B.W?
Do you consider the possibility that God will do everthing in His power to recover ALL of His lost sheep? I'm undecided about Hell, rapture etc etc but I have absolute faith that I am saved through my belief in Christ. When is the cut off point to when you need to acept Christ? Could it be at the doorway of Hell? Or is it in this lifetime?
Hel, to me, is life (or death) without Christ, and without knowing God's love.
Doctrine of Hell
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Storyteller
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
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Starhunter
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Do you have any animal rescue teams in your area? Tell them a couple of hell doctrines and then ask them if you can practice on their rescued animals, because you are like the god you believe in. Take care, because even the heathen know better than the average hallelujah camp.RickD wrote:Could you explain why you believe this attacks the character of God please?Starhunter wrote:Well said.
Truth in doctrine is important, because false doctrine creates a misrepresentation of the character of God.
I don't know of any doctrine which attacks the character of God like the lie of eternal torment and all of its associated errors.
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Starhunter
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
BW,
You say this whole thing just boils down to spiritual death, which is the cause of death, true,
but you are saying that hell is a place of spiritual death not a real death.
A spiritual death is not the penalty of sin, it is the sin, the penalty is death. Spiritual death is not a penalty, it is what sin does to the sinner.
If spiritual death is the penalty, then people have already paid for it, by sinning.
The text you keep quoting about whatever God does it is forever, that text or any others like it, do not say that sinners will live on and never perish? Where do you get that? The gospel is about saving people from perishing, not from separation which they already have.
The text Ecclesiastes 3:14 says that whatever God does cannot be changed. So if God says that the wicked will perish, and He destroys them, who will change that?
The trouble is people keep holding on to the false doctrine of an immortal soul/spirit/ghost or whatever.
"The soul that sinneth shall surely die" says God. Some people say "it will live on in its own torment of separation from God."
That's not scriptural.
Question "If Jesus paid the price for sin, He would have to be tormented by separation forever, He would still be there and not risen."
So did He pay that price or not?
No He did not pay that penalty, so why should the wicked live forever?
The penalty of sin is death and Jesus died. He did not cheat death and wander around as a spirit like the Mormons teach.
Real life
Real choices
Real mistakes
Real consequences
Real death
Real Savior
Real resurrection
Real new life
Or as some people will -
Real life
Real choices
Real mistakes
Real consequences
Unreal death - people live forever
Strange tricky savior - fakes death
Muddled resurrections - ghosts re inhabiting dead bodies etc
Weird new life - another dimension
Let's be real
You say this whole thing just boils down to spiritual death, which is the cause of death, true,
but you are saying that hell is a place of spiritual death not a real death.
A spiritual death is not the penalty of sin, it is the sin, the penalty is death. Spiritual death is not a penalty, it is what sin does to the sinner.
If spiritual death is the penalty, then people have already paid for it, by sinning.
The text you keep quoting about whatever God does it is forever, that text or any others like it, do not say that sinners will live on and never perish? Where do you get that? The gospel is about saving people from perishing, not from separation which they already have.
The text Ecclesiastes 3:14 says that whatever God does cannot be changed. So if God says that the wicked will perish, and He destroys them, who will change that?
The trouble is people keep holding on to the false doctrine of an immortal soul/spirit/ghost or whatever.
"The soul that sinneth shall surely die" says God. Some people say "it will live on in its own torment of separation from God."
That's not scriptural.
Question "If Jesus paid the price for sin, He would have to be tormented by separation forever, He would still be there and not risen."
So did He pay that price or not?
No He did not pay that penalty, so why should the wicked live forever?
The penalty of sin is death and Jesus died. He did not cheat death and wander around as a spirit like the Mormons teach.
Real life
Real choices
Real mistakes
Real consequences
Real death
Real Savior
Real resurrection
Real new life
Or as some people will -
Real life
Real choices
Real mistakes
Real consequences
Unreal death - people live forever
Strange tricky savior - fakes death
Muddled resurrections - ghosts re inhabiting dead bodies etc
Weird new life - another dimension
Let's be real
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RickD
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
What kind of an answer is that? I'm trying to see your pov. Trying to see if your argument makes sense.Starhunter wrote:Do you have any animal rescue teams in your area? Tell them a couple of hell doctrines and then ask them if you can practice on their rescued animals, because you are like the god you believe in. Take care, because even the heathen know better than the average hallelujah camp.RickD wrote:Could you explain why you believe this attacks the character of God please?Starhunter wrote:Well said.
