Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:

FFC wrote:Wait, Bart, are you saying we can't possibly know all there is about the mind of God and his ways !?

That does seem to be a recurring theme with me, doesn't it?

Yes, but it is very true and I'm glad to hear it. It helps keep me grounded.

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

Three Questions.

1.) If God already "foreknew" the that Christ would be crucified, then was it not inevitable? Why was it inevitable?

2.) How would you interpret Isaiah 53:10 and Acts 3:18, which plainly tell us that God did the work?

3.) How about Acts 4:27-28?

Easy - God predestined the plan of salvation.

The rest is based on how God carried this out. Did he use force, strings, to manipulate? Or did he do so by making a public show of them openly, exposing sin for what it is which would mean — God sovereignly is more than capable to work through the foreseen acts of free minded men.

This would make God have that all powerful ability I wrote so much about. To use force, coercion, strings, to manipulate causes God to deny his all powerful ability. God had it all planned — I suggest you reassess how God carried out His plan. He placed people in place/time and made a show of them all and us too.

Who tried, convicted, and placed Jesus [God] on the cross was humanity and the evil one. That was God plan and he carried it out with profound wisdom. He exposed sin, what it is, and does. Jesus paid the price of redemption profoundly. You deny this?

How powerful is the blood of Christ? If the blood shed on the cross cannot atone for sins of the entire world of humanity then no one can be saved. THIS DOES NOT MERIT UNIVERSAL SALVATION. THIS DOES NOT MERIT UNIVERSAL SALVATION. THIS DOES NOT MERIT UNIVERSAL SALVATION.
THIS DOES NOT MERIT UNIVERSAL SALVATION.

INSTEAD: IT PAVES THE WAY FOR GOD TO PROVE HIMSELF AND PROVIDES A CATALYST FOR SORTING THOSE THAT WILL BELIEVE AND THOSE THAT WILL NOT - WHOM GOD FOREKNOWS BASED ON HIS WORK, HIS CALL, THAT WITHOUT 'NO ONE' COULD BE SAVED.

So in essence are you stating that God is weak and absolutely unable to sovereignly work through the foreseen acts of free minded men in the most profound just, righteous, wise, loving, fair, merciful, ways that he has to make people sin to punish sinners: this makes God the author of sin, PL — you cannot escape this fact of pure determinism.

Fact is God is absolutely more than capable to work through the foreseen acts of free minded men to carry out his plans — that is true power PL.

Think on it for awhile — God can work through the foreseen acts of free minded men to carry out his plans, thus proving God is not the author of sin leaving sin as the creatures own making a public spectacle of it for all the world to see and marvel as it is written:

1 John 3:8, “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” KJV

Hmm - God's will revealed - his purpose declared!

What else can be said? From this I hope you can see how God WORKS through the foreseen acts of free minded men and women to carry out his plans and not - Not: God ACTS through the foreseen acts of coerced men and women to carry out his plans as the determinist teach misusing principles of sola scripture as proof text.

One destroys the sovereignty of God causing God to deny himself — the other way proves God is who and all that he is: All Powerful! Read the work of the cross again and see how God worked through the works of men to carry out his plan that calls down through the centuries in a wonderful public display!

Amen! I will freely fall to the ground and bow before my God my Father, Jesus my Lord, and Holy Spirit Divine who is wonderful, awesome, terrible, mighty, just, fair, kind, merciful, loving, righteous, all wise, all knowing, all powerful! Will any among you join me?
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Let's take the time to go through each determinist proof text and provide the context and see what we shall see — after all — this thread has been ordained before time began to happen

Proverbs 25:2 tells us what? Yes God conceals things in a mystery so one will search. Seek and you will find...

