Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:11 pm**

Right before the 10 commandments are listed in Exodus 20, Exodus 20:2 says:2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

That makes it clear who God is giving these commandments to. That can't be ignored. How many of you have been "brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage"?

Eureka wrote:
God commanded you to remember the Sabbath. Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath.

No he didn't. And, Jesus was Jewish.

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:02 pm**

Eureka » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:44 am

After stalking this thread for a while, despite great arguments from both sides, I feel convinced that Christians should practice the Sabbath. I UNDERSTAND THAT NO LEVEL OF OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION! However, there is a clear agreement among Christians that despite the gift of salvation through Christ, sinful behavior should be avoided.

I believe that ignoring God's command to dedicate the 7th day of the week to rest and worship qualifies as sinful behavior.

I am not swayed by the argument that the Ten Commandments were exclusively intended for Jewish people. None of the scripture that were presented showed any indication that the law was to be upheld by only the Tribe of Judah, and the scriptures that did suggest that the law was meant for a specific group suggested that the "applicable group" would be Israelites. Descendents from these tribes make up many races of people today! Can you trace your family tree back that far? Even if your ancestors were considered gentiles, conversion to Christianity involves an attempt to be Christ-like. It may not require good behavior for salvation, but it sure follows that just as Christ obeyed this commandment, today's Christians should try to do the same.

This thread reminds me a bit of the many threads that this forum has about homosexuality. Most Christians aren't accustomed to practicing the Sabbath, and acceptance of the need to re-organize their week would be pretty inconvenient. There is a vested interest in one opinion that makes it difficult to accept the Word as it is written. Likewise, I've seen several homosexuals attempt to re-interpret the scripture so that what they desire is no longer sinful. As a person with no intention of practicing the Sabbath and a person who supports social and legal acceptance of many controversial lifestyles, I think the Bible is pretty clear about what God considers "good" or "bad" behavior. What pleases God and what disgusts him.

God commanded you to remember the Sabbath. Jesus Christ observed the Sabbath. Observance of the Sabbath allows you to spend a longer-than-normal amount of time focused entirely on intimate worship of your creator. The only reason I can see people avoiding this practice is because it is inconvenient in a society that expects you to pursue progress (outside of spiritual progress) seven days of the week.

You are missing the point. The observance of Sabbath is no more better than the observance of law which also points to Christ. Sabbath points to Christ. When you are in Christ, you have now the substance for which the Sabbath was a shadow of. So the point is not to observe sabbth but to be like Christ, and to be like Christ doesn't mean to behave like a Jew. He was a carpenter, are you a carpenter? he visited synagogues, are you visiting synagogues? He went in the temple of God and whipped the market people out, are you doing that? He was feeding multitudes, what about you? He was walking on water, what about you? He commanded and the winds and waters obeyed him, you wanna take a shot at this too and let the weather people have a surprise? He rode on a donkey, why don't you do the same?

We are told to be like Christ spiritually, not worldly.

Equating acceptance of homosexuality to not observing the Sabbath, is quite bad theology. And this is exactly the attitude which drives us apart further from each other. I have written above plainly, people trying to fulfill the law because they think they will please displease God are wrong to perceive God as such. People who follow it out of their love because they think they should,are another matter, to which I still hold that the law provides nothing special, but nonetheless they are happy to do it and I see nothing wrong in it as long as they are not being legalistic. I also understand why a Jew would want to keep the law, even culturally; but making lack of observing the Sabbath, a sin, disobedience of God, is legalism and not a work in the spirit, this was the same objection the jews had on Christ, that he broke the Sabbath.

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:15 pm**

Amen Neo-X, Hallelujah

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:43 pm**

Does anyone want to address some of the points I made in my last post? Anything, if I made an interesting point, if I'm in error somewhere, I want to keep this as a discussion, to see what the Scriptures say about this, and not just giving our opinions. Even if we don't agree, I feel like discussing this could be edifying for both sides.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Which day is the Sabbath? how do we know if we are using the right day? I worship on Sundays and dedicate that day to the Lord (the Lord has never told me to do otherwise).
*Edit* pretty much everyday I dedicate to God.

Dan

As far as the whole "we don't know which day is REALLY Shabbat," that's pretty silly. The weekly calendar hasn't changed since Jesus' day, and He kept the right one. Besides, Jews have been keeping Shabbat since the exodus, so, I don't see how it would just get "lost." Not trying to sound argumentative here, I just want to point out that that's not an issue.

RickD wrote:Right before the 10 commandments are listed in Exodus 20, Exodus 20:2 says:2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

That makes it clear who God is giving these commandments to. That can't be ignored. How many of you have been "brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage"?