Truth in doctrine is important, because false doctrine creates a misrepresentation of the character of God.
I don't know of any doctrine which attacks the character of God like the lie of eternal torment and all of its associated errors.
That lack of an answer is not good enough. When you claim something attacks the character of God, you need to be willing to explain why.
Please answer the question.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Katabole
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
I would like to hear Starhunter's answer as well Rick but I can give my own response:RickD wrote:Could you explain why you believe this attacks the character of God please?Starhunter wrote:Well said.
Truth in doctrine is important, because false doctrine creates a misrepresentation of the character of God.
I don't know of any doctrine which attacks the character of God like the lie of eternal torment and all of its associated errors.
It matters because Christians speak in God's name.
If we tell people, "I'm telling you what God says because God's exact message on this subject is written in the Bible", then we need to be really careful to say what God is really saying from all the passages with the common Biblical theme of the future of the wicked. There are plenty of passages in the Bible that point out that God is seriously displeased with people who claim that "God said it" when God never said it, "it is written", when it was never written, "it is implied", when it was never implied and "it entered God's mind", when it never entered God's mind.
It matters because it impacts evangelism.
1 Cor 12:28 claims that God appointed apostles, prophets teachers etc. There are many atheists and agnostics when upon hearing the preached Word cannot accept the Christian doctrine of Hell. Some of us know this from personal experience. This does not mean we should change the doctrine because some people do not like it or cannot accept it. If the Bible teaches the traditional view, then that is what we should teach and say, no matter what the result or the reaction. But if the Bible doesn't teach it, then that is a great reason for changing it and in fact dismissing it entirely as a false doctrine because it is an impediment to evangelism.
It matter because it speaks about God's character.
If the traditional doctrine is indeed what the Bible teaches, then it doesn't matter what I subjectively think about it, whether that is good or bad, just or unjust. God is God. On the other hand if what the Bible really teaches is NOT the traditional doctrine, then it is a terrible slander against God, claiming that He will keep souls alive forever to torment them without end. If the traditional view is not what God claims in the Bible, then how do you think God feels when Christian preachers and Bible teachers claim that is really what He is going to do, especially when people reject Christianity because of the traditional doctrine? The Bible claims judgment begins at the house of God. (1 Pet 4:17). How do you think a Christian preacher or Bible teacher is going to react when they stand before God, only to be told that the doctrine that they spent their life preaching as truth was not representative of God's character and utterly false?
I believe the best approach would be for Bible teachers and Christian preachers to teach all three views, regardless of what their personal view is.
If an inquiring mind searching for spiritual truth asks, "What does the Bible say about what happens to people after death who reject Christ?" then Christian preachers and Bible teachers should respond with the rebuttal that there are essentially three views throughout the history of Christendom. There is the doctrine of unending conscious torment. There is the doctrine of universal restoration. And there is the doctrine of annihilationism.
All three views should be thoroughly and robustly taught without bias or pandering and then let the inquiring person that hears the answers decide for themselves as to where does the evidence lead and what they believe the correct response should be.
There are two types of people in our world: those who believe in Christ and those who will.
If Christianity is a man-made religion, then why is its doctrine vehemently against all of man's desires?
Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37
If Christianity is a man-made religion, then why is its doctrine vehemently against all of man's desires?
Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37
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Starhunter
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Protracted and unwarranted suffering and torture is not done by God.RickD wrote:
What kind of an answer is that? I'm trying to see your pov. Trying to see if your argument makes sense.
That lack of an answer is not good enough. When you claim something attacks the character of God, you need to be willing to explain why.
Please answer the question.
It is a Satanic trait.
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RickD
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
First, you are assuming suffering in hell is unwarranted.Starhunter wrote:Protracted and unwarranted suffering and torture is not done by God.RickD wrote:
What kind of an answer is that? I'm trying to see your pov. Trying to see if your argument makes sense.
That lack of an answer is not good enough. When you claim something attacks the character of God, you need to be willing to explain why.
Please answer the question.
It is a Satanic trait.
Next, you are assuming that God is torturing those in hell.
On the first assumption, I'd disagree. Anyone who is in hell is there because it's warranted.
And on your next assumption, have you thought of the possibility that those in hell are suffering due to separation from God's love, and not because God is torturing them?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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Starhunter
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Rick D,
If you were in perfect health and had so much as a grain of sand in your shoes for ever, after a few months you would not want to live, it would be torture.