John 6:37-40

John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” KJV

A remarkable statement made by Jesus is it not? Jesus explaining the will of the Father which is that everyone that sees the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life! In this text it explains how God the Father gives and draws people to Christ Jesus. It is as Jesus said, "And this is the will of the One having sent me, that every [one] looking on the Son and believing [or, trusting] in Him shall be having eternal life, and —I-will raise him up on the last day." ALT

It is a shame that determinist are determined to use principles of 'sola scripture' to proof text the doctrine of election and predestination in such a manner that sully the Lord of Glory. Thus they avoid the issues that arise from the contextual flow of scripture tied directly to John 6:37, “Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me…” GNB

Look at the contextual flow:

John 6:37-40, “Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me, 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. 40 For what my Father wants is that all who see the Son and believe in him should have eternal life. And I will raise them to life on the last day." GNB

John 6:37, "All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me I shall by no means cast out. 38 "Because I have come down out of heaven, not so that I shall be doing My will, _but_ the will of the One having sent Me. 39 "And this is the will of the Father having sent Me, that out of all which He has given to Me I will not lose [any of] it, _but_ I will raise it up {in} the last day. 40 "And this is the will of the One having sent me, that every [one] looking on the Son and believing [or, trusting] in Him shall be having eternal life, and _I_ will raise him up on the last day." ALT

"...All that the Father wills to give Jesus are every [one] looking on the Son and believing [or, trusting] in Him shall be having eternal life, and _I_ will raise him up on the last day." ALT

God knows who are His because He is God that foreknows all things. The Lord has a plan to redeem — the plan of salvation is the means God uses to elect. God calls out to all. He sorts the wheat from the chaff. To sort requires including everyone. From amongst everyone, some will hear, understand, and be justified while others will not. It is that simple. God is not the author of sin. Otherwise he is no matter what proof-texting is used to say it is God's will is to make the wicked-wicked so he can punish them eternally just to keep the elect in line and/or just to prove he is a sovereign Lord [which is the main thrust of determinisms stance to prove]

Human beings are responsible for their own actions regarding this matter: how they respond to this call or not. God's will is for everyone looking on the Son and believing [trusting] in Him shall be having eternal life, and Jesus will raise him up on the last day. To do this involves calling everyone. The bible declares much about God sorting and testing humanity.

Christ Died and was risen from the Dead for all, not a few. Why? So Justice is proved — God's justice. God judges with righteous judgment. To damn without informing why or justifying without explanation is not God's way. To just select on a sovereign whim is not just. God has a reason and purpose for everything under heaven and he declared he will tell people of what He intends before it comes to pass. Isaiah 42:9, Ecclesiastes 3:1, Ecclesiastes 3:11, Isaiah 14:24-27, Isaiah 53:1-7.

God proves his awesome justice, displays' his righteousness, and demonstrates his profound grace, establishes his call-test, proving in the process that he sovereignly works through all the works of free minded beings leading them to make an eternal choice. Otherwise, he cannot hold accountable the wicked if he made them to be wicked.

Without God calling — no one could choose — nobody could be the elect. This is not based on human works but solely on the Lord as scriptures plainly attest.
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Isaiah 53:10 — Proof Text for Determinism or not?

Is Isaiah 53:10 a proof text for determinism or is it taken out of biblical context to prove human opinion?

Isaiah 53:10, “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [crush] him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” KJV

Isaiah 53:10, “Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:” JPS

Do you know that Isaiah verses 1 through 9 come before verse 10 and that these verses preceding verse 10 explain the meaning of verse 10?

Isaiah 53:1-6, “Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him. 3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.” JPS

In fact Verses 4-5 tells who crushed Jesus — he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

Which lines up with the statement in Acts 2:23-24, “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.” KJV

Yet as it is written in Isaiah 53:4, “Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted,” people view God as smiting Jesus and crushing him and a wrong concept about God is solidified.

Again it states in Isaiah 53:10, “Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:” JPS

What is the scripture really saying? The disease is sin. The Lord's determined counsel and foreknowledge planned that Jesus would be crushed by the disease of sin as a sin offering for all humanity. How is an offering for sin made?

Leviticus 4:22-29 reveals how: you confess the sin over the offering and laying your hands upon it to impart sin onto the offering. God is without sin. During the trial of Jesus the sin of Blasphemy was confessed over Jesus, during the ensuing scenes people laid their hands upon Jesus; thus, Jesus was crushed by the disease of sin as a sin offering for all humanity as Isaiah wrote. See also Leviticus 5:5-6, Leviticus 5:16-19, Leviticus 16:5-34, Hebrews 10:1-23 for more information regarding this.

