The Law

[RickD]

KBCid wrote:
What about blood and things strangled? If you are correct along with Neo that 'nothing' outside of a man will defile him then these texts are in error;

Act 15:14-20 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

KBC, if we are to interpret those passages as you do, how would you then explain the contradiction with 1 Corinthians 8?

8 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge [a]makes arrogant, but love edifies. 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not [c]commend us to God; we are neither [d]the worse if we do not eat, nor [e]the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this [f]liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.

KBCid wrote:
Did you know that this "(Thus He declared all foods clean.)" is not part of the original text? It should also be noted here that you are posting specifically those things which do defile a man and what are they;

21“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23“All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

These are direct references to the decalogue that you have also asserted throughout the thread that we are no longer under... and yet here they are for all to see in the new testament defining that these things are still sins under the new covenant and do still defile a man.

KBC, I guess there is some controversy about verse 19. It depends on the translation.
With verses 21-23, this shows that the heart of man is desperately wicked. All those evil things proceed from the heart of man. I never said the list in those verses are no longer sins. I said we as believers don't live by the law, we live by the spirit. God has written His law on our hearts. Old Covenant=law written on stone. New Covenant=Law written in our hearts. Do you see the difference?

It would not matter how you define the word shared. The fact is that This is a Jewish POV and food does not include swine and a number of other things for them. When a Jew talks about food it is everything approved of by God. The questionable part for them was 'food' sacrificed to idols. This is where the question of clean vs. unclean is defined which is why the statement;

that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Makes sense. From the Jewish perspective the food that they would accept as food could be unclean because of the pollution of idols and how it was killed. At no time can anyone entertain the concept that they considered swine food. To this day it is still not considered food by them so what is occuring here is the same thing Neo is doing. Reading the scriptures from the POV of a gentile when in fact it is entirely from a Jewish perspective.

I understand what you're saying, but what does that have to do with gentile believers who are not under the written law?

that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Can't you see that this was said so that the gentile believers wouldn't use their liberty in Christ to offend their Jewish brothers? This was all about the customs of the Jews and the gentile heathens at the time.

Interesting.

1,050 New Testament Commands
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions we can classify them under 69 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter. If obeyed, they will bring rich rewards here and forever; if disobeyed, they will bring condemnation and eternal punishment.
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-n ... t-commands

And you don't recognise even one of them as binding on a believer.

KBC, I agree with you that what good we as believers do, God will reward us for it later, as long as we don't do good to be seen by others.
But to say that if a believer disobeys one of those commands, he will be eternally punished? Who then will be saved? We are all guilty. None of us in this life is without sin. A believer who lives by the spirit WILL love his neighbor. God will transform him. By you telling believers they have to obey 1,050 commands, you are putting a burden back on them that Christ has taken away.

Your perception of my past text from another thread is a bit odd at this point. This is what is considered a redirect from the point at hand but none the less I will answer to it. God existed within Christ. Christ was the first holy vessel that God the father deemed worthy to dwell within and Christ specifically stated that we will be like him... holy vesssels for the father to dwell within. The holy spirit is God the fathers presence within a believer who loves him. So indeed God was present within Christ and the two are one in spirit.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is God, or not?

Correctly understood if we are Christs bretheren and sisters etc. and The father will dwell within us... and we are his people then Christ also was a holy vessel that the father dwelled and walked within and this perspective makes sense of the following verses;

KBC, you are making the same error that 1stjohnny made. When Jesus said, " but the Father that dwelleth in me" he was saying that there was more to him than the human nature. He was saying that the Father and he are one in nature.

The more correct assertion here Rick is that I am not a believer in the same perspective about Christ that you are. This doesn't mean that I don't see Christ as the only path to the Father or that he is not the first of many who will also be the temple of the living God. As I pointed out many times there are a vast plethora of Christian sects. Each of which have very specific beliefs about God and Christ all of them cannot be correct. Is your POV the only absolutely correct one? and how do you know?

KBC, if a "sect" doesn't believe in the deity of Christ, then it's not Christian. It's either a Christian Cult, or a different religion. One of the essentials that all Christian denominations have in common is the belief that Jesus Christ is God. If you see Jesus Christ as the only path to the father, but it's a different Christ than the Christ who is God incarnate, then you might as well believe Buddha is the only path to the father. Your Christ is a false Christ, and cannot save. We have been over this ad nauseum with 1stjohnny.