Now some would like to think that God is removed from the whole thing, by saying that the wicked torment themselves,
so you would have to assume that life to them is somehow naturally occurring. No, all life comes continuously from God, and so do the coping mechanisms, and the healing processes, and the developments. Nothing happens without God, nothing.
So if there is any continuation of life, it has to be on God's shoulders and responsibility.
And what is in it for God to have someone tortured, particularly because He was prepared to die for the lost?
All things were created for His joy in being able to share kindness and support. A place of hell has no pleasure for God, but agonizing pain. Christ recognized in the garden before His crucifixion, that the majority would not be saved by His sacrifice, because they could not care for truth and love. He knew they must perish, but He still went ahead in the hope that somehow the application of His sacrifice would save them. A God who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The day of execution is a funeral for God, not a party. There is no way, He would allow indiscriminate torture fall on any, it has to be equal and just. Even so a just punishment, God would prefer to prevent altogether if there was a way to do it.
I used the animal illustration, because even some hardened criminals would hate you if you caused suffering on a lesser creature, how much less does God want His lost creatures to be tortured, who by comparison are nothing?
He will let them know and feel in no uncertain terms what it means to betray love, and they will suffer in anguish, but they will also perish as soon as justice is met, but not a second longer.
If you were in perfect health and had so much as a grain of sand in your shoes for ever, after a few months you would not want to live, it would be torture.
Now some would like to think that God is removed from the whole thing, by saying that the wicked torment themselves,
so you would have to assume that life to them is somehow naturally occurring. No, all life comes continuously from God, and so do the coping mechanisms, and the healing processes, and the developments. Nothing happens without God, nothing.
So if there is any continuation of life, it has to be on God's shoulders and responsibility.
And what is in it for God to have someone tortured, particularly because He was prepared to die for the lost?
All things were created for His joy in being able to share kindness and support. A place of hell has no pleasure for God, but agonizing pain. Christ recognized in the garden before His crucifixion, that the majority would not be saved by His sacrifice, because they could not care for truth and love. He knew they must perish, but He still went ahead in the hope that somehow the application of His sacrifice would save them. A God who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The day of execution is a funeral for God, not a party. There is no way, He would allow indiscriminate torture fall on any, it has to be equal and just. Even so a just punishment, God would prefer to prevent altogether if there was a way to do it.
I used the animal illustration, because even some hardened criminals would hate you if you caused suffering on a lesser creature, how much less does God want His lost creatures to be tortured, who by comparison are nothing?
He will let them know and feel in no uncertain terms what it means to betray love, and they will suffer in anguish, but they will also perish as soon as justice is met, but not a second longer.
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B. W.
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Starhunter,
I respect your christian faith and know with absolute certainty things will be explained to you after in the afterlife concerning God's character not extinguishing life he gave into an non-existing state where one finds peace in oblivion. For to do so would cause God to deny himself and all he is according to his nature and character; that God will never do. I also understand how Christians like to think of mercy killing as justified and loving, yet, it is still murder nevertheless. Folks have inserted their human definition of love and made it into a reflection that defines God's love. That is great error. Human beings are born into this world and at that point of birth all are eternal beings due to God reneging on no gift. The most wicked of folks love their wickedness more than anything else and above all else and they will suffer in that wickedness in living state for eternity. Thus, there are absolute true consequences for rejecting the salvation offered by God to the fallen rebels in humanity.
Annihilationism only makes one feel good and for some, morally superior, providing an easy escape for the most wicked into the peace that oblivion brings. There are symbols used in the bible to convey profound truths. in Genesis chapter two and three the phrase surely Die in ancient Hebrew is the same word used twice DIE! DIE! added for emphasis as well as symbol of two deaths mentioned in Revelation's Book. Death is not soul sleep that brings peace of oblivion. Death is the entry way into a new lie more real than this mortal one we currently live. This flesh will die and we will awake into a new state of being and in that state to remain forever in, both sinner and saint. Recall that God is no respecter of persons nor shows personal favoritism. Annihilationism teaches that God is shows favoritism by allowing one group to eternally exist and another to find peace by the means of oblivion. One is denied life, God's gift of life, the other has it. Thus God is not a God of the living in the absolute sense, is he?
