Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:01 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Why?

Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?

Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
Didn't Jesus go down into hell to preach? 1 Peter 3:19

The verse is probably talking about us as prisoners and slaves to sin, but who knows............
Jesus desended to hell to preach the Gospel to those who did not get a chance to hear Him while living.

Hebrews 9:27 says no, there is no redemption after death, only the judgement.
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction.

Where's the contradiction? Do you think it would have been fair for the OT saints to not have a single opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved by it?

Posted: **Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:11 pm**

Byblos wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Why?

Do you not think that when you meet God we could be given another chance? Or even at the gateway to hell? Or possibly even in hell?

Genuine questions as I am exploring how I feel about this having only just started reading Scripture.
Didn't Jesus go down into hell to preach? 1 Peter 3:19

The verse is probably talking about us as prisoners and slaves to sin, but who knows............
Jesus desended to hell to preach the Gospel to those who did not get a chance to hear Him while living.

Hebrews 9:27 says no, there is no redemption after death, only the judgement.
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
Where's the contradiction? Do you think it would have been fair for the OT saints to not have a single opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved by it?

Well you said Jesus went to hell to preach to those who did not hear his message, then in the next breath you said there is no salvation after death and only judgement. Now you are saying it was only for OT saints, so does this mean that people who have not heard the Gospel after the life, death and resurrection of Jesus cannot be saved? I don't think it is as cut and dry as institutionalised religion makes it out to be..................................

Posted: **Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:23 pm**

My understanding of 1 Pet 3:19 is that Jesus went across the gulf in Paradise, found in Luke 16 to preach to all those who died in the past.

1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I understand Hebrews 9:27 to mean that it is appointed for "flesh" man to die once and then the judgment. So I understand the Second Death very simply to mean that some are going to die twice. First their flesh dies as described in Heb 9:27 and then their soul dies in Rev 20 when they fail the final judgment.

Posted: **Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:25 pm**

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Well you said Jesus went to hell to preach to those who did not hear his message, then in the next breath you said there is no salvation after death and only judgement. Now you are saying it was only for OT saints, so does this mean that people who have not heard the Gospel after the life, death and resurrection of Jesus cannot be saved? I don't think it is as cut and dry as institutionalised religion makes it out to be..................................

It is actually quite clear, even though this is a difficult passage.

There is no second chance. Die without God's salvation and you are toast. You go to Hell. Period.

Here is a hint: the Bible never uses the word spirit to refer to a dead person. Spirit is 1) a word reserved for living persons, 2) for beings in the supernatural realm, and 3) for the Spirit of God. Dead humans are refered to as souls.

Read the whole context of 1 Pe 3:19 and look up every relevant reference in a study Bible.

Another thing: the passage could not be about souls in Hell because the people there would reject the Word anyway...that's why they're there in the first place!

Anonymous

Posted: **Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:30 pm**

I think Dan's right, I don't think its as cut and dry as institutionalised religion makes it out to be.
Hebrews 9:27 says we die then we are judged. I don't think that it any way rules out the possibility of a person gaining salvation as they are passing from the physical into the spiritual.
I have for the past year been reading and watching everything I can get my hands on concerning NDE, not that I would take these accounts over scripture, there of course could be cases of deception or just out lying but nevertheless it has been fascinating.
There have been athiests who as they felt themselves 'passing over' felt overwhelmed to cry out to Jesus. Who felt his love and forgiveness and are now Christians.
There have been cases of people of various other religions who found themselves in a dark void or hell who knew in the spiritual that Jesus was the answer despite never believing this in 'life' who reached out to Him and were 'saved'. Some have gone on to preach and share their experiences with as many people that they can touch.