As I stated to you very many times I am testing my understanding and so far I have not found a defensible assertion from the text given in the threads I have spent time in. This doesn't make me right nor does it make you wrong, we simply don't agree on some specifics about the one and only way to exist eternal with God.
Note that I have not asserted that you don't believe in Jesus Christ simply because of a difference of interpretation about him. My assumption would be that regardless of perception we both desire the same thing... To continue to exist with our maker.

If you truly desire eternal life, believe on Jesus Christ. The real Jesus Christ. He alone can save you from your sins. I truly hope that you will be open to the true nature of our savior.

I read over my post, and I'm sorry if my answers don't completely make sense. I'm tired and I couldn't get my thoughts out properly. Or, I have some form of dementia. Take your pick.

[KBCid]

What about blood and things strangled? If you are correct along with Neo that 'nothing' outside of a man will defile him then these texts are in error...

KBC, if we are to interpret those passages as you do, how would you then explain the contradiction with 1 Corinthians 8?
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.[/i].

Rick I do completely understand the absolute reality of approved 'foods' and idols. We can all be confident that any approved 'food' from a Jewish POV is clean regardless of how it was prepared because there really are no idols or other gods. When it comes to the approved foods we can be confident in our own minds that we have nothing to worry about between us and God but should in all respects care about other bretheren and how they view such things and adapt our actions accordingly so as not to offend them or give them the wrong idea about such things.
The part that is being missed here is that you are presuming that 'food' as written in the biblical sense means anything you can put in your mouth when in fact the text was written from a Jewish perspective and food from their perspective did not include anything past the types approved for eating. The points I was referencing dealt entirely with the preparations of the approved foods and what was allowed. In every referencable case the question was not about what was allowed as an approved food but rather it was entirely what is an allowed preparation method for food already approved.

Did you know that this "(Thus He declared all foods clean.)" is not part of the original text? It should also be noted here that you are posting specifically those things which do defile a man and what are they;
21“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23“All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

These are direct references to the decalogue that you have also asserted throughout the thread that we are no longer under... and yet here they are for all to see in the new testament defining that these things are still sins under the new covenant and do still defile a man. [/quote]

KBC, I guess there is some controversy about verse 19. It depends on the translation.

So your inferring here that the text could be part of the original text depending on translation. I am stating plainly that there is no original text that could be translated to say the text shown. Do you understand and deny this?

With verses 21-23, this shows that the heart of man is desperately wicked. All those evil things proceed from the heart of man. I never said the list in those verses are no longer sins.

Ok so you do agree that doing any of those things is a sin. And a sin is the breaking of a divine commandment right;

sin
An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

Ok so here is the way this plays out Rick. If each of those things are still sins as you just stated then it requires that there be a divine law against them. If however, you wish to push the concept that we are not under any law as you have implied in other places then none of those things can be a sin since it requires that there be a divine law against them in order to be considered a sin. You cannot have it both ways.

I said we as believers don't live by the law, we live by the spirit. God has written His law on our hearts. Old Covenant=law written on stone. New Covenant=Law written in our hearts. Do you see the difference?

Indeed I do see a difference.
Old covenant law written on stone = applied soley to the outward actions of man
new covenant law written on our hearts = old laws intent with expanded definitions now applies to the inward man or the whole man.
The question is do you see that there are still laws that apply to us? Of what use is the writing of laws in our hearts if we are not under the law? A man can say all day long I am led by the spirit but if we observe him stealing then he is commiting a sin and the sin that occured was the breaking of the divine commandment to love thy neighbor which was responsible for the original command to not steal given to the Jews. However, the new covenant being based now on the royal laws which 'demands' that all Gods 'people' are to Love God and to also love their neighbor still finds that stealing is a sin because it breaks the intent of the love thy neighbor principle which was also the intent of the original command to not steal.
There is a distinction between the moral laws and the laws that dealt with sin. Christ fulfilled / ended all the laws that dealt with sin and freed us from their constraints but he never fulfilled the moral laws because they are not something you can fulfill / end.
The moral laws as given to Israel which are hung on the two royal laws will 'always' remain in effect and in fact in the new covenant they have been expanded to include your very thoughts. These laws are supposed to be written on our hearts but for some people this has not occured and they perform actions that are sins against the royal commands. So no matter whether we are saved or not we are commanded by Christ in our covenant with God to obey the two commands;

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

"ALL THE LAWS" hang on these two commands... the ones given to the Jews is what was read from in the above scripture and the expanded versions given to us which are to be written on our hearts. It would be interesting to hear you say that the scriptures above don't apply to us because they were given to the Jews only.
There are a multitude of other commands that we have been given and one that seems appropriate here is;

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This is a commandment from our maker to us. We are to strive to be perfect in both thought and deed just as God is.

