Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote: it is our heart God desires, and not rituals or laws although such may nonetheless be an outward expression of our love for God.

Buuuuuut, The new expanded version of the old laws is intended to capture the mind / heart. Remember to even look on a woman to lust after her is in fact the breaking of the law. So ultimately the law applies to the inward man just as it once applied to the outward man. to me this is the great difference between old covenant and new. The old only applied to the outside action where the new aplies to your very thoughts. Essentially the same moral laws / standards with added expansion of intent to include the mind, minus the sacrificaial laws which were done away with because of Christs final sacrifice.

Note that when it states in scripture;

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Many here appear to infer that the laws only duty was to simply show that one needs Christ. But I see this schoolmaster as a teacher in holiness showing us many specific points for how to be holy, not to automatically get a ticket to heaven mind you, but rather to show those who desire to reflect the image of God some of the myriad ways we can strive to be like him in all our ways.
An inferable point that backs my position comes from the NT and ties into the following verse which was together with the verses above;

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Note the reference to abrahams seed;

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

According to Christ being a child of Abraham means that you perform works as Abraham would have while also having faith. Note below that people were admonished to outwardly show fruits worthy of repentance rather than feel safe just believing that your saved simply because you are genetically decended from Abraham.
In essence I percieve the same type of argument is being brought in this forum as the people in Christs day argued against him for how to reach eternal life. They felt it was entirely hinged on genetic line and in contrast the message being given here is that everything hinges on faith alone with no need to worry about how we act.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

So the message that I understand is that Faith in Christ in an indespensible part of the equation but there is also the idea that we are to strive for holiness with the understanding that our striving is now done with the HS as our guide / helper to all righteousness that we may overcome the problem of sinning because we didn't have the wisdom to do so on our own.

RickD wrote:So, KBC, your question to me is:

How do you honor the sanctification that God put in place for the seventh day?

RickD wrote:
By believing in Jesus Christ. Our Sabbath rest.


Kbc wrote:
Ok good we are making progress. You have stated your belief so the next step for my information is how did you derive this interpretation if you would be so inclined to of course.

KBC, I was going to work out a detailed answer, but I think a simple answer is best. The OT Mosaic law was given to God's people Israel. The law in one sense was given to show them that by their works of trying to please God, they will never succeed. The law pointed to Jesus Christ, who perfectly fulfilled the law, and all of its requirements. The Jewish Sabbath was given to Israel, as a reminder to rest from their works. Jesus is the ultimate Sabbath. Every other Sabbath points to Him. He is our rest. We cannot come to God by our works, so by resting in Christ, and knowing he is the only way to reconcile ourselves to God, we are saved.

Jewish weekly Sabbath=day of rest for the people of Israel
Ultimate Sabbath(Jesus Christ)=ultimate rest from working to try to gain God's approval.

I'm not sure if that helps you understand why I believe that, KBC. If you have specific questions, ask away. I'll do my best to answer them.

KBCid wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: it is our heart God desires, and not rituals or laws although such may nonetheless be an outward expression of our love for God.

Buuuuuut, The new expanded version of the old laws is intended to capture the mind / heart. Remember to even look on a woman to lust after her is in fact the breaking of the law. So ultimately the law applies to the inward man just as it once applied to the outward man.

I think you may be talking about something entirely different to my use of the "heart". It's not just an inward, it's the desire... and Jesus illustrates here that the Law was not enough. For while a man may not have committed adultery or what-have-you with a woman, the fact they lusted after them shows God desired more than merely keeping the Law.

You can appreciate the Law, love how God designed it all and the like. And such may make you, perhaps like Gman, really find an inner love and desire to understand and read the old back into the new and new in light of the old... God might work with someone to appreciate philosophy, or physical sciences in the light of God rather than the cultural traditions of Israel and all that embodies within God's plan. Just like one might eat to God, and another abstain from God -- each to their own are to be commended for it is all for God.

