Jehovah witnesses

[Philip]

You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time.

[B. W.]

You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time.

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[Philip]

Philip wrote:
You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time.

So why don't I feel any better after my hug? Thanks, "mom!"

It's so tempting, well knowing JW's historical training to doubt and not accept any documentation you might provide (be it historical facts or their own organization's history of false prophecies) to just dismiss them and tell them to leave. But, somewhere, there's a reasonable point to bid them adieu - along with Jack Nicholson's famous quote ringing in their ears: "You can't HANDLE the truth!"

[LittleHamster]

[neo-x]

You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time.

You are quite right there and I don't blame you for losing your patience. They are behind a wall of blindness which they don't seem know to cross.

[goingsouth]

I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?

Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?

Not yet, if the bible ever mentions "God the son" I might!!

John, until you believe in the one true Jesus, you are lost in your sins.
Jesus is God

Since when does NOT believing in a trinity make one lost in your sins? In my view, when someone condemns someone else for NOT believing in the trinity, they are being judgmental. Jesus life, death, resurrection, and ascension, have nothing to do with a trinity. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity. Whether one believes Jesus is God or NOT doesn't determine whether or not they are in their sins. Myself, I believe Jesus is God but NOT fully God, God is yet greater!

[Philip]

Is the Father God? How about the Son? Is the Holy Spirit God?

[RickD]

I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?

Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?

Not yet, if the bible ever mentions "God the son" I might!!

John, until you believe in the one true Jesus, you are lost in your sins.
Jesus is God

Since when does NOT believing in a trinity make one lost in your sins? In my view, when someone condemns someone else for NOT believing in the trinity, they are being judgmental. Jesus life, death, resurrection, and ascension, have nothing to do with a trinity. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity. Whether one believes Jesus is God or NOT doesn't determine whether or not they are in their sins. Myself, I believe Jesus is God but NOT fully God, God is yet greater!

How can Jesus be God, yet not fully God?

[goingsouth]

As opposed to the trinity doctrine, it's not difficult to understand.

Jesus said it best...

His own words PROVE he's not FULLY God!

Jesus said he or the angels didn't know the time of his own return, but that ONLY God knows. If Jesus were fully God, he would know!

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus said God the Father is greater.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

Our heavenly Father has NO EQUALS!

[RickD]

As opposed to the trinity doctrine, it's not difficult to understand.

Jesus said it best...

His own words PROVE he's not FULLY God!

Jesus said he or the angels didn't know the time of his own return, but that ONLY God knows. If Jesus were fully God, he would know!

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus said God the Father is greater.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

Our heavenly Father has NO EQUALS!

You still haven't answered how Jesus can, at the same time, be God, and not be fully God.

If Jesus is not "fully" God, is he only partly God? He has a divine nature, but only 50%? 60%?

If Jesus is divine, he must be God.

Do you really understand what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says?

Without fail, every single person that has argued against the Trinity on this board, has argued against a straw man.

Maybe you could briefly tell us in your own words, what the doctrine says, and what specifically about the doctrine is wrong. Then we can flesh out where you misunderstand it.

[goingsouth]

You still haven't answered how Jesus can, at the same time, be God, and not be fully God.

I didn't? Jesus did!

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

If Jesus is not "fully" God, is he only partly God? He has a divine nature, but only 50%? 60%?

What does that matter? Let me put it this way. Jesus is everything God is, BUT God is yet more! (greater)

If Jesus is divine, he must be God.

A Christian partakes in God's divine nature, yet they're not FULLY God! The angels too, yet they're not fully God. YET! We are both called GODS! The Hebrew words translated ‘God’ is ‘Elohim’, which means ‘mighty ones’. (ONES indicates all of the heavenly host) The word at times refers to the Angels who are called God’s ‘mighty ones’,

Do you really understand what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says?

Yes. I studied it and threw it out the window in 1974. I probably understand the doctrine as well as you. It's just...you believe it and I don't!

Without fail, every single person that has argued against the Trinity on this board, has argued against a straw man.

The trinity doctrine is definitely a straw man argument! Most trinitarians will tell you that the trinity doctrine is NOT explicitly taught in any ONE verse of scripture. It's derived from compilation of scriptures. I say that IF the doctrine was necessary for the forgiveness of sins and salvation, it would be clearly stated in scripture....BUT IT'S NOT!

Maybe you could briefly tell us in your own words, what the doctrine says, and what specifically about the doctrine is wrong. Then we can flesh out where you misunderstand it.

Give me a break! I don't have to prove to you that I know what the trinity doctrine states. The entire doctrine is false!

[RickD]

Ok,

From your answers, it seems you're saying that The Father is fully God, and Jesus isn't fully God.
So to help me better understand what you're saying, let's say the father, being fully God, is 100% God, by nature.

Please explain in a percentage, how much of God's divine nature Jesus has. I'm trying to understand how you back your reasoning that Jesus is God but not fully God.

[goingsouth]

Ok,

From your answers, it seems you're saying that The Father is fully God, and Jesus isn't fully God.
So to help me better understand what you're saying, let's say the father, being fully God, is 100% God, by nature.

Please explain in a percentage, how much of God's divine nature Jesus has. I'm trying to understand how you back your reasoning that Jesus is God but not fully God.

That's an unreasonable request. What do percentages have to do with anything? How do percentages help you understand or "back my reasoning" that God is greater than Jesus? I'm not the one who said God is greater than Jesus. Jesus did! How much of the divine nature do you possess? 10%....20 maybe 30%???

[RickD]

Ok,

From your answers, it seems you're saying that The Father is fully God, and Jesus isn't fully God.
So to help me better understand what you're saying, let's say the father, being fully God, is 100% God, by nature.

Please explain in a percentage, how much of God's divine nature Jesus has. I'm trying to understand how you back your reasoning that Jesus is God but not fully God.

That's an unreasonable request. What do percentages have to do with anything? How do percentages help you understand that God is greater than Jesus? I'm not the one who said God is greater than Jesus. Jesus did! How much of the divine nature do you possess?

I'm trying to understand how Jesus can be God, but not fully God. Either Jesus has all the attributes of God, and is fully God, or he doesn't have all the attributes of God, and he is not God at all.

Jesus did not say that God(the Father) is greater than he is, ontologically. That's just not logical. If Christ doesn't have all the attributes of God, he cannot, logically, be God.

[goingsouth]

Rick,

Jesus has all the attributes of God. Everything that God is Jesus is. God's has more of these attributes which is simply saying... God is a greater being!

This is what Thayer says about the word 'greater' in John 14...
...used of those who surpass others---either in nature and power as God.