This was God's predetermined counsel and foreknowledge — Jesus would be that offering for sin. God worked through people by placing them there at that specific time foreknowing more about them than we can humanly comprehend. What they did to Jesus was of their own free volition because they were sick — all as God foresaw.

Imagine how powerful God is to work through the free acts of human beings to carry out a plan so divinely wise and profound that proves the nature, character, and wisdom of God! He did not make these people do this to Jesus, he knew beforehand that because Jesus would come they would act they way they did; thus, God worked through their acts to achieve his goal in a manner no-one before hand could have conceived. That is truly a sovereign act of an all powerful God!

God steers, directs, and by this method can place 'hooks' in a nation to bring his counsel to pass — that is part of his mode of operation. The bible does teach this about God. It is God's method of carrying out his will that creates the problem for both determinist and Armenian points of view. God works through free minded beings as he so chooses and nothing can stay his hand. Again, this proves what about God?

Only an act of God can heal the disease of sin. Humanity had to place their sin upon Jesus. Why? It is impossible for God to sin and God is not the author of it either. The author of sin is exposed during the work of redemption as it is written in 1 John 3:8, "He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." NIV

Isaiah 53:4, “Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.” JPS

Isaiah 53:10, “Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:” JPS

Notice Isaiah 53:10, … that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:” JPS

His seed — are those God foresaw would hear and understand and be healed as he cannot help but know from amongst all humanity. This is God's work, his call, his work; no human being could have conceive the method of operation God used to carry out this plan, until Jesus fulfilled it. It is part of God's method of selecting — not human agency.

Without the call, none could be saved. Without the public demonstration — none could be saved. Now listen to Matthew 13:14-23. The lot is cast into the lap and the final verdict, decision for ones final destination comes from the Lord. How?

John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” KJV

God draws all people unto himself by confronting them with this choice: Believe in Christ or not. By this choice - Sin remains the creature's own — not God's doing. What is the readers choice? Life or death?
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Excellent post BW!

Just as an Edit... I started studying and reading Levitcus. Thank you for that post and study as it hit home with me

B.W.,

I have already, multiple times, refuted your view of "foreknowledge", so I see no need (or purpose) of repeating myself in that regard. It is not enough to suggest that God predestined the offering for sins without predestining the means for that offering. Peter was very clear why Jesus was delivered into the hand of wicked men; "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). In this passage, foreknowledge cannot be a foreseen faith, for it is used in conjunction with God's determinate counsel, and the phrase means exactly what it says. For what God showed to the prophets concerning Christ's suffering, He Himself fulfilled, ie. He did the act. (Acts 3:18). Those wicked men were all "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8). Note well, it was the people that were appointed to be disobedient, not merely their actions. They "gathered together against your holy servant Jesus ... to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:27-28). No lengthy exposition is necessary, unless the goal is to explain away the clear meaning of the text. These scriptuires are quite clear and are not hard to understand. It's just that some people cannot come to grips with the idea that God sovereignly works in the sinful acts of wicked men. They just have to have that "free will" and "human ability" in there somewhere, even though it is absent in the Bible.

By the way, did you ever deal with 2 Samuel 12:11-12? I didn't read your entire post.

In any case, I think I've made a thorough and lengthy case for the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. I have yet to see any real refutation, but merely attempts to explain away certain scriptures, all under the idea that human ability actually exists. Even if a few of the scriptures are explained away by texual criticism, there are just too many scriptures supporting my case. The best thing that the opposition can do is find one single verse to support human ability. Explaining away a few of the multitude of passages I've presented, even if successful, does not make the case for "free will" salvation. When a serious refutation arises, I'll deal with it. In the meantime, I'll let my case stand on what I've written so far.

