Evidence for God from Science

DRDS wrote:Say Bippy, I've got another question, by any chance have you ever heard of the "Veil of Veronica"? It's apparently a head cloth with somewhat distorted image of Christ on it. I don't really know much about it since I just found out about it earlier today. Here is a link to what it looks like.



The main reason why I was wanting to ask you about it is I saw on youtube recently that some people (I guess they are atheists) are claiming that this was some sort of middle ages photo development technology that only a few people knew about. And that the same people and technology that was used to make that also helped make the shroud. Let me know what you take is on this. Thank you for your time Bippy, God bless.

NO prob DRDS God bless you also, and keep up the detective work


DRDS, Yea I heard of the veil of Veronica. If atheists are now resorting to comparing the veil of Veronica to the shroud of turin all i have say is...... HEHEHEHEHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE:shakehead:

Plus they arent even sure that this is the original veil of veronic . I heard that there are quite a few veils of veronica.

First of all the image on the veil has none of the unique qualities that the shroud has. It has no 3d spatial information, no xray information, its as different as night is from day. If athiests are getting this desperate they must be at the end of their rope
They must love pain and embarressment

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n50part1.pdf


Rome, Italy. Jesuit professor claims 'discovery' of theRome, Italy. Jesuit professor claims 'discovery' of the
VeronicaVeronica

In June Fr. Heinrich Pfeiffer, SJ, professor of Christian Art History at Rome's highly-
respected Gregorian University, held a press conference in which he claimed to have
'rediscovered' the Veil of Veronica at the Abbey of Manoppello. The story quickly
created headlines around the world.

In actuality Fr. Pfeiffer has been making the same claim for a very long while at
Shroud conferences, and it has gathered little fresh substance over the years. The
issue is a complicated one because while photographs exist of the Manoppello veil, a
transparent piece of cloth measuring 16 x 24 centimetres, and bearing a face of Jesus,
there is no photograph in the public domain of the cloth that is officially purported to
be the original Veronica, preserved in St. Peter's and which only a handful of living
individuals have ever seen at close range.

Historically it is very doubtful indeed that there ever was a woman called Veronica
who rushed forward to wipe Jesus's face as he toiled toward Calvary, as runs the
'traditional' version of the tale. The story does not appear in the gospels. No 'Veronica'
relic as such can be historically traced earlier than the 11th century. For Fr. Pfeiffer to
claim the Manoppello cloth to date back to the 1st century is therefore very poorly

founded indeed.


The more interesting question is whether the Manoppello cloth is the same as the
cloth which, whatever its origins, was regularly exhibited as the Veronica during the
Middle Ages. We know that this was kept in the old St.Peter's. Then when this
building was demolished to make way for the present edifice, the official record is
that it was moved to its present home in the Veronica chapel in St. Peter's, Rome, high
up inside one of the four great piers that support the dome of St.Peter's.

The Pfeiffer version, contradicting this, is that the Veronica disappeared during the
changeover, and that a soldier's wife, who had acquired it, sold it to a Manoppello
nobleman to get her husband out of jail. Shortly after it was bestowed upon the
Capuchin monks of Manoppello, in the Apennine Mountains, who in 1618 had it
framed in gilded walnut between two sheets of glass.

Strongly against Pfeiffer's theory is that the Manoppello face has every semblance of
having been painted by an artist in a style suggestive of the late 15th to16th centuries. It
has nothing of the Shroud's style-less, outline-less, photographic character.
Furthermore Rome's continued possession of a cloth certainly still purported to be the
original Veronica is well-documented. In the year 1617 the artistically-inclined papal
secretary Piero Strozzi made six 'facsimile' copies from this original Veronica, one of
which copies was presented to Queen Constance of Poland. This latter can still be
seen in the Schatzkammer (Treasury) of the Hofburg Palace in Vienna. It, and not the
Manoppello cloth, corresponds to the more reliable depictions of showings of the
Veronica dating from before the destruction of old St.Peter's.

Thank you so much Bippy for that! That had me worried there for a bit. But as always, thank you for your time and God bless.

