Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:49 am Consciousness and intelligence, while not material, cannot exist without a material being built to have the capacity for such things. And that means such beings need to first be created and designed - as neither the designs of the material being or their non-material capacity for self and otherwise awareness and thoughts could simply exist. And thus their non-material abilities (consciousness, intelligence, thoughts) would not otherwise exist.

Kid: What about spiritual beings?
Hypothetically, there can be spiritual beings that are sentient and have bodies without matter or antimatter.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:22 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:50 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:51 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:51 am

So it means that what makes up intelligence and consciousness must have always existed? yes?

Correct.

But they are NOT material?

No more than the color blue. IOW they are a description of material.

If consciousness and intelligence are immaterial, as we have agreed on, how can their properties by description of the material ??

Ken: If the person is the material, intelligence and consciousness are descriptions of the material/person.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pm

Ken: If the person is the material, intelligence and consciousness are descriptions of the material/person.

Not exactly, Ken. Intelligence and consciousness are byproducts / processing capabilities that are inherent in a material being that has been designed / created to have such processing abilities. Consciousness requires a material brain that both processes input and data per the body's senses, but that physical/material brain can also generate it's own thoughts to process. And intelligence is that innate ability to comprehend data in a useful manner for analysis, as well as to formulate possible responses as well as to determine physical responses once determined and desired. So, the idea that intelligence could precede the physical makes no sense whatsoever. Because without the physical, these non-physical things like intelligence and consciousness could not otherwise exist.

So, it's not enough to theorize that some non-intelligent things must be eternal. Because the construction of the universe required a creative Intelligent Designer necessary to produce the proper building blocks to bring the physical into reality, and the many complex processes and conditions that could support life. And THEN these things must be given sophisticated designs, engineering and necessary functionalities. So, something must have been eternal and massively intelligent - that could bring the physical into existence. As a massively complex universe that didn't exist physically didn't just pop into existence and then begin assembling itself with mind-blowing designs without an Intelligent Cause. That should be apparent to everyone, no matter what you call that Intelligent Source. Otherwise, you are back to Pop Metaphysics and magic, in which non-intelligent blind things somehow became intelligent - which they either already were or they couldn't develop it.

Nicki: Doesn't God have consciousness without a material brain, though? Your two paragraphs seem kind of at odds to me.

Ken: If the person is the material, intelligence and consciousness are descriptions of the material/person.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pmNot exactly, Ken. Intelligence and consciousness are byproducts / processing capabilities that are inherent in a material being that has been designed / created to have such processing abilities. Consciousness requires a material brain that both processes input and data per the body's senses, but that physical/material brain can also generate it's own thoughts to process. And intelligence is that innate ability to comprehend data in a useful manner for analysis, as well as to formulate possible responses as well as to determine physical responses once determined and desired. So, the idea that intelligence could precede the physical makes no sense whatsoever.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pmBecause without the physical, these non-physical things like intelligence and consciousness could not otherwise exist.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pmSo, it's not enough to theorize that some non-intelligent things must be eternal. Because the construction of the universe required a creative Intelligent Designer necessary to produce the proper building blocks to bring the physical into reality, and the many complex processes and conditions that could support life.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pmAnd THEN these things must be given sophisticated designs, engineering and necessary functionalities. So, something must have been eternal and massively intelligent - that could bring the physical into existence.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pmAs a massively complex universe that didn't exist physically didn't just pop into existence and then begin assembling itself with mind-blowing designs without an Intelligent Cause.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 pmThat should be apparent to everyone, no matter what you call that Intelligent Source. Otherwise, you are back to Pop Metaphysics and magic, in which non-intelligent blind things somehow became intelligent - which they either already were or they couldn't develop it.

Kenny wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:42 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:22 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:50 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:51 am
Correct.

But they are NOT material?

No more than the color blue. IOW they are a description of material.

If consciousness and intelligence are immaterial, as we have agreed on, how can their properties by description of the material ??

I kinda liked the response Philip gave, but here’s my take.
If the person is the material, intelligence and consciousness are descriptions of the material/person.

Kenny wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:42 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:38 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:22 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:50 am

But they are NOT material?

No more than the color blue. IOW they are a description of material.

If consciousness and intelligence are immaterial, as we have agreed on, how can their properties by description of the material ??

I kinda liked the response Philip gave, but here’s my take.
If the person is the material, intelligence and consciousness are descriptions of the material/person.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:01 am So, consciousness and intelligence are immaterial things that describe something?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:01 am Where did they come from?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:01 am You keep saying that we are making a lot of assumptions about the universe that you don't, well, considering that we know so very little about the universe, why do you assume that all there is in the universe is material?

I wouldn't call them things, they are descriptions of things that exist. Consider a human. He is described as a man because he has male sex organs, he is considered a conscious being because he is aware of his surroundings, he is considered omnivore because he eats meat and vegetables, and he is considered intelligent because he has the ability to obtain knowledge and apply it to his life. These are all descriptions of the human; these descriptions only exist in the context of describing him.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:23 am

I wouldn't call them things, they are descriptions of things that exist. Consider a human. He is described as a man because he has male sex organs, he is considered a conscious being because he is aware of his surroundings, he is considered omnivore because he eats meat and vegetables, and he is considered intelligent because he has the ability to obtain knowledge and apply it to his life. These are all descriptions of the human; these descriptions only exist in the context of describing him.

yes, he is considered all those things because those things exist, they are concrete things.
So, where did they come from?
We already agreed that those properties have to exist in the universe since something can't come from nothing, so where did they come from?

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:44 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:23 am

I wouldn't call them things, they are descriptions of things that exist. Consider a human. He is described as a man because he has male sex organs, he is considered a conscious being because he is aware of his surroundings, he is considered omnivore because he eats meat and vegetables, and he is considered intelligent because he has the ability to obtain knowledge and apply it to his life. These are all descriptions of the human; these descriptions only exist in the context of describing him.

yes, he is considered all those things because those things exist, they are concrete things.
So, where did they come from?
We already agreed that those properties have to exist in the universe since something can't come from nothing, so where did they come from?

Where did they come from? Because they are a part of him, they came from the same place HE came from; he evolved that way. If cells evolved to become him, those things were a part of the eternally existing cells that became him.

Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:44 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:23 am

I wouldn't call them things, they are descriptions of things that exist. Consider a human. He is described as a man because he has male sex organs, he is considered a conscious being because he is aware of his surroundings, he is considered omnivore because he eats meat and vegetables, and he is considered intelligent because he has the ability to obtain knowledge and apply it to his life. These are all descriptions of the human; these descriptions only exist in the context of describing him.

yes, he is considered all those things because those things exist, they are concrete things.
So, where did they come from?
We already agreed that those properties have to exist in the universe since something can't come from nothing, so where did they come from?

Where did they come from? Because they are a part of him, they came from the same place HE came from; he evolved that way. If cells evolved to become him, those things were a part of the eternally existing cells that became him.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:30 am Conscience, Consciousness and Intelligence evolved?
From what?
We know the material base from which man evolved of course,

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:30 am but those things are NOT material so where did they evolve from?