Evidence for God from Science

@whynot


You asked why some Christians believe we are morally superior.

Well you could look at this

-Largest contributor to poor, homeless, 3rd world countries, and others in need.
-Missions in African nations which are in midst of civil war with thousands dieing of aids and starving daily
-Orphanages, hospitals, schools, churches, all built by Christians in these 3rd world countries.
-Largest contributor to voluntary community work

-Need I go on?

The fact is that Christians believe that to honor and glorify our god, we should do good works to spread his name, even if that means risking our lives. You do not see Richard Dawkins foundation hospitals in Nigeria do you? No, the reason for that being is that atheist see starving Africans as blobs of chemical goo and not as children of god.

Whynot asked:

if God is able to divinely inspire/reveal his central truths to some men...why not just do so for all men? Why play favorites?

That is a very good question. Jesus answers it in Matt 13:10-17 (NKJV)

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:


‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.



Sometimes the easiest way to get a message across to someone is through a parable; an allegory. Jesus does make a comment in the New Testament that if people didn't understand the parable of the sower, they would not understand any parable.

What is a mystery? It is something that is unknown. The answer may be in plain sight, but if you cannot put all the details together, and take all the clues and give an understanding to them, you do not know. There are things dealing with the kingdom of heaven that seem of pure idiocy to humankind, and will always remain hidden, unless the Spirit of God reveals them.


God doesn't play favorites. I would rather not go into a deeper study for that deserves to be placed in another topic, for many books being printed and there has been much robust discussion between Christians and non believers for centuries, but it involves those of free will, those who have been predestined because of something they earned and those who have been spiritually blinded for their own protection.

Byblos wrote:

Whynot wrote:

Byblos wrote:No one's personal morality has the power to stop it but what does that have to do with anything? We're not talking about what one ought or ought not do in the face of evil, we're talking about whether or not an atheist can even claim that evil exists without God.

Ummm...no, that's not what I'm discussing. That may be the topic you wish to derail this thread to discuss but I find that to be rather unethical and rude as a christian behavior, since it was a fellow christian who started this thread.

And here come the ad homonims. Since you brought up the original topic, let me quote it for you in its entirety:

derrick09 wrote:Hello, another general question I have about atheists and this can be for atheists to respond to or for Christians who have a lot of experience in dealing with atheists. How do atheists expect themselves or others to find meaning and purpose in life when meaning and purpose are eliminated when you take God out of the equation? From what I've researched thus far, atheists either flat out say there is no meaning in life, or they tell you to just make up your own meaning and purpose. But since the former is miserable and the latter is foolish, how do atheists expect human beings to fill that purpose and meaning void that God used to fill (or in my personal view, should fill)? My only guess is for neuroscientists to find out what specific area or chemical in the brain produces these desire and either find a way to eliminate them or to find a chemical or mechanism to fulfill that desire. Let me know what you all think. Thanks and God bless.

Do you see the bolded and underlined part Whynot? The subject is CLEARLY how atheists find meaning and purpose WHEN THEY TAKE GOD OUT OF THE EQUATION. Who now is being unethical and rude? Who now is attempting to derail the thread by changing the subject? I'll expect an apology from you.

Still waiting ...

But I guess I'll be waiting for a long time. Evidently you don't subscribe to admitting being wrong or good manners either.

B. W. wrote:

whynot wrote:Then it's your position that atheists are unable to look forward and plan for tomorrow? The only thing taken out of the equation of meaning and purpose sans God is whatever meaning and purpose each believer believes he/she has derived from their god belief...and that is all. Each of us will still behave according to the previous axioms I've already articulated, unless we engage in behaviors that mitigate against our own existence or have no desire to improve our lives. Since most sinners turn to God for salvation, which is defined as becoming a new creature, in so doing admit to the lack of value derived from their old sin nature, so being a new creature must necessarily be an improvement to their lives, thereby belying the desire to find a life they can live with.

Or you can embrace the fairytale of angels wings...without a shred of evidence...harshly judge everyone who, for whatever reason, does not subscribe to your fantasy, and go through life pretending you're all that moral, when in reality you can't even contain the urge to exhibit sarcasm, in spite of all these claims to a moral and ethical advantage. You would think a mod would lead by example. There's really nothing in my previous response that warrants a sarcastic knee jerk reaction. If you don't wish to entertain conflicting positions then shut down this site and go bury your head back in the sand.