DRDS wrote:Thank you so much Bippy for that! That had me worried there for a bit. But as always, thank you for your time and God bless.

Be not afraid my friend, it's really the atheists that are afraid because they seem to be sinking lower and lower in the depths of their desperation . They are so stubborn that they won't allow themselves to even read the peer reviewed research because it would do some serious damage to their rediculous worldview.

Hey DRDS, may I put you in my daily prayer list if it's ok with u?
Let me know buddy
God bless you and keep up the excellent research:)

Also guys, they took my mom off the breathing apparatus completely .
She's still in a semi coma but this is very good news:)
Please keep her in your prayers:)
Thank you and may the holy spirit always be with you all

. Someone kept trying to throw the AB blood in my face and how it couldn't have been Jesus but a medieval forgery

Now I don't know what exactly would be the proper response to that. I'm not sure if AB blood did exist then or not. However, it still isn't a strong argument.

1. Blood degrades to AB from what I read.

2. AB is higher in Jews and more prevalent in the middle east. Very rare in europeans. M

The Silver Bullet to this question

Sudarium of Oviedo completely invalidates the question. It has type blood AB and is well documented and dates back to at the very least the 7th century. I guess this to now is a medieval forgery


IMO, I think the Sudarium is the greatest piece of evidence for the Shrouds authenticity.

Swimmy wrote:. Someone kept trying to throw the AB blood in my face and how it couldn't have been Jesus but a medieval forgery

Now I don't know what exactly would be the proper response to that. I'm not sure if AB blood did exist then or not. However, it still isn't a strong argument.

1. Blood degrades to AB from what I read.

2. AB is higher in Jews and more prevalent in the middle east. Very rare in europeans. M

The Silver Bullet to this question

Sudarium of Oviedo completely invalidates the question. It has type blood AB and is well documented and dates back to at the very least the 7th century. I guess this to now is a medieval forgery


IMO, I think the Sudarium is the greatest piece of evidence for the Shrouds authenticity.

Swimmy nice finds, and that is why I keep stressing that the leg work must also be done on the sudarium.
As far as whether there was type AB blood then this link should help

http://www.solutionstohealth.com.au/use ... B_diet.pdf

Also Swimmy the claim that all ancient blood degrades to AB is false and I proved it by pointing out that king tut and his brothers blood were both found to be type A2. This is why my post on Stephen Jones blog was also talked about on Dan Porters blog, as it crushes yet another objection by skeptics.
Also remember that king tuts tomb is at least 1000 years older then Jesus, and from what I read on Dan Porters blog the claim that ancient blood degrades to AB has more than it's share of critics among experts in that field.

Swimmy nice finds, and that is why I keep stressing that the leg work must also be done on the sudarium.
As far as whether there was type AB blood then this link should help

http://www.solutionstohealth.com.au/use ... B_diet.pdf

Also Swimmy the claim that all ancient blood degrades to AB is false and I proved it by pointing out that king tut and his brothers blood were both found to be type A2. This is why my post on Stephen Jones blog was also talked about on Dan Porters blog, as it crushes yet another objection by skeptics.
Also remember that king tuts tomb is at least 1000 years older then Jesus, and from what I read on Dan Porters blog the claim that ancient blood degrades to AB has more than it's share of critics among experts in that field.

I'm a little confused. Does ancient blood still degrade to AB but not all the time?

Also what exactly is the significance of the bloody type of the mummy? I think I'm missing it. It proves that blood doesn't always degrade?


But how does that help the shroud if blood AB didn't appear until afters Jesus's death. Though I can't say for sure this is true.

bippy123 wrote:

DRDS wrote:Thank you so much Bippy for that! That had me worried there for a bit. But as always, thank you for your time and God bless.

Be not afraid my friend, it's really the atheists that are afraid because they seem to be sinking lower and lower in the depths of their desperation . They are so stubborn that they won't allow themselves to even read the peer reviewed research because it would do some serious damage to their rediculous worldview.