God Bless,

PL

2 Samuel 12:11-12? Puritan Lad? That is the following: 11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

puritan lad wrote:B.W.,

I have already, multiple times, refuted your view of "foreknowledge", so I see no need (or purpose) of repeating myself in that regard. It is not enough to suggest that God predestined the offering for sins without predestining the means for that offering. Peter was very clear why Jesus was delivered into the hand of wicked men; "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23). In this passage, foreknowledge cannot be a foreseen faith, for it is used in conjunction with God's determinate counsel, and the phrase means exactly what it says. For what God showed to the prophets concerning Christ's suffering, He Himself fulfilled, ie. He did the act. (Acts 3:18). Those wicked men were all "disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:8). Note well, it was the people that were appointed to be disobedient, not merely their actions. They "gathered together against your holy servant Jesus ... to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." (Acts 4:27-28). No lengthy exposition is necessary, unless the goal is to explain away the clear meaning of the text. These scriptuires are quite clear and are not hard to understand. It's just that some people cannot come to grips with the idea that God sovereignly works in the sinful acts of wicked men. They just have to have that "free will" and "human ability" in there somewhere, even though it is absent in the Bible.

By the way, did you ever deal with 2 Samuel 12:11-12? I didn't read your entire post.

In any case, I think I've made a thorough and lengthy case for the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace. I have yet to see any real refutation, but merely attempts to explain away certain scriptures, all under the idea that human ability actually exists. Even if a few of the scriptures are explained away by texual criticism, there are just too many scriptures supporting my case. The best thing that the opposition can do is find one single verse to support human ability. Explaining away a few of the multitude of passages I've presented, even if successful, does not make the case for "free will" salvation. When a serious refutation arises, I'll deal with it. In the meantime, I'll let my case stand on what I've written so far.

God Bless, PL

Pl - in response - you cannot see, nor hear, and only assume what a person is saying. Now onto the next proof text Acts 13:48 that is used by determinist. The question for this text was why was the 'believe' been placed at the end of the sentence when in Greek text its placement is vital for understanding the text?

Acts 13:48

It is interesting that in the Greek bible that one word has been moved from its rightful place in the English translation of Acts 13:48: The word is believe. It has been placed at the end of the sentence; thus changing the entire meaning of the text. Why is that? Anyone know?

Acts 13:48,” Greek New Testament

Note - I tried to copy greek text in here but forum does not read it very well.

As you can see, the Greek word 4100 —Believe- comes before the Greek word 5021 — appoint. How come —believe- was switched in many English translations to read last? Look at the Darby Translation, Young's Literal Translation, and Wycliffe New Testament. The correct word order for believe is adhered too:

Acts 13:48, “[those of] the nations, hearing it, rejoiced, and glorified the word of the Lord, and believed, as many as were ordained to eternal life.” Darby Translation

Acts 13:48, “And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;” Young's Literal Translation

Acts 13:48, “And heathen men heard, and joyed, and glorified the word of the Lord; and believed, as many as were before-ordained to everlasting life. [Soothly heathen men hearing joyed, and glorified the word of the Lord; and believed, how many ever were ordained to everlasting life.]” Wycliffe New Testament

Here I have placed the word believe in its correct order from the KJV: Act 13:48, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.”

The translation has changed as well as it meaning. Now add in the Greek word translated appoint, ordain — 'tasso' but spelled in the Greek bible as 'tetagmenoi' and a different picture emerges from the hermeneutic of the text.

Note that 5021 - 'tetagmenoi' is not spelled “tasso” which is how the actual Greek word is spelled to denote 'appoint-ordain.' Rather it is spelled in the Perfect Participle Passive and the Predicate Nominative of Greek and thus: 'tetagmenoi' instead of 'tasso.' There is a difference in spelling. This difference also clarifies the meaning of this word used as more in the sense of enrolled or inscribe.

Let's look further into the mystery of the Greek word 'tasso' and how it was used in classical Greek as well as the common meanings used in the day this passage was written.

The Greek word 'tasso' in the classical sense was a word that was a military term describing the drawing up of units into battle array, to arrange in a military sense, to put things in order in a military sense, command in a military sense. To give orders, appoint or ordain a chain of command.