The fact that I can and do care, without a god belief, remains uncontestable. You don't have the ability to "believe" those facts out of existence.

La La La - Live for today...

whynot: I do...and tomorrow...and every continuous day thereafter.

BW: So what if you care about tomorrow...and every continuous day thereafter what makes that morally superior when moral superiority does not count one iota? When you die you die – that’s it...

whynot: I don't make any claims to moral superiority. I was initially responding to a question about purpose and reason.

BW: How can you judge what behaviors mitigate against our own existence and the behaviors that produce no desire to improve one’s life – what standard do you use? Selfishness? Is that your standard?

whynot: I only judge behaviors based on how they affect my purpose and reason. If I observe someone commiting an act of violence against another I experience moral outrage based on the understanding that could be me on the recieving end of that violence, and if this persons behavior isn't checked, it might very well be me next. So I guess it's a combination of selfishness, (the good kind that compels one to want to preserve one's own life), fear and compassion/empathy for the victims of bad behavior.

BW: If one thinks it is morally superior to steal every penny you have – are not they meeting your criteria for bettering one’s life? After all, such robbing and plundering of you does indeed improve the robber’s life. There is no right or wrong, is there?

whynot: Yes, they are meeting the criteria of the axioms in regards purpose and reason, but not morality. I have stated several times that preservation and improvement of ones life is not the only standard of human behavior. But the axioms themselves, do not dictate or prescribe any moral value to any behavior directly. As I've said on numerous occasions, they are merely "descriptive" statements that account for human purpose and reason. If you want to assign value to any given behavior motivated under the auspices of these axioms, that requires additional fleshing. I do not know why that is so difficult to comprehend? Yet the majority of the responses in this thread, have attempted to refute them indirectly via moral challenges or ignored them altogether as though I made moral claims in response to purpose/reason queries. Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued. Is that morally reprehensible?

BW: When you die – you die – that’s it – who cares as long as a person does desire to improve one’s life through whatever means possible as that does not mitigate against their own existence!

But wait, after you die – you cease to exist and if you cease to exist, then you claim that anything that mitigates against our own existence is wrong, then would not the concept of the afterlife that atheist have be wrong then – it does mitigate against one’s own existence – does it not??

whynot: The axioms are not based on assumptions. The axioms are based on the observations of human behavior. Since I've never observed any human behavior from a corpse, it is illogical to expect an axiom, based on observed human behavior, to derive any purpose or reason from the un-observable.

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If you cease to exist, then that most certainly fits your axiom that stated ‘anything that mitigates against our own existence is wrong’ therefore you are in contradiction of your own atheistic axiom and the truth you hold is not truth, is it?

Next, you stated…

whynot wrote: Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued. Is that morally reprehensible?

What standard are you using to make this objective statement?

Then say

whynot wrote: Since I've never observed any human behavior from a corpse, it is illogical to expect an axiom, based on observed human behavior, to derive any purpose or reason from the un-observable

Then all the effort of the axioms implied that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued, really has no value when one becomes a corpse…

Again…

whynot wrote: Or you can embrace the fairytale of angels wings...without a shred of evidence...harshly judge everyone who, for whatever reason, does not subscribe to your fantasy, and go through life pretending you're all that moral, when in reality you can't even contain the urge to exhibit sarcasm, in spite of all these claims to a moral and ethical advantage. You would think a mod would lead by example. There's really nothing in my previous response that warrants a sarcastic knee jerk reaction. If you don't wish to entertain conflicting positions then shut down this site and go bury your head back in the sand.

Do Christians hold a gun to your head, force you to go to church? Come on, what do we do that makes the militant atheist tell Christians we can’t pray, we can’t worship, we can’t help our fellow man better their lot in life, that tell all that we believe in fairy tales, then do things to take our religious liberties away. Who is doing what to whom here????

Then you have the gall to state, “Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued.”

...Unless one is a Christian, right? What harm have we done to you? What is our crime that justifies taking away the Christian axiom that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued. Why is that sooo morally reprehensible to militant atheist who seek to force us to believe as they, punish us, void our rights (in most cases for monetary gain by means of suing thru the courts)?