Hey DRDS, may I put you in my daily prayer list if it's ok with u?
Let me know buddy
God bless you and keep up the excellent research:)

Also guys, they took my mom off the breathing apparatus completely .
She's still in a semi coma but this is very good news:)
Please keep her in your prayers:)
Thank you and may the holy spirit always be with you all

Yes indeed Bippy, it would be a great honor to be on your daily prayer list! And I will start keeping you in my prayers as well. Thank you so much Bippy, God bless.

Swim the link I provided showed that type AB blood was around during the time of Jesus. I was always wondering why I didn't see much about this in shroud.com and this is probably because they allready knew that type AB blood was present during and probably before Jesus's time.

When scientists found type AB blood on the shroud and sudarium, the argument that used to be brought up by skeptics was that it wasn't signifigant because all ancient blood degrades to AB so they say it was hard to determine the original blood type on the 2 relics, but this is only a theory and I believe that most experts in this field don't agree, and the king tut find showed that even after more than 3000 years tut and his brothers blood stayed type A2.

Now the noose is even tighter around the neck of the skeptics and most serious skeptics won't use this argument anymore.
The chances of both the shroud and sudarium having type AB blood is very slim.

Remember also that the Jerusalem area pollens found on shroud and sudarium match, and not only that buy they were clumped pollen. When I first debated this with a skeptic online he would always respond by saying that pollen can blow from anywhere on earth and land on the relics, it wasn't until I researched it and found that forensic experts understood it but pollen that was airborne never clumped on any object they landed on, but clumped pollen meant that the flowers came into direct contact with the body of Jesus in that tomb.
When I found this info the skeptic said it still didn't matter and suddenly went offline and never returned loool.

Also remember that they found a microscopic dirt particles from an extremely rare limestone that was found only in the tombs in the Jerusalem area. Are the skeptics trying to tell us that a forger is going to travel to the tombs of Jerusalem, sprinkle the rare microscopic limestone on the shroud that scientists couldn't detect until 600 years later?????? Lol

Common sense says it rediculous to even think that he would, but when it comes to common sense with the shroud, skeptics and atheists lose it completely. The evidence on the shroud and sudarium point to only one being and that's Jesus. Recently there are a few skeptic books that came out admitting that this is indeed the shroud that wrapped around the body of the historical Jesus, but again they try to give a natural way that this image formed, the problem is that a newbie on the shroud will read these books and automatically believe them.

They know that they are deceiving people but like the pharoah of Egypt they keep their hearts hardened against the Lord.

DRDS wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

DRDS wrote:Thank you so much Bippy for that! That had me worried there for a bit. But as always, thank you for your time and God bless.

Be not afraid my friend, it's really the atheists that are afraid because they seem to be sinking lower and lower in the depths of their desperation . They are so stubborn that they won't allow themselves to even read the peer reviewed research because it would do some serious damage to their rediculous worldview.

Hey DRDS, may I put you in my daily prayer list if it's ok with u?
Let me know buddy
God bless you and keep up the excellent research:)

Also guys, they took my mom off the breathing apparatus completely .
She's still in a semi coma but this is very good news:)
Please keep her in your prayers:)
Thank you and may the holy spirit always be with you all

Yes indeed Bippy, it would be a great honor to be on your daily prayer list! And I will start keeping you in my prayers as well. Thank you so much Bippy, God bless.

DRDS, thank you so much for your prayers, and the honor is all mine. If only others shared the fervor of your faith we would be living in a much better world. The fact that there are still people like you out there gives me hope for the next generation of Christians.
God bless buddy

bippy123 wrote:

DRDS wrote:Thank you so much Bippy for that! That had me worried there for a bit. But as always, thank you for your time and God bless.

Be not afraid my friend, it's really the atheists that are afraid because they seem to be sinking lower and lower in the depths of their desperation . They are so stubborn that they won't allow themselves to even read the peer reviewed research because it would do some serious damage to their rediculous worldview.