I don't think we can know for certain either way, God's perfect will be done but I can never underestimate His enormous love and forgiveness.
Jesus is the way and the truth, perhaps some realise this truth a little later than others.
Is it too late??
Well that's in Gods hands.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:17 am**

B. W. wrote:Starhunter,

I respect your christian faith and know with absolute certainty things will be explained to you after in the afterlife concerning God's character not extinguishing life he gave into an non-existing state where one finds peace in oblivion. For to do so would cause God to deny himself and all he is according to his nature and character; that God will never do. I also understand how Christians like to think of mercy killing as justified and loving, yet, it is still murder nevertheless. Folks have inserted their human definition of love and made it into a reflection that defines God's love. That is great error. Human beings are born into this world and at that point of birth all are eternal beings due to God reneging on no gift. The most wicked of folks love their wickedness more than anything else and above all else and they will suffer in that wickedness in living state for eternity. Thus, there are absolute true consequences for rejecting the salvation offered by God to the fallen rebels in humanity.

Annihilationism only makes one feel good and for some, morally superior, providing an easy escape for the most wicked into the peace that oblivion brings. There are symbols used in the bible to convey profound truths. in Genesis chapter two and three the phrase surely Die in ancient Hebrew is the same word used twice DIE! DIE! added for emphasis as well as symbol of two deaths mentioned in Revelation's Book. Death is not soul sleep that brings peace of oblivion. Death is the entry way into a new lie more real than this mortal one we currently live. This flesh will die and we will awake into a new state of being and in that state to remain forever in, both sinner and saint. Recall that God is no respecter of persons nor shows personal favoritism. Annihilationism teaches that God is shows favoritism by allowing one group to eternally exist and another to find peace by the means of oblivion. One is denied life, God's gift of life, the other has it. Thus God is not a God of the living in the absolute sense, is he?

I suggest you review the phrases of eternal life (Zoe) and realize that God offers an escape from a certain eternal living fate to all humanity through Jesus Christ - it is eternal life with the Lord reconciled back to him and his original design. The unsaved have life that continues on too, however, in a state they so choose and want. In this God is also Just. I understand that for some this is hard to accept and as Christians we are under his Grace and on the same team. So with that, I know that because the doctrine of hell is hard to grasp I know the Lord in time, through grace will help believers in Jesus understand the deeper things of God such as eternal recompense and how God really is: God sovereign. I understand why folks like to air-condition hell but with that, the most ardent evil of people will mock knowing that they can truly get away with their crimes - eternally.

Think about it a bit more and blessings to you
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The judgement is not watered down by annihilation at all. Jesus suffered greatly, on a level no human being has endured, but which they will suffer if they refuse Him.

The pain of seeing heaven and missing out, the record of their rejections of truth and the spirits pleadings will cause intense agony, weeping, it is not a pretty place and the results of their crimes will be felt so that justice is met.
But protracted torture is of the Devil, who also will perish under the exactitude of Karma.

If the second death is eternal torture, Christ never paid that penalty on the cross. He suffered extremely and died. That's the truth.

Any pain, no matter how small is an impossibly high amount of torture over time,
I like you too BW, so please just accept it as my view which I am adamant about. I don't want to offend anyone, but you can understand why I would oppose this doctrine of long torture...

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:22 am**

melanie wrote:I think Dan's right, I don't think its as cut and dry as institutionalised religion makes it out to be.

For the record, I am of the opinion that "institutionalized religion" - to use your term - is largely a load of crap. God even states that He hates it! However, we are not talking about the beliefs of any system of formalized worship. The subject here is what the Word of God, the Bible, has to say about hell.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It doesn't say one thing here and another thing there. As far as hell is concerened, the Bible is clear: all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; if you die in your sin, you go to hell. There is no second chance.

1 Pe 3:19 has nothing at all to do with a second chance for Salvation after death or with Jesus preaching in hell. Anyone holding this view is reading the text backwards. (Such a view is nonsense on several levels!)

FL

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:28 am**

Starhunter wrote:
But protracted torture is of the Devil, who also will perish under the exactitude of Karma.

Let's see...you say the god of those who believe in eternal hell is insane and perverted, yet your god will use a Buddhist law to punish the Devil.

Alrighty then!

