Infinite punishment for finite sins

[Canuckster1127]

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm just asking some questions to try to understand where others are coming from and to share some of my thinking as well.

My question was focused upon systematic theology, not learning and understanding in general. Are you aware of anywhere in scripture that uses the methodology of multiple prooftexting from multiple sections of the bible and then uses logic and syllogisms to make it's points? The closest I can find is the Prologue in John and some sections of Paul's epistles, but even then the building is qualitatively very different than what I see in typical systematic theology and proof texting approaches.

So no, I'm not asking the coversation to end, and I'm not suggesting the subject matter is inappropriate.

Truth be told, in the context of the this conversation, Hell should be one of the easiest subjects to examine, because Jesus had a great deal to say on the subject, so I'm not even trying to limit the scope of the subject in that regard.

I'm just trying to not take a purely intellectual look at things and bring them back to Christ as the lens through which we examine and understand the scripture.

[J.Davis]

Hi Bart!

I hear you....I agree with this...

I'm just trying to not take a purely intellectual look at things and bring them back to Christ as the lens through which we examine and understand the scripture.

It’s all about the heart and trying our best to show God’s character and love. I don’t think the bible limits us in the methods we can use to teach and open the eyes. So long as it does not tell us not to do something, is not a sin, does not disturb one’s heart and that person is a true child of God than I am pretty sure that it’s ok. But there is a big difference between the gift of knowledge, discerning and systematic theology. And both have greater and greater levels one can reach. People forget why they made choices in life, some lead to undesirable results, pain and a habit of trying to cover their pain with more lies...then comes depression etc.

The heart can be outwitted by one’s mind but that same mind can be outwitted by another's heart. Logic born of life experience, a heart that has been through hell and delivered and enhanced by God’s gift...It might not be systematic theology. But even if it was...God could use it as he does many forms of ministry.

So long as the person is a true Christian I think it’s ok. But things that effect the heart/feelings for the better are my favorite.

In short...give it all to God....I neither disagree with you or disagree with systematic theology in the hands of a skilled Christian who loves God....All for God..

[Sudsy]

. Not debating but just trying to understand what that last post said. Can you explain what you believe is the 'heart' of man so I can follow the conversation ?

[J.Davis]

Hey Sudsy!

Well, I certainly don’t mean the organ that pumps blood …lol.

In this case I mean one’s essence, feelings, conscience and all the stuff that can make someone reconsider their beliefs despite what their mind say’s. A lot of people open up pretty easily after a good praise and worship session and feeling God’s presence or hearing a testimony or receiving a miracle etc. Some things (not this hell topic) are way to complex to prove to people. Like where did God come from or do we really have free will. If someone constantly uses such questions as a reason for dismissing God than they may really believe that God does not exist despite the feeling they once had…The feeling that made them ask and challenge the question in the first place. At that point one may need more than advanced reasoning…

[B. W.]

Jesus says he is the foundation and the cornerstone, doesn't he?

Honest question, if systematizing in this manner is what is needed to understand God, why did Jesus have to come and why didn't he teach in this manner? Is the systematic methodology itself modelled in scripture? If not, where is it coming from and what assumptions is it carrying?

Bart, Let's clear the air. What I am suggesting is not fundamentalism systematic theology approach. It involves something quite different than what people first think. Clue: Faith…

It teaches faith… with that – I say no more…for now

If you or any reader would like to continue you will learn something gaining vastly more than anything you could ever bargain for. If not, so be it. As is your faith, so be it.

One of the new movements in the Church reaches for social justice based on collective salvation, it holds a certain disdain for systematic theology. From this movement comes various other ideas that have crept into the church world. However, there is another on the move as well: Faith.

The reason for looking at the bible for the evidence of who God as God describes himself is that it sets forth the Foundation: Example regarding Christ being the foundation/Rock - quickie answer: Trinity – so what applies to Christ – applies to God. OT – God is our Rock… etc and etc.. Christ our Rock etc and etc…

If one desires to get to know God and his ways? Where shall they go? Where is their faith set? What's in their heart? What can expose and cleanse what’s in the Heart? Truth often answers in silence while standing right in front of you because the voice of one’s chatter drowns out hearing truth over one’s own clatter.