Hey DRDS, may I put you in my daily prayer list if it's ok with u?
Let me know buddy
God bless you and keep up the excellent research:)

Also guys, they took my mom off the breathing apparatus completely .
She's still in a semi coma but this is very good news:)
Please keep her in your prayers:)
Thank you and may the holy spirit always be with you all

May Our Lord keep you and your family, May He strengthen you and yours with His love and Grace that is never ending.

bippy123 wrote:Swim the link I provided showed that type AB blood was around during the time of Jesus. I was always wondering why I didn't see much about this in shroud.com and this is probably because they allready knew that type AB blood was present during and probably before Jesus's time.

When scientists found type AB blood on the shroud and sudarium, the argument that used to be brought up by skeptics was that it wasn't signifigant because all ancient blood degrades to AB so they say it was hard to determine the original blood type on the 2 relics, but this is only a theory and I believe that most experts in this field don't agree, and the king tut find showed that even after more than 3000 years tut and his brothers blood stayed type A2.

Now the noose is even tighter around the neck of the skeptics and most serious skeptics won't use this argument anymore.
The chances of both the shroud and sudarium having type AB blood is very slim.

Remember also that the Jerusalem area pollens found on shroud and sudarium match, and not only that buy they were clumped pollen. When I first debated this with a skeptic online he would always respond by saying that pollen can blow from anywhere on earth and land on the relics, it wasn't until I researched it and found that forensic experts understood it but pollen that was airborne never clumped on any object they landed on, but clumped pollen meant that the flowers came into direct contact with the body of Jesus in that tomb.
When I found this info the skeptic said it still didn't matter and suddenly went offline and never returned loool.

Also remember that they found a microscopic dirt particles from an extremely rare limestone that was found only in the tombs in the Jerusalem area. Are the skeptics trying to tell us that a forger is going to travel to the tombs of Jerusalem, sprinkle the rare microscopic limestone on the shroud that scientists couldn't detect until 600 years later?????? Lol

Common sense says it rediculous to even think that he would, but when it comes to common sense with the shroud, skeptics and atheists lose it completely. The evidence on the shroud and sudarium point to only one being and that's Jesus. Recently there are a few skeptic books that came out admitting that this is indeed the shroud that wrapped around the body of the historical Jesus, but again they try to give a natural way that this image formed, the problem is that a newbie on the shroud will read these books and automatically believe them.

They know that they are deceiving people but like the pharoah of Egypt they keep their hearts hardened against the Lord.

Interesting. But I can't find anything solid. I know the link you provide says it dates back to 2000 years ago. Though I don't know if that's reliable or where that fact comes from.I don't think the whole AB thing is strong argument for skeptics. However, I can't really find anything conclusive on when blood AB first came about. Most things seem to date it after Jesus. While a few others say 2000 to 2500 years ago.

PaulSacramento wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

DRDS wrote:Thank you so much Bippy for that! That had me worried there for a bit. But as always, thank you for your time and God bless.

Be not afraid my friend, it's really the atheists that are afraid because they seem to be sinking lower and lower in the depths of their desperation . They are so stubborn that they won't allow themselves to even read the peer reviewed research because it would do some serious damage to their rediculous worldview.

Hey DRDS, may I put you in my daily prayer list if it's ok with u?
Let me know buddy
God bless you and keep up the excellent research:)

Also guys, they took my mom off the breathing apparatus completely .
She's still in a semi coma but this is very good news:)
Please keep her in your prayers:)
Thank you and may the holy spirit always be with you all

May Our Lord keep you and your family, May He strengthen you and yours with His love and Grace that is never ending.

Thank you soooo much Paul, may the grace our lord and savior always be with you and your loved one also:)
God bless

Swimmy wrote:

bippy123 wrote:Swim the link I provided showed that type AB blood was around during the time of Jesus. I was always wondering why I didn't see much about this in shroud.com and this is probably because they allready knew that type AB blood was present during and probably before Jesus's time.

When scientists found type AB blood on the shroud and sudarium, the argument that used to be brought up by skeptics was that it wasn't signifigant because all ancient blood degrades to AB so they say it was hard to determine the original blood type on the 2 relics, but this is only a theory and I believe that most experts in this field don't agree, and the king tut find showed that even after more than 3000 years tut and his brothers blood stayed type A2.