It would not matter how you define the word shared. The fact is that This is a Jewish POV and food does not include swine and a number of other things for them. When a Jew talks about food it is everything approved of by God. The questionable part for them was 'food' preparation. This is where the question of clean vs. unclean is defined which is why the statement; that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood makes sense. From the Jewish perspective the food that they would accept as food could be unclean because of the pollution of idols and how it was killed. At no time can anyone entertain the concept that they considered swine food. To this day it is still not considered food by them so what is occuring here is the same thing Neo is doing. Reading the scriptures from the POV of a gentile when in fact it is entirely from a Jewish perspective.

I understand what you're saying, but what does that have to do with gentile believers who are not under the written law?

If you really understood what I was saying then you would not ask such a question.

Rom 2:9-15 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts...

Apparently God has written laws in some peoples hearts that appear to match those laws written for the Jews. Can you define what laws are to be written in the hearts of believers? The Jews had Gods laws written on that which was outside their bodies... new covenant believers are to have the laws of God written on the inside in their hearts. Since God doesn't change then why should we suppose that his laws would change regardless of the substrate used to write them on?
Gods laws are Gods laws they all are derived from two main concepts Love God and Love your neighbor. No matter who God delivers his laws to and no matter where he writes them they remain Gods laws for his people.

that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Can't you see that this was said so that the gentile believers wouldn't use their liberty in Christ to offend their Jewish brothers? This was all about the customs of the Jews and the gentile heathens at the time.

I surely do understand since preparing approved foods in the ways noted in that scripture made the approved food dirty to a Jew. So do you understand the argument yet?

Interesting.
1,050 New Testament Commands
There are 1,050 commands in the New Testament for Christians to obey. Due to repetitions we can classify them under 69 headings. They cover every phase of man's life in his relationship to God and his fellowmen, now and hereafter. If obeyed, they will bring rich rewards here and forever; if disobeyed, they will bring condemnation and eternal punishment.
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-n ... t-commands
And you don't recognise even one of them as binding on a believer.

KBC, I agree with you that what good we as believers do, God will reward us for it later, as long as we don't do good to be seen by others.

My message is not that we will be rewarded for doing what is right and holy. It is our obligation to be like God. Why should anyone expect to be rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do? We should not expect a reward for doing what is right, but even so Christ says that there will be rewards;

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

But to say that if a believer disobeys one of those commands, he will be eternally punished? Who then will be saved? We are all guilty. None of us in this life is without sin. A believer who lives by the spirit WILL love his neighbor. God will transform him.

So you feel that my message is that if you sin at all then your eternally damned? Let there be clarification then... He who dies in his sins will not live eternally with the Father and Christ. Eternal punishment is a concept of man propogated by early catholics to incite the payment of moneys for forgiveness of sins. My Father will not cause the perpetual existence of those who hate him just to punish them. My Father is Love.

By you telling believers they have to obey 1,050 commands, you are putting a burden back on them that Christ has taken away.

Where does it say in the biblical text that "KBCid says"? Lets have a look at some of those 1,050 commands and reveal the true author;

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not...
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters...
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication...
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This was just a small sampling of the commands we were given collectively from out maker. You will not find any place in the text where it was written "KBCid says". At some point in the refered scriptures you will find that the author of the commands is God himself. So if you don't feel they are correct then it would be with him that there is an issue.

Your perception of my past text from another thread is a bit odd at this point. This is what is considered a redirect from the point at hand but none the less I will answer to it. God existed within Christ. Christ was the first holy vessel that God the father deemed worthy to dwell within and Christ specifically stated that we will be like him... holy vesssels for the father to dwell within. The holy spirit is God the fathers presence within a believer who loves him. So indeed God was present within Christ and the two are one in spirit.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is God, or not?

When God dwells within you (as a temple) does this make you (the temple) God? Joh 14:10 ...but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to continue to exist with 'our' father.

Correctly understood if we are Christs bretheren and sisters etc. and The father will dwell within us... and we are his people then Christ also was a holy vessel that the father dwelled and walked within and this perspective makes sense of the following verses;

KBC, you are making the same error that 1stjohnny made. When Jesus said, " but the Father that dwelleth in me" he was saying that there was more to him than the human nature. He was saying that the Father and he are one in nature.