I know there is an argument that states that any and all either / or lines of reasoning is built upon ancient Greek philosophy and thus a false way to uncover knowledge; however, would Jesus agree with this line of thinking?

Matthew 5:37, “But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' for whatever is more than these is from the evil one.”

Jesus’ line of teaching is to connect the dots through seeking reason…from the scriptures to teach truths about God. He uses parables to engage a seekers reason and in the process testing them through more lessons of living progression exposing what rules their hearts, leading them to a certain choice that needs to be made…

So to any readers, do we toss out all yes and no questions – resort only to what people believe as the bases for scriptural truth so that no truth can ever be known with certainness? Or would you like to actually discover absolute truths about God that can straighten out certain doctrines and solve hard issues between Christians increasing your faith in ways you cannot fathom, yet?

Romans 10:14, “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?”

Beware of those that seek to triangulate…
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[B. W.]

+
Proverbs 25:2, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter..."

I am posting the scriptures again for reference. What do they objectively say about the Lord. Please put these in your own words and post so that we can begin where you are at. We will get back to the topic in due time - Thanks...

Isaiah 6:3, “And one cried to another and said: "Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory!" NKJV

2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” NKJV

Hebrews 6:18, “…that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.”

Deuteronomy 32:4, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He."

Job 34:10-12 "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, nor will the Almighty pervert justice."

Psalms 92:15, "To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

Job 8:3. "Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?"

Zep 3:5,"The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame."

2 Ch 19:7, "Now therefore, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes."

Isa 55:8-11 - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

Isa 46:9-10 - "Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure..."

Deuteronomy 10:17, “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.”

Nahum 1:3 - "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked..."NKJV

Isaiah 57:21 - "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked."NKJV

Job 37:23, "As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress."

Ecclesiastes 12:14, “For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.”

Jeremiah 17:10, “I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.”

As well as Ecclesiastes 3:11, 14

There are even more and you can post those as well...

Making such a summery, in your own words will aid the Holy Spirit to quicken things to you in a omni-personal way for years to come concering many other topics that these will branch off into under the Lord's guidence to you. I can only suggest that you keep your summery handy, inside your bible...and see what the Lord will do.

[Sudsy]

In this case I mean one’s essence, feelings, conscience and all the stuff that can make someone reconsider their beliefs despite what their mind say’s.

Thanks J. Davis although I still am having some problem following but I'll keep trying. Actually what I meant to ask was what you thought was meant in scripture as 'the heart' of man. What does the bible mean when it uses the term 'heart' ? I ask that because I believe it includes 1) the intellect or thinking ability; 2) the emotions; 3) the will or volition; and 4) the conscience. So I get confused when someone appears to be separating the mind from the heart.

This might be an interesting thread on it's own because Jesus is mainly concerned with what is abundant in our hearts which I believe involves all four of these dimensions. Anyway, I don't mean to side-track the issue on this thread. Just trying to understand certain terminology being used.

[Canuckster1127]

Hey B.W.,

No need to clear the air. I'm not trying to argue with you or not listen to what you have to say.

I hope I'm being clear. I'm not saying that systematic theology has no value. I'm saying that it is of limited value when it draws conclusions that are not consistent what what scripture has to say when viewed through the primary lens of Jesus.

If you or any reader would like to continue you will learn something gaining vastly more than anything you could ever bargain for. If not, so be it. As is your faith, so be it.

Nobody is stopping you. Go ahead and say it.

