Evidence for God from Science

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
BUT the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Both the heavens and the earth of old, and those which are now, constitute the FIRST heaven and FIRST earth,(Revelation 21:1 ) but are referred to as the generations(plural) which God both created and made. Each word has a specific meaning, for when God creates a thing, it's from out of nothing but the power of his word, but when he makes or forms a thing, it's from out of matter he created in the beginning.

Interestingly, whilst Genesis 1:1 declares that God (elohiym) created the original generation of the heaven and earth, he uses his covenant name Jehovah (Yaweh) elohiym, when referring to the restorative six days when he made them. Why should this be? The restoration or re-creation of the heavens and the earth, is known as ''the foundation of the world,'' and God has made a covenant Promise with man made in his own image and likeness. In this world alone would the Word become flesh, and die for the sins of mankind, for he is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8.)
Genesis 1:1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:4.These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Exodus 20:11.For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It has been said there are no hebrew/greek bible scholars that accept the Gap Theory so I am going to give a list of Hebrew/Greek bible schlars that either held to the Gap Theory or did not necessarily accept it yet acknowledged it does'nt violate biblical exigesis. Some later became to accept it,
. Martin Anstey
2. Warren Baker
3. Albert Barnes
4. David Brown
5. Eugene Carpenter
6. Lewis Sperry Chafer
7. Thomas Chalmers
8. Charles Andrew Coates
9. Arthur Custance
10. Finis Jennings Dake
11. John Nelson Darby
12. August Dillman
13. Alfred Edersheim
14. Simon Episcopius
15. Andrew Fausset
16. Arno Clement Gaebelein
17. Louis Ginsberg
18. Frederick William Grant
19. Frank Binford Hole
20. Herb Jahn
21. Robert Jamieson
22. William Kelly
23. Clarence Larkin
24. George Pember
25. A. W. Pink
26. J. G. Rosenmullen
27. Joseph Bryant Rotherham
28. Eric Sauer
29. C. I. Scofield
30. J. Pye Smith
31. Robert B. Thieme

And here are some more that held to the Gap Theory that Arther Custance referenced in his book.
Justin Martyr
St. Gregory Nazianzen
Origen
Theodoret
Augustine
Simeon ben Jochai
Caedmon
Alcuin of York
Hugo St. Victor
Thomas Aquinas
Benedict Pererius
Dionysius Petavius
Edgar, King of England
John Harris
J. H. Kurtz
Johann August Dathe
Franz Delitzsch
Fr. H. Reusch
George Gleig
Thorleif Boman
E. B. Pusey
August Dillman

And here are even more that I've learned about.
John Bird Sumner
William Daniel Conybeare
William Phillips
William Mullinger Higgins
Sharon Turner
Edward Hitchcock
Charles Haddon Spurgeon
William White, Jr.
Merrill F. Unger

All of these Hebrew/Greek bible scholars held to the Gap Theory. So think of all of these names the next time you hear somebody say there are no Hebrew/Greek bible scholars who accept it,while that might be true today,it has not always been the case.There are probablymore too that I have'nt came accross yet. These men are responsible for most of the foot notes you'll find in your bibles too no matter what translation too. like for instance in the NIV it says Genesis 1:2 can be translated to became instead of was.

Question for you ACB, if GT is true that means death reigned on men even before the creation of Adam? The NT clearly and specifically indicates that the death of humankind entered this world as a result of Adam’s sin (1 Corinthians 15:21; Romans 8:20-22; Romans 5:12). Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was “the first man.” Yet long before Adam—if the Gap Theory is correct—there existed a pre-Adamic race of men with their own sins and rebellion and whatnot...so how do you reconcile this?

Gap Theory is also known by the term "Restitution Theory."

Here, well-known Bible scholar Bruce Watke reveals it's key problems, including the grammar issues, in a detailed assessment: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

Neo: " Yet long before Adam—if the Gap Theory is correct—there existed a pre-Adamic race of men with their own sins and rebellion and whatnot...so how do you reconcile this?"

Of course, there is yet another possibility, that there WERE pre-Adamic men, but that Adam and Eve were the first, not of ALL mankind, but of God's chosen Adam to Christ lineage. So, the two main Creation accounts MIGHT be speaking of, first the Macro: God creates the universe and world, and eventually, creates the first men. And THEN, the movie eventually shifts to the next scene, which comes later, with the Micro: Adam and Eve are created and put into the Garden. This scenario STILL doesn't mean there was a former world that was destroyed, and it doesn't discount that there was ONE flood that killed ALL mankind, and at least to the extent of the geography that they had inhabited up to that time (excepting those on the Ark).

neo-x wrote:Question for you ACB, if GT is true that means death reigned on men even before the creation of Adam? The NT clearly and specifically indicates that the death of humankind entered this world as a result of Adam’s sin (1 Corinthians 15:21; Romans 8:20-22; Romans 5:12). Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was “the first man.” Yet long before Adam—if the Gap Theory is correct—there existed a pre-Adamic race of men with their own sins and rebellion and whatnot...so how do you reconcile this?