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:34 am**

RickD wrote:
Starhunter wrote:
But protracted torture is of the Devil, who also will perish under the exactitude of Karma.
Let's see...you say the god of those who believe in eternal hell is insane and perverted, yet your god will use a Buddhist law to punish the Devil.

Alrighty then!

Thanks Rick - you have a great sense of humor.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:57 am**

RickD wrote:Let's see...you say the god of those who believe in eternal hell is insane and perverted, yet your god will use a Buddhist law to punish the Devil.

This is quite a coincidence: my wife just sent me a photo of a Husky walking on Hudsn's Bay. The dog's name is Buddha...no kidding! BUDDHA WALKS ON WATER TOO!

FL

PS I wish I was smart enough to reproduce the photo here because it is quite striking.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:06 am**

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
RickD wrote:Let's see...you say the god of those who believe in eternal hell is insane and perverted, yet your god will use a Buddhist law to punish the Devil.
This is quite a coincidence: my wife just sent me a photo of a Husky walking on Hudsn's Bay. The dog's name is Buddha...no kidding! BUDDHA WALKS ON WATER TOO!

FL

PS I wish I was smart enough to reproduce the photo here because it is quite striking.

It's funny that when I read your post, I wasn't amazed by a dog that walks on water. I was amazed at the differences of the English language between the US, and other english speaking countries. For example, in Britain, they use an extra vowel. An extra u. Honour, flavour, humour, etc. But in Canada, you omit vowels. Hudsn.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:09 am**

RickD wrote:It's funny that when I read your post, I wasn't amazed by a dog that walks on water. I was amazed at the differences of the English language between the US, and other english speaking countries. For example, in Britain, they use an extra vowel. An extra u. Honour, flavour, humour, etc. But in Canada, you omit vowels. Hudsn

Nope...that's just my early onset Alzheimers! it's Hudson's Bay...please convice Queen Hana to put Buddha's pic here!

FL

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:13 am**

RickD wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
RickD wrote:Let's see...you say the god of those who believe in eternal hell is insane and perverted, yet your god will use a Buddhist law to punish the Devil.
This is quite a coincidence: my wife just sent me a photo of a Husky walking on Hudsn's Bay. The dog's name is Buddha...no kidding! BUDDHA WALKS ON WATER TOO!

FL

PS I wish I was smart enough to reproduce the photo here because it is quite striking.
It's funny that when I read your post, I wasn't amazed by a dog that walks on water. I was amazed at the differences of the English language between the US, and other english speaking countries. For example, in Britain, they use an extra vowel. An extra u. Honour, flavour, humour, etc. But in Canada, you omit vowels. Hudsn.

That`s because we spell properly

Unless, of course, I`m on my kvindle

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:24 am**

Storyteller wrote:
RickD wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
RickD wrote:Let's see...you say the god of those who believe in eternal hell is insane and perverted, yet your god will use a Buddhist law to punish the Devil.
This is quite a coincidence: my wife just sent me a photo of a Husky walking on Hudsn's Bay. The dog's name is Buddha...no kidding! BUDDHA WALKS ON WATER TOO!

FL

PS I wish I was smart enough to reproduce the photo here because it is quite striking.
It's funny that when I read your post, I wasn't amazed by a dog that walks on water. I was amazed at the differences of the English language between the US, and other english speaking countries. For example, in Britain, they use an extra vowel. An extra u. Honour, flavour, humour, etc. But in Canada, you omit vowels. Hudsn.
That`s because we spell properly

Unless, of course, I`m on my kvindle

Of course, Brits are proper! Except at the airport. Did I ever tell you the story of how my grandmother got stopped and arrested at Heathrow Airport, for smuggling in toothpaste?

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:32 am**

No, ou didn`t.

But something tells me you might

I got asked at Sydney airport, years ago, if I would hold a hanbag for a sniffer dog. Did wonder why they asked me. Maybe it was the fact i had a rucksack, was wearing flip flops and a t-shirt? Was it really that obvious I was a traveller?

Was great fun though!

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