Whynot – you cannot live according to your own standards – that is what Objective Morals do, prove that we are all guilty of violating any moral standards. It exposes what sin is. No one is forcing you to believe in God, no one is forcing you to go to church; no one is threatening to take away your rights thru illegal State action to sanction prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The Gospel Gestapo does not exist, nor is it following you.

Yet it is the militant atheist, which comes on a Christian forum and tells us in many differing way what your words reflect…

whynot wrote: If you don't wish to entertain conflicting positions then shut down this site and go bury your head back in the sand.

Does not this show a true desire to silence belief in God, forcing all to conform to atheistic belief really a violation of what you said…

whynot wrote: Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued.

What threat are Christians who know and espouse the sanctity of life and seek the betterment of life towards an improved life now and an eternal everlasting life later on to atheist?

Do our values threaten you? Christian values do not violate the axioms that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued. We respect your decision to accept Christ or reject him, freely. Militant atheist values fall far short of this. How - as evidence by militant atheist who seek to destroy our faith, to actually force, coherence, all people to believe only one way – atheistic.

Christian cannot force you, nor can we make you do anything, we cannot, and never will, sue you in court for not believing. All we can do is simply seek to persuade and let you FREELY go whatever direction you desire. You, as a militant atheist DO NOT GRANT Christians the same luxury – it is conform, or be scorned: forsake God or we’ll take it all from you…

How then is the atheistic axiom ethic that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued; really be true when you have no respect towards those who pose no threat to you at all? Who is violating that standard?

I once was like you, a militant atheist, thinking religion a great evil, that the greatest good was to squash it cold. Sure, I was justified and could cite all atrocities committed by every religion ever was to grant myself justification as the moral right thing to do, silence Christianity. Yet, I never objectively looked at what Christians really believed or really did in a honest unbiased tangible manner – never really read the bible – just wanted its pages used as toilet paper.

Are you guilty of making a moral war on a people who actually wish you no harm, nor force you to believe nor seek to take away your rights as do Militant Muslims…Why can't you live up to your own standards quoted below?

whynot wrote: Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued.

Is that morally reprehensible of you as evidenced by your own words citing

whynot wrote: If you don't wish to entertain conflicting positions then shut down this site and go bury your head back in the sand.

You really do not comprehend the logic used – to show your own hypocrisy? Do you?

Again Christians cannot force you, nor can we force you to believe but the atheist maxim does seek to force… Whose head is really in the sand?
I was actually addressing all militant atheist, not you but you answered nevertheless...

You cannot say:

whynot wrote: Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued or this.... anything that mitigates against our own existence is wrong’

And not see that there are Objective Moral Standards in play here and that your own words just quoted are morally objective statements? Would you like to address this further or stop?

There is one problem here – How human beings then twist its meaning to justify the use of force to shut up the rights of people who seek you no Harm. Objective Morals expose how human beings twist objective morals into subjective morality. A subjective morality that seeks to force thru social, societal, and political means to conform to their standard – Atheism or else…

Jesus Christ taught and sent something tangible to those who come to know him instructing us that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued (which we call sanctification). So much so - he granted human beings a choice and respects that choice too!

And the militant atheist wants to take that away from us… hmmm

I do not think you really understand what Christianity is or really is about…

...or what objective morals are and how they work...exposing sin within and our need for a Savior
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Great post BW.

Or you can embrace the fairytale of angels wings...without a shred of evidence...harshly judge everyone who, for whatever reason, does not subscribe to your fantasy, and go through life pretending you're all that moral, when in reality you can't even contain the urge to exhibit sarcasm, in spite of all these claims to a moral and ethical advantage.

What is this but a harsh judgment and insult?

Look at what was written...

whynot wrote: "Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued" or this....

whynot wrote: ...anything that mitigates against our own existence is wrong

And then write

whynot wrote: Or you can embrace the fairytale of angels wings...without a shred of evidence...harshly judge everyone who, for whatever reason, does not subscribe to your fantasy, and go through life pretending you're all that moral, when in reality you can't even contain the urge to exhibit sarcasm, in spite of all these claims to a moral and ethical advantage

Are you not therefore mitigating against Christian existence and are wrong?
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Correct me if i am wrong but - Whynot, can't you see that proclaiming yourself to be an Atheist is equivilant to proclaiming yourself to be as worthless as a rock? And isn't this completely contrary to your statement " Yes, the axioms do imply that human life is a value to be preserved and life improvement is a value to be pursued"

God bless!