Very good question.Actually this has already been answered and I believe refuted by Gap Theorists because this is a common thing critics of it ask. But if there was a former world that perished,how would it have had any bearing on this world? God simply restored the heavens and earth and made this world and when Adam and Eve sinned in this world death and evil spread to all of man needing redemption through Jesus Christ.

IMO this is one reason why I prefer Gap Theory old earth creationism over Day Age creationism or Theistic evolution, it does'nt apply to Gap Theory old earth creationism.

I have a link somewhere in this thread that refutes the arguments that have been used against the Gap theory.It was in response to a link somebody posted of William Lane Craig rejecting the Gap Theory and the reasons he rejected it. I felt like it covers and answers his refutation of the Gap Theory.

Philip wrote:Gap Theory is also known by the term "Restitution Theory."

Here, well-known Bible scholar Bruce Watke reveals it's key problems, including the grammar issues, in a detailed assessment: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

Well I read it but I don't know what creation theory he accepts so it is hard for me to judge compared to what he believes. I would need to know what creation theory he accepts and then compare it to Gap Theory creationism. I can't just believe him without knowing where he is coming from. We all cannot be right,somebody is wrong and we actually have evidence for a former world that perished so right now it confirms their was a former world that perished.We have what we believe is the bible telling us a former world perished and God's creation confirming this interpretation. However we are not looking at it from an evolution point of view. We can't stand evolution because Charles Darwin took our evidence away and made it fit into evolution and every since then the modern scientific elite have been "hoodwinked" and the truth of God's word ignored.

I'm going to post some of Arthur Custance's work,where he tries to trace the Gap Theory back as far as he can go and you can read it and decide what you think. It is alot to read but interesting to me.You can read it and see what you think.
http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Philip wrote:Gap Theory is also known by the term "Restitution Theory."

Here, well-known Bible scholar Bruce Watke reveals it's key problems, including the grammar issues, in a detailed assessment: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

Well I read it but I don't know what creation theory he accepts so it is hard for me to judge compared to what he believes. I would need to know what creation theory he accepts and then compare it to Gap Theory creationism. I can't just believe him without knowing where he is coming from. We all cannot be right,somebody is wrong and we actually have evidence for a former world that perished so right now it confirms their was a former world that perished.We have what we believe is the bible telling us a former world perished and God's creation confirming this interpretation. However we are not looking at it from an evolution point of view. We can't stand evolution because Charles Darwin took our evidence away and made it fit into evolution and every since then the modern scientific elite have been "hoodwinked" and the truth of God's word ignored.

What difference does his creation stance make?

Storyteller wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Philip wrote:Gap Theory is also known by the term "Restitution Theory."

Here, well-known Bible scholar Bruce Watke reveals it's key problems, including the grammar issues, in a detailed assessment: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

Well I read it but I don't know what creation theory he accepts so it is hard for me to judge compared to what he believes. I would need to know what creation theory he accepts and then compare it to Gap Theory creationism. I can't just believe him without knowing where he is coming from. We all cannot be right,somebody is wrong and we actually have evidence for a former world that perished so right now it confirms their was a former world that perished.We have what we believe is the bible telling us a former world perished and God's creation confirming this interpretation. However we are not looking at it from an evolution point of view. We can't stand evolution because Charles Darwin took our evidence away and made it fit into evolution and every since then the modern scientific elite have been "hoodwinked" and the truth of God's word ignored.

What difference does his creation stance make?

Great point Storyteller. I was thinking the exact same thing. Bruce Waltke's creation beliefs have no bearing on whether or not his assessment of the Gap Theory is correct. None whatsoever.

Neo: " Yet long before Adam—if the Gap Theory is correct—there existed a pre-Adamic race of men with their own sins and rebellion and whatnot...so how do you reconcile this?"

Philip: Of course, there is yet another possibility, that there WERE pre-Adamic men, but that Adam and Eve were the first, not of ALL mankind, but of God's chosen Adam to Christ lineage. So, the two main Creation accounts MIGHT be speaking of, first the Macro: God creates the universe and world, and eventually, creates the first men. And THEN, the movie eventually shifts to the next scene, which comes later, with the Micro: Adam and Eve are created and put into the Garden. This scenario STILL doesn't mean there was a former world that was destroyed, and it doesn't discount that there was ONE flood that killed ALL mankind, and at least to the extent of the geography that they had inhabited up to that time (excepting those on the Ark).