But the reality is, love it or not, we all stand opposed to the Law because we break it. It condemns us. Paul goes to great length in the first 2.5 chapters of Romans detailing just how dismal our situation us in light of the Law. Sure, you can appreciate it nonetheless in light of your salvation, but its power to obligate someone has been broken by Christ with grace.

Meaning, any good we do and show, is done out of love rather than obligation. Tithing is done out of love rather than obligation. Loving the Law (as Gman does) is done out of love rather than obligation. But the moment you begin saying we're still obligated to keep the Law, is the moment you step into legalism and teach a different Gospel to what I believe, a Gospel to the one I clearly see taught in Scripture and particularly as taught by Paul.

The remaining parts of your post, I don't see I necessarily disagree with anything. You seems to be largely agreeing with what I previously said; that the new is about an authentic love for God unlike the old which merely called for ritual and restraint.

RickD wrote:d.

Jewish weekly Sabbath=day of rest for the people of Israel
Ultimate Sabbath(Jesus Christ)=ultimate rest from working to try to gain God's approval.

It just doesn't work and is illogical to say that the Sabbaths or the other OT commandments only apply to the Israelis... It just doesn't work. We as Christians are also told to not to commit homosexuality, adultery, fornication, stealing and the likes 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which is also very much in step with the OT commandments. So are we free from obeying those commandments too? As for the Israeli covenants Christian’s graft into the commonwealth of Israel and are co-citizens of the promises Ephesians 2:11-13, 19... There are no covenants made with the gentiles. G-d made the covenants ONLY between the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-32, Hebrews 8:6-13). We simply graft into them... Big freaking deal.... Why is this such a panicking thing to do?

What is all this fear? It's not like we are told to sacrifice our firstborn or something... I'm just having the hardest time wondering why this is so hard to do.. Take a day off work. Who cares??? Want me to take a stupid day off work? Gladly.... Want it on Saturday? Fine... Where do I sign? Now I have an excuse when someone tells me to mow the lawn on Saturday..

Plus I want to be attached to Israel anyways... It's where all the smart Bible geeks live..

Kurieuo wrote: I think you may be talking about something entirely different to my use of the "heart". It's not just an inward, it's the desire... and Jesus illustrates here that the Law was not enough. For while a man may not have committed adultery or what-have-you with a woman, the fact they lusted after them shows God desired more than merely keeping the Law.

Yes... But just because we can't fulfill them doesn't mean we simply chuck them to outer space either.. There are about over 1000 commandments given to us by Christ and I'm certain He wouldn't have us do that as well http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-n ... t-commands

I don't think came to destroy or abolish any of His laws... That isn't the idea. Of course we can't impress G-d for trying to obey. We obey simply so that we try to live in unity with one another and our G-d. Not for salvation... So that we don't hurt one another or ourselves for that matter.. Do we think we are going to impress G-d for keeping the Sabbath? I would sure hope not... But I think we should do it regardless for corporate worship.. Otherwise we follow our own schedules and make our own rules..

Kurieuo wrote:But the reality is, love it or not, we all stand opposed to the Law because we break it. It condemns us. Paul goes to great length in the first 2.5 chapters of Romans detailing just how dismal our situation us in light of the Law. Sure, you can appreciate it nonetheless in light of your salvation, but its power to obligate someone has been broken by Christ with grace.

We certainly don't oppose G-d's teachings. And we certainly don't use it to justify ourselves... G-d's laws convict us of sin so that we try to stop sinning, and also find His grace.

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

Romans 7:1, “Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?”

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Kurieuo wrote:Meaning, any good we do and show, is done out of love rather than obligation. Tithing is done out of love rather than obligation. Loving the Law (as Gman does) is done out of love rather than obligation. But the moment you begin saying we're still obligated to keep the Law, is the moment you step into legalism and teach a different Gospel to what I believe, a Gospel to the one I clearly see taught in Scripture and particularly as taught by Paul.

The remaining parts of your post, I don't see I necessarily disagree with anything. You seems to be largely agreeing with what I previously said; that the new is about an authentic love for God unlike the old which merely called for ritual and restraint.