I suggest you review the phrases of eternal life (Zoe) and realize that God offers an escape from a certain eternal living fate to all humanity through Jesus Christ - it is eternal life with the Lord reconciled back to him and his original design. The unsaved have life that continues on too, however, in a state they so choose and want. In this God is also Just. I understand that for some this is hard to accept and as Christians we are under his Grace and on the same team. So with that, I know that because the doctrine of hell is hard to grasp I know the Lord in time, through grace will help believers in Jesus understand the deeper things of God such as eternal recompense and how God really is: God sovereign. I understand why folks like to air-condition hell but with that, the most ardent evil of people will mock knowing that they can truly get away with their crimes - eternally.
Think about it a bit more and blessings to you
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I respect your christian faith and know with absolute certainty things will be explained to you after in the afterlife concerning God's character not extinguishing life he gave into an non-existing state where one finds peace in oblivion. For to do so would cause God to deny himself and all he is according to his nature and character; that God will never do. I also understand how Christians like to think of mercy killing as justified and loving, yet, it is still murder nevertheless. Folks have inserted their human definition of love and made it into a reflection that defines God's love. That is great error. Human beings are born into this world and at that point of birth all are eternal beings due to God reneging on no gift. The most wicked of folks love their wickedness more than anything else and above all else and they will suffer in that wickedness in living state for eternity. Thus, there are absolute true consequences for rejecting the salvation offered by God to the fallen rebels in humanity.
Annihilationism only makes one feel good and for some, morally superior, providing an easy escape for the most wicked into the peace that oblivion brings. There are symbols used in the bible to convey profound truths. in Genesis chapter two and three the phrase surely Die in ancient Hebrew is the same word used twice DIE! DIE! added for emphasis as well as symbol of two deaths mentioned in Revelation's Book. Death is not soul sleep that brings peace of oblivion. Death is the entry way into a new lie more real than this mortal one we currently live. This flesh will die and we will awake into a new state of being and in that state to remain forever in, both sinner and saint. Recall that God is no respecter of persons nor shows personal favoritism. Annihilationism teaches that God is shows favoritism by allowing one group to eternally exist and another to find peace by the means of oblivion. One is denied life, God's gift of life, the other has it. Thus God is not a God of the living in the absolute sense, is he?
I suggest you review the phrases of eternal life (Zoe) and realize that God offers an escape from a certain eternal living fate to all humanity through Jesus Christ - it is eternal life with the Lord reconciled back to him and his original design. The unsaved have life that continues on too, however, in a state they so choose and want. In this God is also Just. I understand that for some this is hard to accept and as Christians we are under his Grace and on the same team. So with that, I know that because the doctrine of hell is hard to grasp I know the Lord in time, through grace will help believers in Jesus understand the deeper things of God such as eternal recompense and how God really is: God sovereign. I understand why folks like to air-condition hell but with that, the most ardent evil of people will mock knowing that they can truly get away with their crimes - eternally.
Think about it a bit more and blessings to you
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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Storyteller
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Now I really don't know what to think!
Is the eternal torment just seperation from God? (And to be fair, just is an understatement) or something else?
Are you condemned to hell eternally? Or is there a chance of redemption, even then?
Is the eternal torment just seperation from God? (And to be fair, just is an understatement) or something else?
Are you condemned to hell eternally? Or is there a chance of redemption, even then?
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
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tunde1992
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
My understanding is , once you die you have no more chances for redemption
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
-matthew 6:33
-matthew 6:33
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Storyteller
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Why?
Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?
Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?
Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Didn't Jesus go down into hell to preach? 1 Peter 3:19Storyteller wrote:Why?
Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?
Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
The verse is probably talking about us as prisoners and slaves to sin, but who knows............
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
Re: Doctrine of Hell
Jesus desended to hell to preach the Gospel to those who did not get a chance to hear Him while living.Danieltwotwenty wrote:Didn't Jesus go down into hell to preach? 1 Peter 3:19Storyteller wrote:Why?
Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?
Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
The verse is probably talking about us as prisoners and slaves to sin, but who knows............
Hebrews 9:27 says no, there is no redemption after death, only the judgement.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: Doctrine of Hell
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction.Byblos wrote:Jesus desended to hell to preach the Gospel to those who did not get a chance to hear Him while living.Danieltwotwenty wrote:Didn't Jesus go down into hell to preach? 1 Peter 3:19Storyteller wrote:Why?
Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?
Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
The verse is probably talking about us as prisoners and slaves to sin, but who knows............
Hebrews 9:27 says no, there is no redemption after death, only the judgement.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.