Edited to add:

The above scenario would be similar to how God created first created all mankind, dispersed them into tribes and nations, and then from those nations, He creates His own covenant people and nation, Israel. This possibility, along with it's challenges and implications, is explored in detail by Dr. Michael Heiser, here: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible ... -research/ The link also has a discussion with others over the merits and deficits of a pre-Adamic people.

Heiser speaks of a few things the described scenario would solve, though he's not totally convinced of it:

Heiser: "The traditional view DOES need to invent long stretches of time to avoid Cain building a city by himself. And is the text really saying that Cain feared people yet unborn would kill him in 20 years or so?! That’s special pleading if there ever was any. It’s a real problem, not an imagined one. In other words, regardless of the Adam issue, these are problems for a traditional view of Adamic humanity, and have been well traveled for centuries (I didn’t discover them for discussion in the post).

The post was intended (as I keep saying) as an exercise in reading the text at face value in the event the statistical genetics argument put forth by Venema (and embraced by others) is correct. I’m not married to it (only dating it, as it has some real advantages). Someone holding that view would say the “dust” language simply refers to humanity from Adam’s line (and then they could say, “that’s basically *all* humanity after the flood anyway — go read the Table of Nations”).

Storyteller wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Philip wrote:Gap Theory is also known by the term "Restitution Theory."

Here, well-known Bible scholar Bruce Watke reveals it's key problems, including the grammar issues, in a detailed assessment: http://www.michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedB ... Theory.pdf

Well I read it but I don't know what creation theory he accepts so it is hard for me to judge compared to what he believes. I would need to know what creation theory he accepts and then compare it to Gap Theory creationism. I can't just believe him without knowing where he is coming from. We all cannot be right,somebody is wrong and we actually have evidence for a former world that perished so right now it confirms their was a former world that perished.We have what we believe is the bible telling us a former world perished and God's creation confirming this interpretation. However we are not looking at it from an evolution point of view. We can't stand evolution because Charles Darwin took our evidence away and made it fit into evolution and every since then the modern scientific elite have been "hoodwinked" and the truth of God's word ignored.

What difference does his creation stance make?

None, has no bearing on one's salvation or being more favored or unfavored by God. People should not make it such an issue that divides and causes strife within the body of Christ.

GAP theory is one theory among several concerning creation. It was once taught as the norm in bible colleges.

Old Earth and progressive Old Earth Creation are other theories on creation and the GAP hold no threat to these views.

Young Earth Creation is another theory for an aprox 6,900 year old earth.

The bible is vague on the precise date of the earth and that is okay with me. God can create and do things however he wants too and does not have to tell us about it. I have no problem with that.

All I can suggest is that folks thank God he created in the first place and had the plan of redemption in mind before anything ever was. Just recall spreading division by prideful quarreling to be right at all cost is a wrong according to the apostles writings.
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I went from OEC to TE to PC back to TE and to be honest, none of that really affected my faith in God or the bible.
It was just how I was reconciling science with the bible.
It truly doesn't matter that much at all IMO.
By the way, evolution is now to Darwin what space travel is to Da Vinic.

PaulSacramento wrote:I went from OEC to TE to PC back to TE and to be honest, none of that really affected my faith in God or the bible.
It was just how I was reconciling science with the bible.
It truly doesn't matter that much at all IMO.
By the way, evolution is now to Darwin what space travel is to Da Vinic.

Don't get me started about evolution because all the evidence will show and demonstrate is that God created life to breed and produce after its kind. I used to be YEC and then I got into Intelligent design for alittle while,then I discovered Gap Theory creationism.What is appealing to you about TE? How do you get passed the question of death before Adam?

abelcainsbrother wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I went from OEC to TE to PC back to TE and to be honest, none of that really affected my faith in God or the bible.
It was just how I was reconciling science with the bible.
It truly doesn't matter that much at all IMO.
By the way, evolution is now to Darwin what space travel is to Da Vinic.

Don't get me started about evolution because all the evidence will show and demonstrate is that God created life to breed and produce after its kind. I used to be YEC and then I got into Intelligent design for alittle while,then I discovered Gap Theory creationism.What is appealing to you about TE? How do you get passed the question of death before Adam?

Abel, you have no correct understanding of evolution, far less of TE.
I tried in the past to explain and you just either didn't get or didn't want to, either way aI am not going there.

I will simply ask you this:

Do you believe that what we believe in regards to creation leads us to salvation or is required to be saved?