Yes.. We don't turn G-d's laws into legalism. That is the point I'm trying to make. By the way, I'm not a master on the law nor am I'm implying that I obey it or understand it all for that matter.. But the concept of it is that our faith, if it is true faith, will somehow parallel with it when we are in step with our creator and neighbor.

Gman wrote:

It just doesn't work and is illogical to say that the Sabbaths or the other OT commandments only apply to the Israelis... It just doesn't work. We as Christians are also told to not to commit homosexuality, adultery, fornication, stealing and the likes 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 which is also very much in step with the OT commandments. So are we free from obeying those commandments too?

G, it doesn't matter if we are told not to do this or that. What matters is Christ living in us, transforming us. Claiming believers have to follow OT laws, is no different than any other religion that tells us not to do bad things. G, you do understand the difference between every religion in the world where there are laws people are told to follow and have no way to possibly follow them because all people are sinners, and true Christianity, where God Himself indwells a believer, gives the believer a desire to love Him and others, and actually transforms a believer, and frees him from sin?

Romans 7:1-6 is a perfect illustration of how the believer is free from the law and life by the flesh. And how a believer is joined to Christ so we live and serve by the spirit, and not by the letter of the law.

Romans 7:1-6
Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Gman wrote:
So are we free from obeying those commandments too?

G, for you to say such a thing leads me to think that you really have no idea about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

Gman wrote:
There are no covenants made with the gentiles.

G, are you sure you want to go with this? Scripture says otherwise:

Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The new covenant under Jesus Christ, is for all who believe.

Gman wrote:
What is all this fear? It's not like we are told to sacrifice or firstborn or something... I'm just having the hardest time wondering why this is so hard to do..

G, I have absolutely no fear of failure to follow the law, because Christ fulfilled the law, and my faith is in Him, not in my ability to follow the law. G, if we fail at any point in following the law, we fail at following the law. If it was easy to follow the law like you say, then why did Christ have to die? If we could show God how much we love Him by following the law, then why did Christ have to die?

Gman wrote:
Of course we can't impress G-d for trying to obey. We obey simply so that we try to live in unity with one another and our G-d.

G, not to beat a dead horse, but trying to follow laws isn't what unites us with other believers and God. Christ's sacrifice unites us with God, and our faith in Christ unites us with other believers.

Gman wrote:
G-d's laws convict us of sin so that we try to stop sinning,

G, that is religion, not life in the Spirit by faith in Christ. WE CANNOT STOP SINNING NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TRY!!! THAT IS WHY CHRIST CAME!!!! we have no power to stop sinning, that's God's job to transform us.
God's laws convict us of sin, and shows us we cannot stop sinning, so we need Jesus Christ!

Gman wrote:
Yes.. We don't turn G-d's laws into legalism. That is the point I'm trying to make.

You're not making your point very well then, by telling other believers they are sinning if they eat pork, and have to stop working on Saturday. That IS legalism.

Gman wrote:
By the way, I'm not a master on the law nor am I'm implying that I obey it or understand it all for that matter..

Nobody can obey it. That's the whole point of Jesus Christ dying for us!!!

Gman wrote:
But the concept of it is that our faith, if it is true faith, will somehow parallel with it when we are in step with our creator and neighbor.

If we have a true faith, we will love God and our neighbor more as God transforms us...whether or not we eat pork, has no bearing on our faith in Christ.

A serial killer named Henry Lucas, who also killed his mother, was executed about 10 or 20 years ago. Well before his execution he bragged that he had converted to Christianity. I believe he said that he was a "born again" Christian (although I cannot prove he used the words "born again"). A television documentary on him added, though, that Lucas definitely did say, after his "conversion," "I CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT I WILL NOT KILL AGAIN."

You people who don't think a lack of obedience to certain divine laws can jeopardize your salvation, is that really the kind of person you want running around in Heaven and on the earth for all eternity, the Henry Lucases I just mentioned? There must be a kind of minimal criteria, some kind of reasonable law keeping, some kind of test, to keep certain people out of God's KIngdom, permanently.