Well, if only those who G-d directly brought out of the land of Egypt, and out of the house of bondage were meant to keep Shabbat, then it seems that G-d's later exhortations to observe it to the later generations were unnecessary. And yet, if it's to the descendants of those whom He brought out, then according to Paul that includes us. He said at 1 Corinthians 10:1 that "OUR fathers" were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea. And according to Romans 4:11, 16, 17, Abraham is the father of all who believe and have his faith, including those who "aren't circumcised." Not that we are all Jews, but that we're spiritual descendants of Abraham. And if spiritual descendants, then wouldn't the spiritual laws that applied to his physical children apply to us as well?

neo-x wrote:You are missing the point. The observance of Sabbath is no more better than the observance of law which also points to Christ. Sabbath points to Christ. When you are in Christ, you have now the substance for which the Sabbath was a shadow of. So the point is not to observe sabbth but to be like Christ, and to be like Christ doesn't mean to behave like a Jew. He was a carpenter, are you a carpenter? he visited synagogues, are you visiting synagogues? He went in the temple of God and whipped the market people out, are you doing that? He was feeding multitudes, what about you? He was walking on water, what about you? He commanded and the winds and waters obeyed him, you wanna take a shot at this too and let the weather people have a surprise? He rode on a donkey, why don't you do the same?

I do agree that simply keeping Shabbat because Christ did isn't that good of a reason to, as, like you said, He did a lot of things, not all of which are required (or possible) for us. But, being a carpenter, visiting synagogues, feeding multitudes, and commanding the wind and water aren't commandments. Shabbat was/is. So, if Jesus upheld it, and said that the Torah it was a part of wasn't to be done away with, and that the least of its commandments are still to be followed and taught, then, it seems as if He gave pretty good reasons to follow it too.

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:47 pm**

As far as the whole "we don't know which day is REALLY Shabbat," that's pretty silly. The weekly calendar hasn't changed since Jesus' day, and He kept the right one. Besides, Jews have been keeping Shabbat since the exodus, so, I don't see how it would just get "lost." Not trying to sound argumentative here, I just want to point out that that's not an issue.

So which day is it then, I was actually asking because I don't know.

How does it work when I am in a different time zone? is it the day before or the day after, who decides when it will be?

So, if Jesus upheld it, and said that the Torah it was a part of wasn't to be done away with, and that the least of its commandments are still to be followed and taught, then, it seems as if He gave pretty good reasons to follow it too.

Jesus upheld the spirit of the Sabbath which is to spend time with the Lord in worship, not the Law governing it.

Dan

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:53 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So which day is it then, I was actually asking because I don't know.

How does it work when I am in a different time zone? is it the day before or the day after, who decides when it will be?

Dan

Oh, okay. It's a common objection brought up by many who disagree with still observing it, so I assumed you were bringing it up as an objection as well. Sorry for making an assumption, brother.

The day would be Saturday, but, technically it's observed from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, because according to the Torah days begin at the evening (Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31; Leviticus 23:32). There's no set time, really, just simply whenever it happens to be Friday in your time zone and the sun sets in your area, until it sets again the next day.

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:54 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Jesus upheld the spirit of the Sabbath which is to spend time with the Lord in worship, not the Law governing it.

Dan

Can you cite a Scripture to back this up, my friend?

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:08 pm**

cheezerrox wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Jesus upheld the spirit of the Sabbath which is to spend time with the Lord in worship, not the Law governing it.

Dan
Can you cite a Scripture to back this up, my friend?

Matthew 12
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

11 He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

Indicates that Jesus was not observing the Sabbath law, but instead was observing the spirit of the Sabbath which is to commune and spend time with God and not necessarily sitting around doing nothing while doing that.

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:22 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Indicates that Jesus was not observing the Sabbath law, but instead was observing the spirit of the Sabbath which is to commune and spend time with God and not necessarily sitting around doing nothing while doing that.

That's true, He violated the legalistic law and upheld the spirit of the law. But, Jesus' actions there did not go against the Written Torah. It went against the contemporary Judaism (and modern-day Orthodox Judaism)'s interpretation and halakhic ruling on the commandment, but did not violate anything in the actual Five Books of Moses. So, He still upheld the Torah which is G-d's Word, but went against the man-made doctrines being treated as equal to or more important than G-d's Commands (Mark 7:1-13 has to do with exactly this).

So, if Jesus held up the spirit of Shabbat, which is to commune and spend time with G-d, then why don't we do that still?

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:24 pm**

cheezerrox wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Indicates that Jesus was not observing the Sabbath law, but instead was observing the spirit of the Sabbath which is to commune and spend time with God and not necessarily sitting around doing nothing while doing that.
That's true, He violated the legalistic law and upheld the spirit of the law. But, Jesus' actions there did not go against the Written Torah. It went against the contemporary Judaism (and modern-day Orthodox Judaism)'s interpretation and halakhic ruling on the commandment, but did not violate anything in the actual Five Books of Moses. So, He still upheld the Torah which is G-d's Word, but went against the man-made doctrines being treated as equal to or more important than G-d's Commands (Mark 7:1-13 has to do with exactly this).