Also, 'Tasso' was a word that denoted the mustering of troops together i.e. the whole process of mustering troops, training, commanding them, and ordering them, placing them in battle position. It also described the process of adding you name to the muster roll — hence inscribe or enrolled to military service when the call for volunteers or conscription was given. The officer on duty would write the name of the volunteer or conscript to the Unit Muster — hence — they were 'tetagmenoi' into service

The Perfect Participle Passive and the Predicate Nominative use of the word spelled as 'tetagmenoi' denotes the mustering for service — hence — mustered, enrolled, with the idea of having your name inscribed in the Unit Muster roll book.

With this in mind now read Acts 13:48, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as believed were mustered, appointed, ordained, enrolled, into [1519- eis — Gk preposition meaning motion into something to remain where it is going] eternal life.”

Question: Does other scriptures back this translation up - As many as believed were mustered, enrolled, appointed, ordained into eternal life?

You decide: Luke 8:13, John 1:7-12, John 3:15-21, John 6:29, John 6:40, John 17:20-22, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Galatians 3:22, 1 Peter 1:21, 1 Peter 2:7, and 1 John 3:23, 1 John 5:13: in fact the answer is a resounding yes!

Now why was it that so many English translations change the word order used in the Greek text? The answer is — I do not know?

Without God's call, none could be saved, and mustered into God's eternal kingdom. That is known.

It appears that the call of God — His declaration of salvation truly engages a foreknown response in people. This response is foreknown by God and thus He can very well pre-write a person's name in His book of Life all because God took the time and initiative to call. God's call and his ability to know all things pertaining to His call — its effect on a person, is the tool God uses to shape each individual member of humanity as he so wills, even handedly, perfectly, without fault or injustice to the creature, graciously, justly, rightly, etc. Now that is all powerful is it not?

For a non-Christian, they do not know if their name was inscribed until they truly believe in the one God sent: Jesus Christ. It may even be that through someone's prayer — God may now be inscribing you into his roll book. Never limit the power of God to change his mind or not change his mind. It's time for you the reader to believe and have your name inscribed into Lambs Book of Life! Come!

For others - Why was the word Believe changed in the Greek word order? Anyone rightly know?
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LowlyOne wrote:2 Samuel 12:11-12? Puritan Lad? That is the following: 11 "This is what the LORD says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' "

Yes LO.

This is the pronouncement of judgment upon David concerning Absalom's incest. God says, "I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel". Did God actually do that? Where does Absalom's "free will" come in?

B.W.

The order of the verbs matters not. The point is that they were appointed. I'm still waiting for a single verse that says that they had the ability of their own free will to believe. I've only given a dozen or so that says otherwise.

PL

puritan lad wrote:B.W.

The order of the verbs matters not. The point is that they were appointed. I'm still waiting for a single verse that says that they had the ability of their own free will to believe. I've only given a dozen or so that says otherwise.

PL

Response: I have given you many - Acts 13:48 is one that does - How can you justify changing the Greek word order for Believe when there is no concert reason for doing so?

Now,

To answer your question regarding 2 Samuel I will answer your question with another question as I have already done earlier but do not recall your answer. If you can answer my question, then I will answer yours. The question was:

Did God predestine King David break six of the Ten Commandments in order to use the wicked in the manner you described?

Note: King David broke four obvious commandments and two not so obvious. The obvious are as follows: 6 - You must not murder. 7 - You must not commit adultery. 8 - You must not steal. 10- You must not desire another man's wife.

The not so obvious Commandments are 1-You must not have any other gods besides me, 2-You must not make for yourself an image of anything in heaven above, on earth below, or in the waters beneath.You must not worship or serve them .

Let's look at the the not so obvious commandments one at a time and see how King David broke these: 1-You must not have any other gods besides me. David broke this command by placing his own self will above God and served the God of his lustful desires.