Now the noose is even tighter around the neck of the skeptics and most serious skeptics won't use this argument anymore.
The chances of both the shroud and sudarium having type AB blood is very slim.

Remember also that the Jerusalem area pollens found on shroud and sudarium match, and not only that buy they were clumped pollen. When I first debated this with a skeptic online he would always respond by saying that pollen can blow from anywhere on earth and land on the relics, it wasn't until I researched it and found that forensic experts understood it but pollen that was airborne never clumped on any object they landed on, but clumped pollen meant that the flowers came into direct contact with the body of Jesus in that tomb.
When I found this info the skeptic said it still didn't matter and suddenly went offline and never returned loool.

Also remember that they found a microscopic dirt particles from an extremely rare limestone that was found only in the tombs in the Jerusalem area. Are the skeptics trying to tell us that a forger is going to travel to the tombs of Jerusalem, sprinkle the rare microscopic limestone on the shroud that scientists couldn't detect until 600 years later?????? Lol

Common sense says it rediculous to even think that he would, but when it comes to common sense with the shroud, skeptics and atheists lose it completely. The evidence on the shroud and sudarium point to only one being and that's Jesus. Recently there are a few skeptic books that came out admitting that this is indeed the shroud that wrapped around the body of the historical Jesus, but again they try to give a natural way that this image formed, the problem is that a newbie on the shroud will read these books and automatically believe them.

They know that they are deceiving people but like the pharoah of Egypt they keep their hearts hardened against the Lord.

Interesting. But I can't find anything solid. I know the link you provide says it dates back to 2000 years ago. Though I don't know if that's reliable or where that fact comes from.I don't think the whole AB thing is strong argument for skeptics. However, I can't really find anything conclusive on when blood AB first came about. Most things seem to date it after Jesus. While a few others say 2000 to 2500 years ago.

Swimmy I like the fact that your pushing this particular subject (type AB blood) so hard and it looks like we have uncovered another gem here. I think Both Dan Porter and Stephen Jones would be interested in this info I just found that shows from archeological digs of ancient mummies that type AB blood was here as far back as 5000 years ago .
The study was done to show that ancient Peruvian mummies were connected to ancient Phoenicians . The Phoenicians are part of the Hebrew group of people, I should know because Phoenicians are my ancestors and probably the ancestors of Byblos as well, and they found Phoenician writings in certain areas of Peru which shows that the ancient Phoenicians (also known throughout the ancient world as great sea travelers must have also travelled to Peru in ancient times.

What's also important is that they found the A and B (both) in some ancient Egyptian mummies.

I found another research article that says that you can find out the blood types of ancient blood types, I'll post this in the next message if I can find the link again lol.
You know sad it makes me feel to prove the shroud skeptics wrong
Good work Swimmy

Oops forgot to post the info lol, oops got too excited
http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Nazca/Nazca3.htm


'In one series of tests by William C & Lyall G Boyd (circa 1930's) 300 mummies of both American and Egyptian origin were subjected to blood grouping tests, by the absorption-technique. In several samples a specific absorptive power indicated the presence of A and B. Such results were obtained with certain Basket Maker and Peruvian mummies, and in particular, among the Egyptians, A and B seem to be present in certain predynastic mummies more than 5,000 years old'. 

Swimmy here is the info I also promised you. This info might not be known to some if the major shroud blogs so it could be picked up there soon. It talks about how a team of experts showed that long after ancient blood disintegrates down that there will still be some minute antigens left

Another skeptic bites the dust lol

Blood group analysis has been used to solve a case of mistaken identity involving an individual over 3300 years old. In 1969, a team led by R. C. Connolly of Liverpool University was asked to help identify a mummy in the Museum of Antiquities in Cairo.

In previous studies of the blood groups of Egyptian and South American a mummy, Connolly’s researchers had found that, long after red blood cells have disintegrated, minute quality of antigens remain intact and other body tissues and can be identified.

http://healthmad.com/women/blood-tests-for-a-mummy/

One wonders if we can use blood to date the body/sample...