So, if Jesus held up the spirit of Shabbat, which is to commune and spend time with G-d, then why don't we do that still?

I do, every single day. Well most days as I have some bad days every now and then.

Posted: **Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:41 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I do, every single day. Well most days as I have some bad days every now and then.

Now, see, this is a common point I see being made in discussions concerning whether we're meant to keep Shabbat anymore or not. It's usually in reference to Romans 14:5. But, I don't think that's an accurate handling of that verse. Paul's not speaking specifically about Jewish holy days, because he's speaking to a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles, and the other things he calls principles of conscience are being vegetarian (verse 2) and not drinking wine (verse 21), and those are not found in Jewish dietary laws in any way, shape, or form. So, to assume that verse 5 is speaking specifically of Shabbat is ignoring its context. Also, to say, as many say, "I treat all days the same, instead of just the Sabbath. I worship G-d every day," is to by implication say that the Jews of Old Testament times, the early Messianic Community consisting of Jews and Gentiles of New Testament times, and modern-day believers who keep Shabbat only worship G-d one day a week and ignore Him the rest of the week. That's simply untrue. The fact that Shabbat has been commanded as a day set aside for rest and holiness has nothing to do with the rest of the week, and certainly doesn't mean serving G-d or devoting time to Him is irrelevant the rest of the week.

Now, you may not even have had this verse in mind, but as I said, I see it used often in these discussions, so I figured it couldn't hurt to bring it up anyway. But, regardless, I don't see anything in Jesus' teachings where He said that now we're supposed to keep a "spiritual" Shabbat that's daily instead of weekly. Do you have reference to this as well?

Posted: **Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:12 pm**

Now, you may not even have had this verse in mind, but as I said, I see it used often in these discussions, so I figured it couldn't hurt to bring it up anyway. But, regardless, I don't see anything in Jesus' teachings where He said that now we're supposed to keep a "spiritual" Shabbat that's daily instead of weekly. Do you have reference to this as well?

No verses, this is just my conviction.

If God wants me to keep the Sabbath as a certain day I will, but so far he has not convicted me in anyway to do that.

Dan

Posted: **Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:19 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Now, you may not even have had this verse in mind, but as I said, I see it used often in these discussions, so I figured it couldn't hurt to bring it up anyway. But, regardless, I don't see anything in Jesus' teachings where He said that now we're supposed to keep a "spiritual" Shabbat that's daily instead of weekly. Do you have reference to this as well?
No verses, this is just my conviction.

If God wants me to keep the Sabbath as a certain day I will, but so far he has not convicted me in anyway to do that.

Dan

Daniel, it almost sounds like you are open to God to speak to you about this, AND you are advocating that Christians have liberty in Christ, to follow their conscience. How dare you?!?!

Posted: **Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:45 pm**

So, to assume that verse 5 is speaking specifically of Shabbat is ignoring its context.

So if we put it into context, what days is Paul talking about? Sounds to me like he is talking about the Sabbath and other holy days.

Dan

Posted: **Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:38 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:No verses, this is just my conviction.

If God wants me to keep the Sabbath as a certain day I will, but so far he has not convicted me in anyway to do that.

Dan

Well, I do believe that if you aren't convicted to do things about which Scripture is not clear on (although I beleive it is clear in this case, many centuries of tradition and Orthodox theology have gone the opposite direction, so it now is less clear), then doing it would actually be sin, in light of Romans 14:23. I simply believe that there is no Biblical reason to no longer observe the weekly Shabbat. But, the majority of my brothers in Christ disagree, and are just as Spirit-indwelled and accepted by G-d, and it's not a salvation issue at all.

RickD wrote:Daniel, it almost sounds like you are open to God to speak to you about this, AND you are advocating that Christians have liberty in Christ, to follow their conscience. How dare you?!?!

Lol, well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on what liberty in Christ means.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:So if we put it into context, what days is Paul talking about? Sounds to me like he is talking about the Sabbath and other holy days.

Dan

We simply don't know, since he wasn't specific. It could be any days that any of the believers came to see as especially holy. We have to remember that the Gentile believers in that culture were inundated with pagan culture, and that this included its own practices and rituals. Paul's not talking about Shabbat here, because every single other principle of conscience he mentions has absolutely nothing to do with the Law. If he was, then it would come out of nowhere, and since he didn't specify he was talking about Shabbat or any other Jewish holy days, it would be too great of an assumption to say that he was.

Evidence for God from Science

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