2-You must not make for yourself an image of anything in heaven above, on earth below, or in the waters beneath.You must not worship or serve them. David made an image within his heart about Bathsheba and justified his lust for her and to attain her at any cost. By his actions He worshiped her above the Lord God.

There is an objective lesson to be learned from this: Do not Sin That Grace May Abound — there are consequences for such behavior as it is written: “I punish the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons for the sin of the fathers who reject me, but I show covenant faithfulness to the thousands who choose me and keep my commandments.

This describes what happened to King David's family. What happened later was a consequence of his actions with Bathsheba and her husband Uriah. Therefore, Did God predestine King David's behavior, sin, deeds to violate six of the Ten Commandments — God's own words?

NET Bible Quotes Below regarding this matter for reference:

2 Samuel 11:1-3, “In the spring of the year, at the time when kings normally conduct wars, David sent out Joab with his officers and the entire Israelite army. They defeated the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David stayed behind in Jerusalem. 11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of his palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. Now this woman was very attractive. 11:3 So David sent someone to inquire about the woman. The messenger said, “Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?”

2 Samuel 11:14-17, “In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 11:15 In the letter he wrote: “Station Uriah in the thick of the battle and then withdraw from him so he will be cut down and killed.” 11:16 So as Joab kept watch on the city, he stationed Uriah at the place where he knew the best enemy soldiers were. 11:17 When the men of the city came out and fought with Joab, some of David's soldiers fell in battle. Uriah the Hittite also died.”

2 Samuel 12:7-13, “Nathan said to David, “You are that man! This is what the Lord God of Israel says: 'I chose you to be king over Israel and I rescued you from the hand of Saul. 12:8 I gave you your master's house, and put your master's wives into your arms. I also gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all that somehow seems insignificant, I would have given you so much more as well! 12:9 Why have you shown contempt for the word of the Lord by doing evil in my sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and you have taken his wife as your own! You have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 12:10 So now the sword will never depart from your house. For you have despised me by taking the wife of Uriah the Hittite as your own!' 12:11 This is what the Lord says: 'I am about to bring disaster on you from inside your own household! Right before your eyes I will take your wives and hand them over to your companion. He will have sexual relations with your wives in broad daylight! 12:12 Although you have acted in secret, I will do this thing before all Israel, and in broad daylight.'” 12:13 Then David exclaimed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord!” Nathan replied to David, “Yes, and the Lord has forgiven your sin. You are not going to die. 12:14 Nonetheless, because you have treated the Lord with such contempt in this matter, the son who has been born to you will certainly die.”

Deuteronomy 5:6-20, “[1]You must not have any other gods besides me.

5:8 [2]You must not make for yourself an image of anything in heaven above, on earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5:9 You must not worship or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. I punish the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons for the sin of the fathers who reject me, 5:10 but I show covenant faithfulness to the thousands who choose me and keep my commandments. ++

5:11-[3] You must not make use of the name of the Lord your God for worthless purposes, for the Lord will not exonerate anyone who abuses his name that way.

5:12-[4] Be careful to observe the Sabbath day just as the Lord your God has commanded you. 5:13 You are to work and do all your tasks in six days, 5:14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. On that day you must not do any work, you, your son, your daughter, your male slave, your female slave, your ox, your donkey, any other animal, or the foreigner who lives with you, so that your male and female slaves, like yourself, may have rest. 5:15 Recall that you were slaves in the land of Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there by strength and power. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

5:16-[5] Honor your father and your mother just as the Lord your God has commanded you to do, so that your days may be extended and that it may go well with you in the land that he is about to give you.

5:17-[6] You must not murder.

5:18-[7] You must not commit adultery.

5:19-[8] You must not steal.

5:20-[9] You must not offer false testimony against another.

5:21-[10] You must not desire another man's wife, nor should you crave his house, his field, his male and female servants, his ox, his donkey, or anything else he owns.”
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puritan lad wrote:B.W.

The order of the verbs matters not. The point is that they were appointed. I'm still waiting for a single verse that says that they had the ability of their own free will to believe. I've only given a dozen or so that says otherwise.