Gman wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:But the reality is, love it or not, we all stand opposed to the Law because we break it. It condemns us. Paul goes to great length in the first 2.5 chapters of Romans detailing just how dismal our situation us in light of the Law. Sure, you can appreciate it nonetheless in light of your salvation, but its power to obligate someone has been broken by Christ with grace.

We certainly don't oppose G-d's teachings. And we certainly don't use it to justify ourselves... G-d's laws convict us of sin so that we try to stop sinning, and also find His grace.

The part in bold, I believe is not true.

The Law was to reveal us sinners and opposed to God (Romans 3:20). We read in Romans 2:6-8 that God '"will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.' The kicker is, "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:12) We're ALL law-breakers.

Therefore, based on works, none of us deserve "glory, honor and immortality" -- none of us can attain it by keeping the Law. Therefore, "stopping sinning" doesn't matter. That is not why God's laws convict us of sin. Brand me a heretic, but it isn't to stop sin, or even so we can try to stop.

God's law only served to make us conscious to our sin, so that we can admit to our frailty and need for a cure. That cure is Christ Himself. And the "free grace" (you: whatever that means -- me: whatever you mean by that!?) is God freely coming down to Earth and taking on human form in Christ, to associate with humanity in order to become humanities kinsmen redeemer who frees us from our sin and penalty of God's righteous wrath. It is something entirely on God's part, and nothing on ours. That is what I mean by "free grace". Free Grace = Our justification despite our sin through the redemption that comes through Christ. (Romans 3:24)

God's laws don't convict us today -- for it holds no power to those who are in Christ. Their purpose has been served and they remain because without them we would not be condemned and therefore the redemption offered in Christ is bankrupt. However, they do not remain to continue convicting us of sin, and certainly not so we can stop sinning or try to stop.

The guide for those in Christ is no longer built upon the letter of Law, but rather upon love where a true following happens. It is love that makes us want to stop sinning, hurting God, hurting others, to be a better person, to sacrifice our life for others. We are free in love, knowing that while we may continue sinning and have struggles, God still loves us and we still love Him.

“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:55-57)

Now, I'm feeling a bit Jac-like in stating this, if you or anyone else here believes the Law obligates us once we are Christian, then you have a different Gospel to what I believe. I couldn't be more firm on this point. If we're obligated to keep God's laws, or even try to keep God's laws after coming to Christ, then we're no better off than the many other religions out there trying to cleanse themselves through their strange rites and rituals. The meaning of freedom in Christ is lost; the value of our love for God coming from our own hearts is robbed.

If you love to worship on a Saturday, great. If you love to worship on a Sunday, cool. If you love to worship on a Monday because you work Saturday and Sunday's, no problem. If in your mind you cringed or thought "o-ohhh" as though there was something wrong with the last, then you may have problems accepting the freedom we now have in Christ. A freedom based upon the law of love upon which the Sabbath itself hangs, and which is thereby fulfilled regardless of what day one worships God out of their love for Him.

RickD wrote: G, it doesn't matter if we are told not to do this or that. What matters is Christ living in us, transforming us. Claiming believers have to follow OT laws, is no different than any other religion that tells us not to do bad things. G, you do understand the difference between every religion in the world where there are laws people are told to follow and have no way to possibly follow them because all people are sinners, and true Christianity, where God Himself indwells a believer, gives the believer a desire to love Him and others, and actually transforms a believer, and frees him from sin?

Romans 7:1-6 is a perfect illustration of how the believer is free from the law and life by the flesh. And how a believer is joined to Christ so we live and serve by the spirit, and not by the letter of the law.

RickD wrote:G, for you to say such a thing leads me to think that you really have no idea about the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes.. Again you speak of Christ and free love... But you cannot describe it... You have no template of what it means to sin... Therefore you can't tell us what grace it either... What we are saved from or the Holy Spirit either..

