spoken of in Hebrews. (among many other texts throughout scripture)
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Bavarian Wheels, you make some good points. Do you 'keep' the high Sabbaths as well and all the 'finer details' regarding the Sabbath e.g not lighting fires? Apologies if you answered this earlier. I've only read so far back.