It isn't Christians who have had a hard time over the ages with justifying morality, human worth and value, or allowing people to choose their own beliefs (freedom). Its been atheists, time and time again. I prefer the honest ones (Nietzche) over the less honest ones (Dawkins) any day... they admit the flaws. Atheism, when looked at objectively, should be the most terrifying belief system in the world, because it presupposes that all belief systems and those that hold them are, in the end, destined for eternal death in eternal darkness. It makes hell sound like a nice place to go in comparison...

If you want to place some value of meaning or purpose on any human action, just know that with atheistic presuppositions, you have to admit that for a finite number of years, that action will have an impact, and for an infinite number, it will not have any. Maybe with this in mind you can see why I find it hard for atheists to claim 'objective' anything, especially morality, purpose, and meaning.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:It isn't Christians who have had a hard time over the ages with justifying morality, human worth and value, or allowing people to choose their own beliefs (freedom). Its been atheists, time and time again. I prefer the honest ones (Nietzche) over the less honest ones (Dawkins) any day... they admit the flaws. Atheism, when looked at objectively, should be the most terrifying belief system in the world, because it presupposes that all belief systems and those that hold them are, in the end, destined for eternal death in eternal darkness. It makes hell sound like a nice place to go in comparison...

If you want to place some value of meaning or purpose on any human action, just know that with atheistic presuppositions, you have to admit that for a finite number of years, that action will have an impact, and for an infinite number, it will not have any. Maybe with this in mind you can see why I find it hard for atheists to claim 'objective' anything, especially morality, purpose, and meaning.

It's a whole lot worse with our new friend here. He wants to ascribe purpose and meaning to his axioms but don't anyone dare say that implies objective morality because he knows full well where this implication leads. Like I said many times, live by the code and deny the code setter. A very disingenuous, dishonest position. We have other atheist members on this site who will tell you flat out there is no such thing as objective anything, to the point of denying objective truths such as 1 + 1 = 2. I have a lot of respect for them for at least they are being internally consistent with their position.

Katabole wrote:Whynot asked:

if God is able to divinely inspire/reveal his central truths to some men...why not just do so for all men? Why play favorites?

That is a very good question. Jesus answers it in Matt 13:10-17 (NKJV)

And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:


‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.



Sometimes the easiest way to get a message across to someone is through a parable; an allegory. Jesus does make a comment in the New Testament that if people didn't understand the parable of the sower, they would not understand any parable.

What is a mystery? It is something that is unknown. The answer may be in plain sight, but if you cannot put all the details together, and take all the clues and give an understanding to them, you do not know. There are things dealing with the kingdom of heaven that seem of pure idiocy to humankind, and will always remain hidden, unless the Spirit of God reveals them.


God doesn't play favorites. I would rather not go into a deeper study for that deserves to be placed in another topic, for many books being printed and there has been much robust discussion between Christians and non believers for centuries, but it involves those of free will, those who have been predestined because of something they earned and those who have been spiritually blinded for their own protection.

