Evidence for God from Science

Now the god of the bible seems to think its fine back then to own people as property and fine to beat them as long as they don't die immediately. Do you agree that treating people like that in those times is fine?

Simple question.

outlaw wrote:I acknowledged the fact that I inadvertently buy products from time to time that may come from exploited employees, and if the law wants to see me as a slave owner then they can come and arrest me . Your drawing a long bow with this argument as I said I'm not keeping people as property I have no direct control over the treatment of these people I'm not even sure these people are being forced against their will to work in these places. I am not treating anyone that I have contact with as a slave.

Hypocrite. You ''inadvertently buy products from time to time that 'may' come from exploited employees'' Hypocrite! You have slaves working for you yet somehow you consider yourself righteous by self-serving ignorance. CUT THE CRAP!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

outlaw wrote:I acknowledged the fact that I inadvertently buy products from time to time that may come from exploited employees, and if the law wants to see me as a slave owner then they can come and arrest me . Your drawing a long bow with this argument as I said I'm not keeping people as property I have no direct control over the treatment of these people I'm not even sure these people are being forced against their will to work in these places. I am not treating anyone that I have contact with as a slave.

Hypocrite. You ''inadvertently buy products from time to time that 'may' come from exploited employees'' Hypocrite! You have slaves working for you yet somehow you consider yourself righteous by self-serving ignorance. CUT THE CRAP!

FL

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slaveholder

No i don't believe i fit that description, your making up your own version of a slave owner and trying to tell me i'm one. CUT THE CRAP!

outlaw wrote:No i don't believe i fit that description, your making up your own version of a slave owner and trying to tell me i'm one. CUT THE CRAP!

Another example of you not understanding what is plainly written: I didn't say you were a slave owner, Einstein. We in rich countries have slaves working for us . Your maintanance of slave labor in poor countries is what http://www.slaveryfootprint.org measures. Why not tell us how many slaves work for you? ...do the test! Hiding behind a dictionary definition to absolve yourself just confirms your hypocrisy.

FL

Must we resort to the average mind back and forth in a dialogue?

That is, if we can still call it a dialogue(?)

On the one side we have outlaw spamming every forum topic available, instead of being respectful of Christian topic dialogues.

On the other side we have "US" trying to hammer into his (outlaw) head our "faith" and understanding of our God of the Bible

I think we all need to chill out and back off a little., take a time out

I propose that we stop butting heads and slow down with our responses., be more civilized if you will .

Outlaw, you too must back off a little and be willing to consider what the other side is saying, otherwise why remain in this site?

Lonewolf wrote:Must we resort to the average mind back and forth in a dialogue?

That is, if we can still call it a dialogue(?)

On the one side we have outlaw spamming every forum topic available, instead of being respectful of Christian topic dialogues.

On the other side we have "US" trying to hammer into his (outlaw) head our "faith" and understanding of our God of the Bible

I think we all need to chill out and back off a little., take a time out

I propose that we stop butting heads and slow down with our responses., be more civilized if you will .

Outlaw, you too must back off a little and be willing to consider what the other side is saying, otherwise why remain in this site?

You don't get it, Lonewolf. I'm not angry, I don't get angry. I'm showing outlaw that biblical slavery is very much like the slavery that he benefits from now and which maintains his cushy lifestyle.

Slavery is the natural condition of man. That is the essence of the biblical message. Slavery existed in biblical days just as much as it exists today. Outlaw - like me, like you - benefits from the exploitation that goes on in the Third World, but hypocrites like outlaw don't want to admit it. Actually, they can't admit it because their whole anti-Bible message would fall apart. So they lie and pretend that they are innocent. Innocent hypocrites!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
You don't get it, Lonewolf. I'm not angry, I don't get angry. I'm showing outlaw that biblical slavery is very much like the slavery that he benefits from now and which maintains his cushy lifestyle.

Slavery is the natural condition of man. That is the essence of the biblical message. Slavery existed in biblical days just as much as it exists today. Outlaw - like me, like you - benefits from the exploitation that goes on in the Third World, but hypocrites like outlaw don't want to admit it. Actually, they can't admit it because their whole anti-Bible message would fall apart. So they lie and pretend that they are innocent. Innocent hypocrites!

FL

I get it, i still have a few brain cells left still active in that gray matter inside my skull.

We would not need Christ to lead us from sheol unless we owed death something; thus naturally there's a condition which we are in, decaying day by day, and unless God intervened, the slavery would continue even unto death.

In terms of exploitation and undercover slavery still going on in this world, well, i probably feel that more that other's in here, and it doesn't even have to happen in third world countries, for it exists even here in Amerika!