So man is nothing more than just human nature? there is no actual being residing inside the temple?
I believe Christ has asserted that he and the Father are one in spirit, you on the other hand infer that they are one and the same being and you are free to interpret the text as it pleases you. However, you have not brought an argument based on scripture that backs that concept.

The more correct assertion here Rick is that I am not a believer in the same perspective about Christ that you are. This doesn't mean that I don't see Christ as the only path to the Father or that he is not the first of many who will also be the temple of the living God. As I pointed out many times there are a vast plethora of Christian sects. Each of which have very specific beliefs about God and Christ all of them cannot be correct. Is your POV the only absolutely correct one? and how do you know?

KBC, if a "sect" doesn't believe in the deity of Christ, then it's not Christian. It's either a Christian Cult, or a different religion. One of the essentials that all Christian denominations have in common is the belief that Jesus Christ is God. If you see Jesus Christ as the only path to the father, but it's a different Christ than the Christ who is God incarnate, then you might as well believe Buddha is the only path to the father. Your Christ is a false Christ, and cannot save. We have been over this ad nauseum with 1stjohnny.

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

I Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image....
II Cor 4:4 ...the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself...

Eph 2:20 ...Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The text says Christ is part of the temple which the Father will dwell in. Those who will be saved will be part of this temple and I am quite sure that the temple is not actually God himself.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

If you insist that Christ is God incarnate then according to the verse above you would be obligated to believe that we will become God incarnate when he arrives.

Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Joh 14:28 ...for my Father is greater than I.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

[Byblos]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

We can always refer you back to the Gospel of John but we've done that numerous times with 1stjohn and it got nowhere since he had his own interpretation that differs from ours as I'm sure you do as well. And round and round we go.

I will ask you the same question I asked others a zillion times and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer for, if Jesus is not God incarnate, why was Jesus so effective when other (lesser, I presume) christs before him failed so miserably?

[Sam1995]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

Have a read at this. It's quite good

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

SB

[RickD]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

We can always refer you back to the Gospel of John but we've done that numerous times with 1stjohn and it got nowhere since he had his own interpretation that differs from ours as I'm sure you do as well. And round and round we go.

I will ask you the same question I asked others a zillion times and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer for, if Jesus is not God incarnate, why was Jesus so effective when other (lesser, I presume) christs before him failed so miserably?

Great point, Byblos!
And to add to Byblos' question, If following the law makes us holy like you believe KBCid, then why did Christ have to die for our sins? If the law does what you claim, then Christ's death wasn't necessary.

KBCid, Here's the difference between the Old Testament covenant(under law), and the New Covenant under Christ(grace):
under grace or under law

KBC, it's absolutely crucial that you understand the true nature of Christ. First, it's a matter of your salvation. Second, if one doesn't believe Christ is God, then all else you believe is a direct reflection of that wrong belief.

[RickD]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

Have a read at this. It's quite good

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

SB

Sam, that link does a good job of showing from scripture that Jesus is God. I just want to point out that the site you got the link from is a "little" aberrant. It's a King James Only site. They believe all other English translations of the bible are corrupt. So, the scripture that the site posts about Christ's deity are correct, but some of the beliefs the site holds to are aberrant. Just a word of caution, that's all. As with any other site, use discernment.

[Sam1995]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

Have a read at this. It's quite good

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

SB

Sam, that link does a good job of showing from scripture that Jesus is God. I just want to point out that the site you got the link from is a "little" aberrant. It's a King James Only site. They believe all other English translations of the bible are corrupt. So, the scripture that the site posts about Christ's deity are correct, but some of the beliefs the site holds to are aberrant. Just a word of caution, that's all. As with any other site, use discernment.

Didn't see that, apologies! I trust the link is still valid as evidence for Jesus being God incarnate however!

SB

[RickD]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

Have a read at this. It's quite good

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

SB

Sam, that link does a good job of showing from scripture that Jesus is God. I just want to point out that the site you got the link from is a "little" aberrant. It's a King James Only site. They believe all other English translations of the bible are corrupt. So, the scripture that the site posts about Christ's deity are correct, but some of the beliefs the site holds to are aberrant. Just a word of caution, that's all. As with any other site, use discernment.

Didn't see that, apologies! I trust the link is still valid as evidence for Jesus being God incarnate however!