PL

Regarding further - Acts 13:48 and the use of grammar involved in translating from one foreign language into another:

One difficulty involved in translating a foreign language into one's own native language is for the translator to decide when it is really necessary to reconstruct grammar usage due to the grammatical nuances that foreign languages use. This reconstruction is performed to help a reader or hearer understand the translation better in one's own words.

For example a foreign language may follow this word order after a verbatim translation: Street out played the dog soon. A translator would have to reconstruct this for clarity as: The dog soon played out [on the] street. As you can see, there are certain reasons to clarify meanings involved translating when it is deemed absolutely necessary.

In the Greek Text of Acts 13:48, it is not absolutely necessary to change the location of the word translated “Believe” and place it at the end of the sentence. This changes the original language word order and changes the textual meaning. A translator can follow the original language used in Acts 13:48 as it poses no difficulties in translation. There is no concert reason to change the word order in this text. I do not know why the word order was changed.

So why was the word order changed if the placement of verbs matters not? Anyone know?

Or verb I say should placement necessary a really?
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Acts 2:23-41

Regarding Acts 2:23 you must note Acts 2:31. God's predetermined counsel and foreknowledge involves Jesus Christ and the work of salvation as the gospel message proclaims. Being able to do this requires great wisdom and skill to carry out, much of which is beyond the scope of the human mind to fully comprehend this great mystery.

How God brought this all about is through working through the free acts of men which in turn fulfill certain requirements lawfully under Old Testament law. Jesus never broke God's law, not even on the cross did he! God did not violate his own laws either. Humanity violated God's law both written and unwritten. In doing so, the true author of sin was exposed, convicted, and dethroned, as it is stated in 1 John 3:8.

God has the ability to carry out his predetermined counsel and foreknowledge concerning redemption because He is God. That was what I brought out before in my response to your objections of my position: which my postulation is that God fashions people to find a reward according their ways.

To down play the importance that God's inherent nature has that mysterious ability to know everything and foresee everything is an insult to God himself! What is the reason for this downplay and that outright hostility against God foreknowing everything that many determinist, but not all, hold? Is it based on the false assumptive reason that this somehow gives 'human free will' power over God, making God a slave to human choices?

If so - How can this be if God foresees and foreknows all things? God knows that without his divine intervention, all humanity will be lost and only be good as vessels for His wrath. So God out of his love sends his Word, calling out to all humanity, his plan of redemption and by his call he seeks those foreknown to believe and separating those foreknown that will not believe.

God demonstrates his fairness, justice, righteousness, holiness, mercy, grace and all that he is in this offer, this call, according to his methods. The Lord can craft such a thing together in such a manner that absolves him of being the author of sin, unjust to the creature, as well as expose/convict sin's author, and cure the wages of sin - Acts 2:31-33 - because he is the one that initiated and asks for a response from all so he can rightly judge.

I can hear the determinist shout! “Unjust to the creature- Blasphemy! God is sovereign Lord!” The only blasphemy is to your doctrine, not God as it is written: “[God] The Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice; a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is He.” Deuteronomy 32:4 - JPS and again, “Yea, surely God will not do wickedly; neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.” Job 34:10-12 - KJV

Let's get back on topic. An example that shows that because solely due to God calling out to all, his call has all the effects I cited above can be found in Acts 2:36-41. For example, Acts 2:36 states clearly that people crucified Christ. The gospel message cut the hearts of those that heard.

Acts 2:37-38, here we see how God confronts humanity with a choice that cuts straight through the heart. Now note Acts 2:39, “as many as the Lord will call, invite, summon,” are in reference to the manner and methods God employs calling to all as it is written: Matthew 22:1-14, Luke 14:16-24, John 3:15-21, John 3:36, John 6:37-51, John 6:61-71, Romans 1:16, Romans 3:22-26, Romans 5:8-11, Romans 10:9-17.For a determinist to read these cited passages, it seems to me that they cannot comprehend the light of God's calling at all, but only see an arbitrary selection done without any forethought by God. When God draws — he calls those that will believe out from those that do not. There is a difference mysteriously profound in this.