RickD wrote:G, are you sure you want to go with this? Scripture says otherwise:

Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The new covenant under Jesus Christ, is for all who believe.

Yes... And that covenant is part of Israel... Christ came for the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24). Not Guam.. Not Las Vegas... Not Hawaii.. etc.

RickD wrote:G, I have absolutely no fear of failure to follow the law, because Christ fulfilled the law, and my faith is in Him, not in my ability to follow the law. G, if we fail at any point in following the law, we fail at following the law. If it was easy to follow the law like you say, then why did Christ have to die? If we could show God how much we love Him by following the law, then why did Christ have to die?

Yes you do Rick.. It appears that you are scared of it.. Taking a day off of work like the sabbath requires... Is..... Easy.... Extremely easy.

RickD wrote:G, not to beat a dead horse, but trying to follow laws isn't what unites us with other believers and God. Christ's sacrifice unites us with God, and our faith in Christ unites us with other believers.

Trying to follow the law helps us to identify sin in our lives... So that we can attain His mercy. Not to attain salvation.. But so that we have some harmony with one another.. And G-d. Hopefully.. But hey if you want to make up your own rules... Please be my guest.

RickD wrote:G, that is religion, not life in the Spirit by faith in Christ. WE CANNOT STOP SINNING NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TRY!!! THAT IS WHY CHRIST CAME!!!! we have no power to stop sinning, that's God's job to transform us.
God's laws convict us of sin, and shows us we cannot stop sinning, so we need Jesus Christ!

Yes... It appears that you are finally getting it??? But just because we can't full those commandments means we toss them all away? No... That was never the point. We stop sinning so that we have our sanity back..

RickD wrote:You're not making your point very well then, by telling other believers they are sinning if they eat pork, and have to stop working on Saturday. That IS legalism.

Nobody can obey it. That's the whole point of Jesus Christ dying for us!!

Again.. I'm not saying that you will loose your salvation if you eat pork.... But apparently G-d wanted us to stay way from it.. So? It tastes crappy to me anyway. So what..

RickD wrote:If we have a true faith, we will love God and our neighbor more as God transforms us...whether or not we eat pork, has no bearing on our faith in Christ.

How it's all intertwined I don't know... We follow it even if we don't completely understand although I've given you some real good reasons..

Wolfgang wrote:A serial killer named Henry Lucas, who also killed his mother, was executed about 10 or 20 years ago. Well before his execution he bragged that he had converted to Christianity. I believe he said that he was a "born again" Christian (although I cannot prove he used the words "born again"). A television documentary on him added, though, that Lucas definitely did say, after his "conversion," "I CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT I WILL NOT KILL AGAIN."

You people who don't think a lack of obedience to certain divine laws can jeopardize your salvation, is that really the kind of person you want running around in Heaven and on the earth for all eternity, the Henry Lucases I just mentioned? There must be a kind of minimal criteria, some kind of reasonable law keeping, some kind of test, to keep certain people out of God's KIngdom, permanently.

"What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar." (Romans 3:3-4)

Gman wrote:
Yes you do Rick.. It appears that you are scared of it.. Taking a day off of work like the sabbath requires... Is..... Easy.... Extremely easy.

G, have you ever looked at what was required to follow the Sabbath the way the law was written? Easy?
G, if you don't follow the sabbath law as it was written, you're not really following the sabbath. You're making your own rules. Let's start with the basics. The sabbath starts at sundown on Friday in Jerusalem, right? This Friday, sunset in Jerusalem is at 4:54 pm. Because northern California is 10 hours behind Jerusalem, that means sabbath begins at 6:54 AM Friday morning, for you. So tell me G, will you begin sabbath at 6:54AM this Friday? What do you mean, no? I thought you said it was easy? You don't follow the sabbath, you follow the "Gman day off" rule.

We stop sinning so that we have our sanity back..

Is that in the new or old testament? I need to write this down...hold on a minute...stop sinning=regain sanity. Got it.

RickD wrote:
You're not making your point very well then, by telling other believers they are sinning if they eat pork, and have to stop working on Saturday. That IS legalism.