One of the new movements in the Church reaches for social justice based on collective salvation, it holds a certain disdain for systematic theology. From this movement comes various other ideas that have crept into the church world. However, there is another on the move as well: Faith

You seem to be suggesting that either all who question systematic theology in the manner I have come from that movement or that that is the position I am coming from. That's an all or nothing type logic error. There are multiple reasons why some might question. As it stands, I've stated my reasons so why attempt to bring this in, in this manner? If you wish to say something direct to me in that regard, we're good enough friends that you can do it without this indirect type of attribution. If not, then as I've stated what my premise is and it's not what you're suggesting then. I've stated I believe we don't start with logic, nor do we start with "faith" as a concept. We start with Christ. Jesus Christ the person. We can examine what he has to say about something and we can then use that as the lens through which we examine the rest of Scripture. I think I've stated before that all Scripture is inspired but not all Scripture is of equal importance. Jesus is the focal point through which all Scripture is understood. I hope I'm clear on that.

I know there is an argument that states that any and all either / or lines of reasoning is built upon ancient Greek philosophy and thus a false way to uncover knowledge; however, would Jesus agree with this line of thinking?

Strawman. You've grossly overstated and made an absolute statement here that I've not made. I believe in absolutes and I believe that there are elements of Scripture that are absolute and conform with the laws of Greek Logic. I mentioned earlier elements of Paul's Epistles and the Prologue of the Gospel of John as examples. That's a far cry from questioning all lines of reasoning built upon Greek Logic. I do believe however, when logical constructs are built from juxtaposed portions of Scripture that werst things from context and then lead to conclusions that cannot be found in any one passage of Scripture or tied back to the Christological lens I mention, then we're definitely on shaky ground. Do you disagree with that?

To be more clear, my faith is in Christ. My faith is not in faith itself.

By all means, if you wish to proceed, don't let me stop you. I respect you and am happy to give it a hearing. I'm certainly not going to however, give assent in advance of hearing it.

If I'm misunderstanding then please correct me, and I'll do my best to understand what you're attempting to do here.

blessings,

bart

[J.Davis]

@ Sudsy.

Hey Sudsy..Yeah, I was not talking of the heart as defined by the bible. If I had to describe the heart as God speaks of it I would just say that it means inner truth. People can say one thing and believe another or think one thing and believe something else, desire something or love someone and not know why etc. Heart meaning all that deep stuff that only God knows.

But yeah, maybe another topic, though I do not think it will go very far…the heart is God’s domain.

[B. W.]

One of the new movements in the Church reaches for social justice based on collective salvation, it holds a certain disdain for systematic theology. From this movement comes various other ideas that have crept into the church world. However, there is another on the move as well: Faith

You seem to be suggesting that either all who question systematic theology in the manner I have come from that movement or that that is the position I am coming from. That's an all or nothing type logic error. There are multiple reasons why some might question. As it stands, I've stated my reasons so why attempt to bring this in, in this manner? If you wish to say something direct to me in that regard, we're good enough friends that you can do it without this indirect type of attribution. If not, then as I've stated what my premise is and it's not what you're suggesting then. I've stated I believe we don't start with logic, nor do we start with "faith" as a concept. We start with Christ. Jesus Christ the person. We can examine what he has to say about something and we can then use that as the lens through which we examine the rest of Scripture. I think I've stated before that all Scripture is inspired but not all Scripture is of equal importance. Jesus is the focal point through which all Scripture is understood. I hope I'm clear on that.

Yes then we agree where to start. In BSF class tonight the Lecturer point out this interesting principle from Isaiah 7 - People of faith see life through the lens of God's word and character. This is a good summery of what I am trying to convey without giving to much details.

This is ground not really covered anywhere, nor I have read books on it or even heard anyone else teach on, so I am moving slow to start out and clear the air. You can say I stumbled upon this out of necessity and have seen the positive fruit in others that come about because of the Lord's work in them is brought forth to light: bible study opens up insights in many, Oh My - now I see moments. Lastly, I did miss read you so please forgive me, sorry about that Bart.

I know there is an argument that states that any and all either / or lines of reasoning is built upon ancient Greek philosophy and thus a false way to uncover knowledge; however, would Jesus agree with this line of thinking?