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
You don't get it, Lonewolf. I'm not angry, I don't get angry. I'm showing outlaw that biblical slavery is very much like the slavery that he benefits from now and which maintains his cushy lifestyle.

Slavery is the natural condition of man. That is the essence of the biblical message. Slavery existed in biblical days just as much as it exists today. Outlaw - like me, like you - benefits from the exploitation that goes on in the Third World, but hypocrites like outlaw don't want to admit it. Actually, they can't admit it because their whole anti-Bible message would fall apart. So they lie and pretend that they are innocent. Innocent hypocrites!

FL

I get it, i still have a few brain cells left still active in that gray matter inside my skull.

We would not need Christ to lead us from sheol unless we owed death something; thus naturally there's a condition which we live under; one that is decaying day by day, and unless God intervened, that slavery would continue even unto death.

In terms of exploitation and undercover slavery still going on in this world, well, i probably feel that more than other's in this here forum, and it doesn't even have to happen in third world countries, for it exists even here in Amerika!

Lonewolf wrote:In terms of exploitation and undercover slavery still going on in this world, well, i probably feel that more than other's in this here forum, and it doesn't even have to happen in third world countries, for it exists even here in Amerika!

You are right, slavery does exist in rich countries...

In the 1990s, I was a manufacturer of pyjamas for children and women. In order to keep my production costs low, my garments were sewn by illegal immigrants who worked in dank basements, garages and flophouses. I paid a pittance for the work they did. In order to make ends meet, a whole family had to work on my pyjama orders: husband, wife and children. I remeber going to one family who had set up their ''production facility'' in their living room: the man was sewing buttons, the wife was sewing the garments together, a child of about 6 was putting the garments on hangars, an older child was bagging them, and a little kid who looked like 4 or 5 years old was cutting loose threads.

Did you read the above, outlaw? Do you still believe that you do not benefit from slavery?!

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

outlaw wrote:No i don't believe i fit that description, your making up your own version of a slave owner and trying to tell me i'm one. CUT THE CRAP!

Another example of you not understanding what is plainly written: I didn't say you were a slave owner, Einstein. We in rich countries have slaves working for us . Your maintanance of slave labor in poor countries is what http://www.slaveryfootprint.org measures. Why not tell us how many slaves work for you? ...do the test! Hiding behind a dictionary definition to absolve yourself just confirms your hypocrisy.

FL

I tried to do the test the first time you posted it, I can't get past the first part where you enter your city, the next screen just doesn't show I'm just stuck on that page.
I understand that in our modern world of cheap and convenient we have sold ourselves out and as a result of mass produced products and a global economy people are working for peanuts so others can enjoy a life of convenience, and I dislike it just as much as you do, I myself have been a victim of it though not to the extent of of people in other countries, but I work in oil refineries which are major hazard facilities I basically work inside a giant chemistry set with boiling hot fluids pumping through pipes under enormous amounts of pressure that if come in contact with your skin will kill you in a matter of minutes, (if things go wrong in a refinery you don't go home the way you arrived, quite possibly no one goes home at all) there are gasses in the air that will do the same (h2s) invisible tasteless gas that destroys your sense of smell so you don't know your inhaling it until it's too late, i sometimes work in the acid plant (alkyalation unit) which when performing maintenance you are must wear an air fed fullbody suit for protection and after you exit you must be washed down with an ash solution to due neutralize any acid you may have come in contact with, the alky unit is the most deadly part of the whole plant it contains (HF) hydrofloric acid, as well as a number of other potentially fatal chemicals and gases, there's pyrophoric scale which spontaneously combusts when exposed to oxygen, the last thing you want is a fire in an oil refinery.

Now my point is I get exploited working in this place, I put my life at risk everyday more than the average person would in their jobs, without even going into the danger zone, just parking in the carpark I'm potentially at risk, i often work in confined space which has its own risks i work alongside millions of litres of fuel with a grinder that throws sparks, I eat lunch in a blast proof container, where do you eat lunch? I feel i don't get compensated for the risk i put myself in the middle of everyday. The company I work for contract me out to a large multinational oil and gas company that makes squillions of dollars, they charge that company probably three times more than they pay me, they're making more money from me than I am receiving and their sitting in air conditioned safety, I also get exploited when I put fuel in my car on the way to the place where I work which is the same place where the fuel is processed. Am i a slave to this company? sure in a sense, if i died in an accident on site they'd only be concerned that it looks bad on their safety record and how that effects their profit, i'd just be a statistic and i realise that even though they act like they care about my safety they really just care about how my safety reflects on their business.