Nobody can obey it. That's the whole point of Jesus Christ dying for us!!

Gman wrote:
Again.. I'm not saying that you will loose your salvation if you eat pork.... But apparently G-d wanted us to stay way from it.. So? It tastes crappy to me anyway. So what..

But you're saying I'm sinning if I eat pork. That's legalism, G.

Kurieuo wrote:

Gman wrote:
We certainly don't oppose G-d's teachings. And we certainly don't use it to justify ourselves... G-d's laws convict us of sin so that we try to stop sinning, and also find His grace.

The part in bold, I believe is not true.

Yes.. I believe we have a disagreement... Christ was very adamant that we stop sinning anymore. John 8:11 was very clear that the adulteress stop sinning after He forgave her.

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Therefore a loving G-d also tells us to stop sinning after we have committed something. Why? Because it's the right thing to do...

Kurieuo wrote:The Law was to reveal us sinners and opposed to God (Romans 3:20). We read in Romans 2:6-8 that God '"will repay each person according to what they have done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.' The kicker is, "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” (Romans 3:12) We're ALL law-breakers.

Again... We maybe lawbreakers but that doesn't mean that gives us the right to simply cast all of His ways down the toilet either... In fact.. It appears that G-d still would want us to obey Him and stop sinning as well..

John 8:51
Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

John 14:23
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Matthew 18:6-9,
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes! If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.”

Acts 7:53
you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

1 John 2:5
But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:

Kurieuo wrote:Therefore, based on works, none of us deserve "glory, honor and immortality" -- none of us can attain it by keeping the Law. Therefore, "stopping sinning" doesn't matter. That is not why God's laws convict us of sin. Brand me a heretic, but it isn't to stop sin, or even so we can try to stop.

Of course we by our evil nature will still sin every once in awhile... The point however is to convict ourselves and try to correct the problem... This is very clear in Romans.

Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.”

We still need training.....

Kurieuo wrote:God's law only served to make us conscious to our sin, so that we can admit to our frailty and need for a cure. That cure is Christ Himself. And the "free grace" (you: whatever that means -- me: whatever you mean by that!?) is God freely coming down to Earth and taking on human form in Christ, to associate with humanity in order to become humanities kinsmen redeemer who frees us from our sin and penalty of God's righteous wrath. It is something entirely on God's part, and nothing on ours. That is what I mean by "free grace". Free Grace = Our justification despite our sin through the redemption that comes through Christ. (Romans 3:24)

Sure it is Christ working through the Holy Spirit that cleans us and correct us... But we correct ourselves because we would want to out of love... Not hatred or pride or any favors..

Kurieuo wrote:God's laws don't convict us today -- for it holds no power to those who are in Christ. Their purpose has been served and they remain because without them we would not be condemned and therefore the redemption offered in Christ is bankrupt. However, they do not remain to continue convicting us of sin, and certainly not so we can stop sinning or try to stop.

Yes we disagree... By turning from our sin shows that we want to stay with Him and obey. And be separate from the worldly way of sin.. Not condemn.. Live in Him..

2 Corinthians 6:17-18, “Therefore ‘Come out from among them And be separate,’ says the Lord. ‘Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters,’ Says the LORD Almighty.”

2 Corinthians 7:1, “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

2 Corinthians 7:10, “For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.”

2 Corinthians 13:5-6, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you —unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test.

Galatians 6:3-5 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

Kurieuo wrote:The guide for those in Christ is no longer built upon the letter of Law, but rather upon love where a true following happens. It is love that makes us want to stop sinning, hurting God, hurting others, to be a better person, to sacrifice our life for others. We are free in love, knowing that while we may continue sinning and have struggles, God still loves us and we still love Him.