Strawman. You've grossly overstated and made an absolute statement here that I've not made. I believe in absolutes and I believe that there are elements of Scripture that are absolute and conform with the laws of Greek Logic. I mentioned earlier elements of Paul's Epistles and the Prologue of the Gospel of John as examples. That's a far cry from questioning all lines of reasoning built upon Greek Logic. I do believe however, when logical constructs are built from juxtaposed portions of Scripture that werst things from context and then lead to conclusions that cannot be found in any one passage of Scripture or tied back to the Christological lens I mention, then we're definitely on shaky ground. Do you disagree with that?

To be more clear, my faith is in Christ. My faith is not in faith itself.

By all means, if you wish to proceed, don't let me stop you. I respect you and am happy to give it a hearing. I'm certainly not going to however, give assent in advance of hearing it. If I'm misunderstanding then please correct me, and I'll do my best to understand what you're attempting to do here.

No disagreements here, glad the air is cleared, you had me wondering a bit

Notice that I said Faith - not word of faith - there is no comparison between the two. When I stated Faith - it's Living Faith in Christ I am referring too but before I go further, it is important for people to review the verses cited and make a summary of God's Character which is objectively stated adding nothing else.

The reason for this is that what the bible reveals about the Lord character, attributes, nature are well defined. This presents an unusual clarity within the bible. In examining the topic of this thread, these will present truth that reveals where one's faith resides, as well as many other things per individual that will come in handy later on in ways unknown at this time for things unrelated to this topic concerning Hell and its duration.

From one's own simple summery, the Holy Spirit will teach you from it, himself, and use your summery in many different ways for many different topics. Sometimes causing you to correct things, hold fast what is good, toss out the bad as well as reveal what the object of one's faith is toward... It will often cause much wrestling with the Lord. Also when I mention God or the Lord - I mean the Trinity i.e. the Godhead. So please don't think Christ is not included as the foundation by how I use the generic word God...

So a clue about what I am attempting to teach is summed up in principle learned from my local BSF class Monday night: People of faith see life through the lens of God's word and character.

So right now, I am deliberately being vague, as I don’t want to say too much too soon.
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[Canuckster1127]

FWIW, I think that there are plenty of materials out there that I think address things from this direction. A.W. Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy, comes to mind for instance as one example.

[B. W.]

FWIW, I think that there are plenty of materials out there that I think address things from this direction. A.W. Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy, comes to mind for instance as one example.

Yes that book (writings) does but Tozer also sought to have the readers to move further on into the vastness of God...not depend on what he wrote alone but move onward...

I'll be posting a breif summery soon and anyone else please do as well.... From these I'll show an illustration of how this works gaining insight into knowledge of Holy...
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[Sudsy]

For those who may be interested, William Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army had a vision that really spoke to him in his evangelistic ministry. Although this thread is a debate on views of infinite punishment, it might be good to stop and consider what Booth saw happening with the way some respond to what they believe. This video is entitled Who Cares ? A good question for all of us to consider http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOiLIetJmBQ

[smiley]

No, not at all..

Does revelations say that some physical object on earth was burning? Nope!

Don't be an ankle biter. The phrase "forever and ever" as a reference to the duration of an event is used in both instances. Thus, the annihilationist has good grounds to take the one from Revelation figuratively.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire

Daniel 12:2 again: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence, hatred, detestation, great aversion).”

ETC...There is no way that God did not mean never ending burning...And I didn’t even have to rewrite the bible.

1. More than half of these verses are irrelevant. Because annihilationists affirm that the punishment is eternal.

2. Having read through the last few pages, I haven't seen any good responses to Hebrews 6:1-3, which can be used as a basis for interpreting the verses that speak of eternal condemnation as being eternal in consequence, not duration. It is also not the only verse, as the New Testament also speaks of "eternal redemption", and no one understands that to mean that the righteous will experience the process of being redeemed forever.

The only one to address it is B.W on page 13, and he does so by interpreting "eternal" as "final" judgment. And that's all fine, but the annihilationist can do the same with the other verses.

[Sudsy]

And the accompanying song by Keith Green - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kmJYEGn ... re=related