But the way this is different from the bible slavery or exploitation is my boss doesn't own me as property or beat me, and I don't own or beat the people that work at sweatshops, I wish the world was different I wish they didn't have to. So even if I was able to give you a number (and I wish I could because Im interested to know myself ) I don't see how it matters though there's no comparison.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Lonewolf wrote:In terms of exploitation and undercover slavery still going on in this world, well, i probably feel that more than other's in this here forum, and it doesn't even have to happen in third world countries, for it exists even here in Amerika!

You are right, slavery does exist in rich countries...

In the 1990s, I was a manufacturer of pyjamas for children and women. In order to keep my production costs low, my garments were sewn by illegal immigrants who worked in dank basements, garages and flophouses. I paid a pittance for the work they did. In order to make ends meet, a whole family had to work on my pyjama orders: husband, wife and children. I remeber going to one family who had set up their ''production facility'' in their living room: the man was sewing buttons, the wife was sewing the garments together, a child of about 6 was putting the garments on hangars, an older child was bagging them, and a little kid who looked like 4 or 5 years old was cutting loose threads.

Did you read the above, outlaw? Do you still believe that you do not benefit from slavery?!

FL

I never denied it I acknowledged that some of the products I buy are a result of someone being exploited.
What I'm concerned with are gods rules regarding the treatment of slaves in that time and wheter or not they are acceptable to you, not the fact that he gave rules the rules themselves, are these the rules of a person you would call loving?

outlaw wrote:I tried to do the test the first time you posted it, I can't get past the first part where you enter your city, the next screen just doesn't show I'm just stuck on that page.

Oh...OK. You should have told me that a while ago. I would have stopped harrassing you.

I used to know a guy who cleaned the inside of those huge oil tanks in refineries by sandblasting. He made very big money but the frequent travel, the living in motels and being away from his family eventually got to him and he became a ''slave'' to pot and alcohol. I'm not saying that this is your situation, but your story reminded me of him. Which brings me to the point that slavery in the Bible takes mostly two forms*:

1. The Israelite who voluntarily enslaves himself to another Israelite.
2. The prisonner of war.

In Israel, in Bible times, humans were never bought and sold, they were never traded. Ancient Israel never had a commerce around slavery as the various European powers later did.** It is important for you to understand this point.

The Israelite who enslaved himself to another Israelite did so for a limited time, six years, after which he went free. The prisonner of war was the property of the master until set free, or unto death. In both cases, the rules in the Bible are there to formalize the treatment of the slaves belonging to the Israelites. A slave holder couldn't do as he wished with his slaves, he had to follow the rules set out in the Bible. If he didn't, there were consequences. By contrast, Roman & Greek slaves didn't have it so good:

The slave is seldom allowed to bring up children of his own for it is cheaper to buy a slave than to rear one. If the slave misbehaves, he is whipped; if he testifies he is tortured; when he is struck by a Freeman he must not defend himself... -The Life of Greece, Will Durant p.279, 280

If you can get Will Durant's The Life of Greece, I'd encourage you to read the whole section on slavery because you would understand quite quickly that slavery back then and the slavery we benefit from now is quite different. Slaves back then were better off than now. Things haven't gotten better for slaves, but much worse.

As for your question,

outlaw wrote:What I'm concerned with are gods rules regarding the treatment of slaves in that time and wheter or not they are acceptable to you, not the fact that he gave the rules themselves, are these the rules of a person you would call loving?

What does ''loving'' have to do with this? Does the lawyer who pleads your case have to love you? God is also a God of justice. The rules are there to guide the slave owner in the just treatment of his slaves. If those rules were applied to the slaves who work for us in Ouagadougou, things would be better for them.

FL

*there is a third form but it is not relevant to this topic.
**Joseph's sale by his brothers to the Ishmaelites is not commerce but opportunism.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

outlaw wrote:I tried to do the test the first time you posted it, I can't get past the first part where you enter your city, the next screen just doesn't show I'm just stuck on that page.

Oh...OK. You should have told me that a while ago. I would have stopped harrassing you.

I used to know a guy who cleaned the inside of those huge oil tanks in refineries by sandblasting. He made very big money but the frequent travel, the living in motels and being away from his family eventually got to him and he became a ''slave'' to pot and alcohol. I'm not saying that this is your situation, but your story reminded me of him. Which brings me to the point that slavery in the Bible takes mostly two forms*:

1. The Israelite who voluntarily enslaves himself to another Israelite.
2. The prisonner of war.

In Israel, in Bible times, humans were never bought and sold, they were never traded. Ancient Israel never had a commerce around slavery as the various European powers later did.** It is important for you to understand this point.