SB

Yes Sam. The scripture that the link posted absolutely is evidence to the deity of Jesus Christ! The power is in the scripture, not in the person or website who posts the scripture.

[PaulSacramento]

RE: Christ as God incarnate:
Jesus is the Word of God and the word was God ( John 1:1) and the word became incarnate ( became flesh) and only the Word incarnate can reveal God ( John 1:14-18).
So, if Christ is the Word of God in the flesh, then God became incarnate because the Word of God is God ( same nature).
Don't do what 1John666 did and confuse the term God, which defines His Nature, with it being The Fathers name.

[neo-x]

KBCid, you have serious theological misunderstandings, and wrong ideas. I suggest you study. Not to mention you show poor exegesis, as most have pointed out to you.

[KBCid]

Where is it written that Christ is God incarnate.

We can always refer you back to the Gospel of John but we've done that numerous times with 1stjohn and it got nowhere since he had his own interpretation that differs from ours as I'm sure you do as well. And round and round we go.
I will ask you the same question I asked others a zillion times and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer for, if Jesus is not God incarnate, why was Jesus so effective when other (lesser, I presume) christs before him failed so miserably?

Quite a simple answer really Byblos.

The Christ who would one day be the fleshly vessel which the Father would work through to save man was determined from the foundation of the world. Christ was the only approved holy vessel that the Father would dwell within and act through to fullfil his intent.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Christ specifically informs us;

Joh 14:10 ...but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

No man could of his own power perform the actions required by God to fullfil his intent. We can only do Gods will when we let him work through us.

Our fleshly bodies are mere physical vessels that we reside in. We as intelligent beings were created for a purpose and housed within these fleshy temples made without hands. Each of us as a definable unique being is a caretaker of the flesh temples that God would one day put his presence within.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

It may be wise that you contemplate who the 'us' is in this scripture;
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

God was not alone when the world was founded.

Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Christ is the first born of the Father. He is a unique being with his own will. God the Father is a father to a great multitude of beings who each have their own unique identity and wills but only one being is his first born and has been granted power and position from the Father.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Christ speaking in revelation which was long after his resurection still defines his place as a son in heaven and recognizes his father and his fathers angels.

Christ has a message for all of us;

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Christ has never represented himself as anything other than the son of the living God and he shows reverence for his father in all things from before he was crucified and long after he went back to be by his side. Christ is not God the Father but he is Gods Son. Each of us can also be a son of God (just not his first born) and share in existence with God and Christ in the new jerusalem when that time comes;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[KBCid]

If following the law makes us holy like you believe KBCid, then why did Christ have to die for our sins? If the law does what you claim, then Christ's death wasn't necessary.

Following the law doesen't make you holy RickD. Living the law to the best of our understanding and allowing Gods spirit to work through us will transform us into the holy vessels that he desires us to be. KBCid doesn't believe or teach that man can become holy without God.
What KBCid does assert is that we are to do our best to reflect God from the inside out and always understand that we are not God and must rely on the Father to fashion us into his people.

KBC, it's absolutely crucial that you understand the true nature of Christ. First, it's a matter of your salvation. Second, if one doesn't believe Christ is God, then all else you believe is a direct reflection of that wrong belief.

I agree understanding is crucial. Testing my understanding is exactly why I participate here.
Tell me Rick where is it written that one must believe that Christ is God the father in order to be saved?

[RickD]

KBC wrote:
It may be wise that you contemplate who the 'us' is in this scripture;
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

God was not alone when the world was founded.

KBC, the "us" is the triune God. Who else has the power to "make man in our image"?

Christ has never represented himself as anything other than the son of the living God and he shows reverence for his father in all things from before he was crucified and long after he went back to be by his side.

That's not true KBC. Christ was crucified because he said he was equal to God.

Following the law doesen't make you holy RickD. Living the law to the best of our understanding and allowing Gods spirit to work through us will transform us into the holy vessels that he desires us to be. KBCid doesn't believe or teach that man can become holy without God.
What KBCid does assert is that we are to do our best to reflect God from the inside out and always understand that we are not God and must rely on the Father to fashion us into his people.

So, by saying "Living the law to the best of our understanding..." Does that mean KBCid thinks the way a believer lives according to the law, has a part in sanctification?

I agree understanding is crucial. Testing my understanding is exactly why I participate here.
Tell me Rick where is it written that one must believe that Christ is God the father in order to be saved?