The Holy Spirit energizes God's call that engages and awakens people that they now have a choice whereas beforehand we had none, John 16:7-16. God's grace, conviction, judgment, and mercy proclaimed! God can draw all manner of humanity to himself. He tests the heart. He selects on the basis of foreknowing all the results that his call has on a person's heart; thus, he can shape and fashion the clay without injustice.

Without God's foreknowing all things, how can he select judicially, righteously, justly, fairly — far be it for God to do wickedly. God will not pervert Justice. The Lord God is a God of truth and without injustice. God fashions people to find a reward according their ways, Job 34:11

Don't agree? Read further; Acts 2:41, “those who gladly received his word…” Those who gladly received are the 'as many as' described in verse 39. Which suggest what? Yes, God foreknew who would truly believe from amongst the entire crowd that heard the Apostle Peter speak. God fashions people to find a reward according their ways.

Point is this: God spoke and offered His call to all that were present, not to a specific few, but to all, even knowing who would reject him — God called all. The choice was made known to all and yet how each responds leaves the result, or sin, as the hearers own — or to attain the salvation offered by God as it is written in 1 Corinthians 1:21-25.

Without God and God's call none could ever be justified, glorified — saved! It remains God's work and not man's free will as the call belongs to God alone. In fact, God violates man's free will with this very call, cutting to through to the heart of the hearer, testing, proving, refining, purifying by offering a choice, when beforehand, there was none.

Is it any wonder the bible proclaimed, “Choose this day whom you will serve.” Yes, God fashions people to find a reward according their ways, Job 34:11.
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B. W. wrote:I have given you many (verses that says that they had the ability of their own free will to believe) - Acts 13:48 is one that does - How can you justify changing the Greek word order for Believe when there is no concert reason for doing so?

Act 13:48

(ASV) And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

(Bishops) And when the Gentiles hearde this, they were glad, and glorified the worde of the Lorde, and as many as were ordayned to eternall lyfe, beleued.

(ESV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

(Geneva) And when the Gentiles heard it, they were glad, and glorified the woorde of the Lorde: and as many as were ordeined vnto eternall life, beleeued.

(KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

(Murdock) And when the Gentiles heard [this], they rejoiced and glorified God. And those believed, who were appointed to life eternal.

(Tyndale) The getyls hearde and were glad and glorified the worde of ye Lorde and beleved: eve as many as were ordeyned vnto eternall lyfe.

(Webster) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.

(WycliffeNT) And hethen men herden, `and ioieden, and glorifieden the word of the Lord; and bileueden, as manye as weren bifore ordeyned to euerlastinge lijf.

(YLT) And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe--as many as were appointed to life age-during;

(NIV) When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

(NASB) When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

(NLT) When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were appointed to eternal life became believers.

(NKJV) Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

It doesn't matter B.W. You can say, "as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed", or you can say (literally) "did believe, as many as were appointed to eternal life". It says the same thing. What it does not say is "they chose to beleive, and therefore they were appointed to eternal life". That is what you want it to say. It just doesn't.

B. W. wrote:Note that 5021 - 'tetagmenoi' is not spelled “tasso” which is how the actual Greek word is spelled to denote 'appoint-ordain.' Rather it is spelled in the Perfect Participle Passive and the Predicate Nominative of Greek and thus: 'tetagmenoi' instead of 'tasso.' There is a difference in spelling. This difference also clarifies the meaning of this word used as more in the sense of enrolled or inscribe.

Correction. 5021 is "tasso", and it means exactly what it says in the english, as ALL Bible translators have agreed to. It also agree with the 6 dozen or so other Scriptures I've already listed.

You are entitled to your opinion, but please do not rewrite the Bible to support it.

B. W. wrote:Did God predestine King David break six of the Ten Commandments in order to use the wicked in the manner you described?

B.W.,

Let's try again, as you still have not answered the question. You're trying to dodge it.

Did God do Absalom's incest openly before all Israel? God says He did (2 Samuel 12:11-12). What say ye?