The Israelite who enslaved himself to another Israelite did so for a limited time, six years, after which he went free. The prisonner of war was the property of the master until set free, or unto death. In both cases, the rules in the Bible are there to formalize the treatment of the slaves belonging to the Israelites. A slave holder couldn't do as he wished with his slaves, he had to follow the rules set out in the Bible. If he didn't, there were consequences. By contrast, Roman & Greek slaves didn't have it so good:

The slave is seldom allowed to bring up children of his own for it is cheaper to buy a slave than to rear one. If the slave misbehaves, he is whipped; if he testifies he is tortured; when he is struck by a Freeman he must not defend himself... -The Life of Greece, Will Durant p.279, 280

If you can get Will Durant's The Life of Greece, I'd encourage you to read the whole section on slavery because you would understand quite quickly that slavery back then and the slavery we benefit from now is quite different. Slaves back then were better off than now. Things haven't gotten better for slaves, but much worse.

As for your question,

outlaw wrote:What I'm concerned with are gods rules regarding the treatment of slaves in that time and wheter or not they are acceptable to you, not the fact that he gave the rules themselves, are these the rules of a person you would call loving?

What does ''loving'' have to do with this? Does the lawyer who pleads your case have to love you? God is also a God of justice. The rules are there to guide the slave owner in the just treatment of his slaves. If those rules were applied to the slaves who work for us in Ouagadougou, things would be better for them.

FL

*there is a third form but it is not relevant to this topic.
**Joseph's sale by his brothers to the Ishmaelites is not commerce but opportunism.

Sorry I was going to mention the problem I had with the site but at that time I wasn't sure if you would have believed me.

I wouldn't call someone who makes those types of rules loving, these are not rules that a loving god would make in my opinion. They're also not what I would call just, because if these rules were just back then they should also be just now.
To me justice doesn't change
Do you think these rules are just now? if not why were they just then?
Thanks for the book references but I'm interested in your thoughts for now.

outlaw wrote:I wouldn't call someone who makes those types of rules loving, these are not rules that a loving god would make in my opinion. They're also not what I would call just, because if these rules were just back then they should also be just now.

Love is of little relevence here, if any. Rules exist to guide behavior. In France, the speed limit is 130km/h; my wife pointed to the center-mounted speedometer and said that I was going over 200. Shortly after, a policeman stopped me and said I was going 184km/h. Upon hearing my Canadian French accent, he softened up and gave me a stern warning but no speeding ticket. He didn't love me, and the law wasn't there to show its love to me. He stopped me because I was breaking the law and then he offered me his grace by not issuing a ticket. Had he decided to fine me, that would not have been from a lack of love either.

As for the rules for slave owners not being those that a ''loving god would make'' the problem you have is that they were made by a loving and just God. God's justice is what is being expressed by the rules (and penalties) in Exodus & Leviticus. Perfect love is also just and requires accountability from the lawbreaker. In other words, you break the rule, you pay the fine. What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook'' or what kind of man-made god would say to slave owners, ''OK, you killed your slave but I know you just flew off the handle and didn't mean to strangle him''...

The punishments were there to correct wayward slaves, and they are just. They set limits on the slave owner's fury and provide consequences should he abuse his charges.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

outlaw wrote:I wouldn't call someone who makes those types of rules loving, these are not rules that a loving god would make in my opinion. They're also not what I would call just, because if these rules were just back then they should also be just now.

Love is of little relevence here, if any. Rules exist to guide behavior. In France, the speed limit is 130km/h; my wife pointed to the center-mounted speedometer and said that I was going over 200. Shortly after, a policeman stopped me and said I was going 184km/h. Upon hearing my Canadian French accent, he softened up and gave me a stern warning but no speeding ticket. He didn't love me, and the law wasn't there to show its love to me. He stopped me because I was breaking the law and then he offered me his grace by not issuing a ticket. Had he decided to fine me, that would not have been from a lack of love either.

As for the rules for slave owners not being those that a ''loving god would make'' the problem you have is that they were made by a loving and just God. God's justice is what is being expressed by the rules (and penalties) in Exodus & Leviticus. Perfect love is also just and requires accountability from the lawbreaker. In other words, you break the rule, you pay the fine. What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook'' or what kind of man-made god would say to slave owners, ''OK, you killed your slave but I know you just flew off the handle and didn't mean to strangle him''...

The punishments were there to correct wayward slaves, and they are just. They set limits on the slave owner's fury and provide consequences should he abuse his charges.

FL

What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook''

Probably the same type of pinhead god that makes the rule that says death is the punishment for sin, then say to rule breakers, "Well, OK. since i love you, i'll let you off the hook"