Who let 1stjohn0666 back into the forum? Seriously KBC, we've gone over this before. Jesus Christ is not the Father. You are doing the same thing 1stjohnny did. Jesus Christ is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. One God in three persons. The Trinity. While the Father is God, that doesn't mean God is the Father. Jesus is God. That doesn't mean Jesus is the Father. The Holy Spirit is God. That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is Jesus.

[KBCid]

It may be wise that you contemplate who the 'us' is in this scripture; Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

KBC, the "us" is the triune God. Who else has the power to "make man in our image"?

I am not familiar with any scriptures that assert that God is triune. God alone has the power to make what he wishes either directly or through his creations. It is written there is one God (not a triune god) and one lord Jesus Christ. If as you think they are one and the same then this verse would be incorrect;
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

It is very specific that there is one God that is defined as 'the Father' and there is one mediator between God and men and that is a 'man' we call Jesus Christ in whom God the father dwelled as it is written;

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

If Christ is God the father then this verse makes no sense;
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Christ has never represented himself as anything other than the son of the living God and he shows reverence for his father in all things from before he was crucified and long after he went back to be by his side.

That's not true KBC. Christ was crucified because he said he was equal to God.

Did he? Let's look at the evidence from scripture;

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Christ was crucified because he called himself the Son of God not because he said he was God as the scripture states clearly and plainly;
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

If you believe a son is equal to a father then all of Christs sisters and bretheren who will also become Sons of God would also be equal with God. At no time will KBCid assert that anyone is equal with God the father. God the father is above all including his first born son Jesus; 1Co 11:3 and the head of Christ is God.

Following the law doesen't make you holy RickD. Living the law to the best of our understanding and allowing Gods spirit to work through us will transform us into the holy vessels that he desires us to be. KBCid doesn't believe or teach that man can become holy without God.
What KBCid does assert is that we are to do our best to reflect God from the inside out and always understand that we are not God and must rely on the Father to fashion us into his people.

So, by saying "Living the law to the best of our understanding..." Does that mean KBCid thinks the way a believer lives according to the law, has a part in sanctification?

KBC believes;
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith and works go hand in hand. If you say you believe and have faith yet you still steal knowing it is a sin then you would be a liar.

I agree understanding is crucial. Testing my understanding is exactly why I participate here.
Tell me Rick where is it written that one must believe that Christ is God the father in order to be saved?

Who let 1stjohn0666 back into the forum? Seriously KBC, we've gone over this before. Jesus Christ is not the Father. You are doing the same thing 1stjohnny did. Jesus Christ is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. One God in three persons. The Trinity. While the Father is God, that doesn't mean God is the Father. Jesus is God. That doesn't mean Jesus is the Father. The Holy Spirit is God. That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is Jesus.

There is only one big 'G' God and there is no scripture that defines that the one big 'G' God is divided into three persons. However, there are little 'g' gods which is what Christ and we are because we were created in the image of big 'G' God. Christ claimed that he was a little 'g' god as it is written here;
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
but if you think that there is scripture that states otherwise then by all means reference it.
The simple fact from what has been given to my understanding is that Christ is not equal to God the father, he is the first born son of God the father and is subject to him In the same manner as I am a son to my father. The first born son of any father can only excercise the power that is given to them by their father and Christ plainly stated that;

Mat 28:18 All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

So just as my father and I are not the same being neither is God the father and Christ the same being. Each of them has their own distinct will as it is written;
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

So Rick do you feel it was ok to derail this thread about the law into a question for KBC about the deity of Christ? Wouldn't it be better to deal with such a question in a thread about that subject? I have no problem participating in such a thread but I am more interested in the subject of this one which deals with the law.

[RickD]

The Law
The Law is God's instructions concerning the moral, social, and spiritual behavior of his people found in the first five books of the Bible. The Law is the very reflection of the nature of God because God speaks out of the abundance of what is in him. Therefore, since God is pure, the Law is pure. Since God is holy, the Law is holy. The Law consists of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20), rules for social life (Exodus 21 - 23), and rules for the worship of God (Exodus 25 - 31). It was a covenant of works between God and man, and was (and is) unable to deliver us into eternal fellowship with the Lord because of man's inability to keep it. The Law is a difficult taskmaster because it requires that we maintain a perfect standard of moral behavior. And then when we fail, the Law condemns us to death. We deserve death even if we fail to keep just one point of the law: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all," (James 2:10).

The law made nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19). That is why the Law has shown us our need for Jesus and the free gift we receive through Him (Gal. 3:24).

From carm.org