“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:55-57)

Now, I'm feeling a bit Jac-like in stating this, if you or anyone else here believes the Law obligates us once we are Christian, then you have a different Gospel to what I believe. I couldn't be more firm on this point. If we're obligated to keep God's laws, or even try to keep God's laws after coming to Christ, then we're no better off than the many other religions out there trying to cleanse themselves through their strange rites and rituals. The meaning of freedom in Christ is lost; the value of our love for God coming from our own hearts is robbed.

If you want to call G-d's festivals weird or wacky... That is fine by me k. We follow because we need direction in our lives... We obey because we want to... We want to be separate from the world and be united under Him...

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commands;

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

Kurieuo wrote:If you love to worship on a Saturday, great. If you love to worship on a Sunday, cool. If you love to worship on a Monday because you work Saturday and Sunday's, no problem. If in your mind you cringed or thought "o-ohhh" as though there was something wrong with the last, then you may have problems accepting the freedom we now have in Christ. A freedom based upon the law of love upon which the Sabbath itself hangs, and which is thereby fulfilled regardless of what day one worships God out of their love for Him.

Yes.. I believe we want to worship on a certain day so that it creates unity in the body of Christ. If we pick and choose our own days... That creates division.. So if you want to choose and make up your own ways, again it's fine be me.. Your choice.

Gman wrote:
If you want to call G-d's festivals weird or wacky... That is fine by me k. We follow because we need direction in our lives... We obey because we want to... We want to be separate from the world and be united under Him...

So, we follow OT laws so we can get direction in our lives? The indwelling Holy Spirit gives believers direction, G. Did you miss that INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT point?

Gman wrote:
Yes.. I believe we want to worship on a certain day so that it creates unity in the body of Christ. If we pick and choose our own days... That creates division.. So if you want to choose and make up your own ways, again it's fine be me.. Your choice.

Don't forget G, sabbath starts promptly at 6:54 am your time this Friday. You know, for unity.

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:
Yes you do Rick.. It appears that you are scared of it.. Taking a day off of work like the sabbath requires... Is..... Easy.... Extremely easy.

G, have you ever looked at what was required to follow the Sabbath the way the law was written? Easy?
G, if you don't follow the sabbath law as it was written, you're not really following the sabbath. You're making your own rules. Let's start with the basics. The sabbath starts at sundown on Friday in Jerusalem, right? This Friday, sunset in Jerusalem is at 4:54 pm. Because northern California is 10 hours behind Jerusalem, that means sabbath begins at 6:54 AM Friday morning, for you. So tell me G, will you begin sabbath at 6:54AM this Friday? What do you mean, no? I thought you said it was easy? You don't follow the sabbath, you follow the "Gman day off" rule.

No... We follow the local times here in the areas where we live.. Why? Again I believe it's to promote unity.. Where all the believers can get together and pray together... Do you like unity?

If you want to create your own rules then the answer is simple.. Make up your own rules... Your own laws. Build your own empire.. Free grace... Whatever it is... Go for free grace..

RickD wrote:Is that in the new or old testament? I need to write this down...hold on a minute...stop sinning=regain sanity. Got it.

Whatever Rick..

RickD wrote:
You're not making your point very well then, by telling other believers they are sinning if they eat pork, and have to stop working on Saturday. That IS legalism.

Nobody can obey it. That's the whole point of Jesus Christ dying for us!!

We can't obey so we destroy all laws?? Sure everything is legalism... Stop signs are legalism... Policemen are legalism.. Sneezing is legalism... Ok. It's all part of a legalistic plot.. To control the world.. Run away...

RickD wrote: But you're saying I'm sinning if I eat pork. That's legalism, G.

I didn't write G-d's laws.. If you have a problem with it then take it up with Him.. Again I have told you many times why I think we should obey it..

RickD wrote:So, we follow OT laws so we can get direction in our lives? The indwelling Holy Spirit gives believers direction, G. Did you miss that INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT point?

And what direction would that be? Remember you CANNOT use any Biblical reference for this direction because it is legalism...

RickD wrote:Don't forget G, sabbath starts promptly at 6:54 am your time this Friday. You know, for unity.

Thanks for reminding me.. I can't wait to stop working for an entire day..