whynot: Greetings Katabole,
Thank you for the effort you put into this response. Unlike some folks around here, who want respect but don't offer any to their guests in return if those guests hold different beliefs than them, you have at least made a sincere effort to respond to my question...something that has always puzzled me about religion and gods; something I find counter-intuitive to the purpose of evangelizing. Surely a god, with the attributes associated with the christian god, could speak to me directly if he truly desired I obey him...yes? I fail to see how this would in any way violate my freedom to choose. He needn't do anything more than speak to me directly and tell me what he wants of me. I can still decide whether to comply or not. I can only say it wasn't atheists who were flying those jets into the WTC, and it isn't atheists who are calling for a holy jihad against all infidels...including christians...so these tirades and outbursts about militant atheism seems a bit foolish to me...and just confirms my reasons for not believing words spoken by men claiming such a god exists and belief in him changes ones life. When I'm subjected to such disrespect from people who claim to be christians I can only surmise either they are not what they claim or christianity is a hoax and does not really change people for the better. I do look for opportunities to improve my existence and I don't have any desire to harm anyone or deprive anyone of their right to believe whatever they please. I cannot help it if I was born in an age when scepticism abounds. Since this god has never made any effort to speak to me then I must assume, if he really exists, I am not wanted. But, after having conscientiously seeking the truth in this matter...for many years...I am left with nothing to guide me but my rational mind and reason. I have studied the bible and the koran from cover to cover...including the maps...and still I see nothing but words written by men. Some of the passages are beautifully written and others tell powerful moving stories and still others offer valuable insights into human nature, psychology and behavior...but nothing therein that would represent anything more or less than that which any intelligent person couldn't have created of their own volition. So it boils down to a choice of whether to just simply believe...or not. And I tried to do just that. In fact, I believed so firmly that I became an evangelist and minister for ten years of my life. But I still never heard from God personally. I had many well intentioned people tell me what they claimed to have heard from god on my behalf. Yet god, himself never gave me any guidance on what I should do or embrace as a minstry in his kingdom. I held on as long as I could...and then some. Eventually I grew weary of trying to find my way in such silence. I preached and preached and won many converts. I preached in prisons to both men and women. I guided many churches in outreach ministries. I taught and prayed and visited and worked and raised a family and were I still a believer I would say God blessed me mightily...but I can only say it was by my own efforts that I have come as far as I have. All I ever wanted was for god to speak to me directly. Not through circumstances that required interpretation. Not through words on paper or other people....but directly. All the invisible things of god, if they exist, remain just that...invisible and transparent to me. I am not here as a seeker or a destroyer. I saw a reasonable question and made an effort at a reasonable response. Perhaps I've over stayed my welcome so this will be my final response. I wish every man and women good fortune, long and healthy life and house full of children. Who knows, maybe someday your god, if he exists, will speak to me too.

You've gotten respect. Don't turn this into a personality war please.

That is some interesting testimony.

In fact, I believed so firmly that I became an evangelist and minister for ten years of my life. But I still never heard from God personally.

In your preaching did you cover the reason why mankind is separated from God on this earth?

As one who has had a personal encounter I can testify that the encounter did not answer these questions. I still had doubts. More on that in a moment.

I can only surmise either they are not what they claim or christianity is a hoax and does not really change people for the better.

False dilema. A jerk and an a-hole can still be a Christian. What changes for a believer is their eternal standing with God. This can and should result in those changes you seek. I lost my temper today. In fact, in a worldly way I had every justifiable reason. But I fell short of God's glorious standard in doing so. In fact I didn't meet your standard of "Christian."

Since this god has never made any effort to speak to me then I must assume, if he really exists, I am not wanted.

As you asked me in another thread, have you considered a third option?

I am left with nothing to guide me but my rational mind and reason.

Now wait, I thought you said God has never made any effort to speak to you?
Here you are. You exist. You are self-aware. And you are able to use reason and logic to understand and ask why do I exist. And you know logic and reason exist yet you can't prove they exist. What physical evidence do you have that reason exists? If anything your statement tells me that you have misrepresented the silence of God.

and still I see nothing but words written by men.

As an evangelist how much study did you give to the prophetic writings? Be detailed please.

So it boils down to a choice of whether to just simply believe...or not.

Actually that is really only part of it. In fact I'd say that's easy. There is ample evidence that Jesus did rise from the dead. Ample evidence that the scriptures are reliable and testify prophetically of this. The real choice is what does it mean to you? Read my signature.

Regarding my own experience, I can assure you that I did not seek out an experience. That dog won't hunt.

whynot wrote:Unlike some folks around here, who want respect but don't offer any to their guests in return if those guests hold different beliefs than them, you have at least made a sincere effort to respond to my question...

You are a liar sir.

Contrary to what some of you are saying, whynot did provide meaning and purpose for Atheists. The thing is though, I don't think he realizes what this implies. whynot is saying that for morals you need complementary things, that is - his axioms are not meant to explain them. What could these things be though? In Christianity, there is God Himself as a moral standard. In atheism - what? Really, the consistent beliefs for atheists are those of Neitzshe; but those imply there really is no objective truth. As some scientist quoted on this website said, "the picture we have painted is not pretty". He wasn't referring to this issue, but it works here too. I think the reason people can still be good is that, whether or not they believe in God, they were created "in His image", that is, God gave them the ability to understand good and evil. Gradually as people keep rejecting God, people will most likely realize the implications of atheism. If religion vanished completely, over generations morals would degrade and eventually cease to exist at all as a specific concept. Or people will be so horrified by these "implications" they will again turn to religion.