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Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:42 pm
by Butterfly
RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
When I was a Christian I too ask the tough questions of the HS, and the answers I got is what ultimately lead me out of Christianity. It seems you were lead one way and I was lead another. When I opened my eyes and saw the ugly truth that the Bible contained I realize I could no longer believe in its God.
Rose, are you saying that the Holy Spirit showed you that The god of the bible is not the true God? That's confusing me. Because before, you said that when you were a Christian, you believed Jesus was God. So, Jesus is God, but the Jesus in the bible is not God? Is that what you're saying. Which Jesus is God? I'm confused. y:-/
Sorry, I guess I worded it wrong which makes it sound confusing. :crying: What I meant to say was that while I was a Christian I believed the HS was guiding me in my quest for truth; consequently when I felt lead to search out an answer or read a book I thought God was guiding me. One of the first books I felt lead to read was called Thank God for Evolution by Michael Dowd, which quickly started me on the path to learn the facts about evolution. Bit by bit my new found knowledge awoke in me a sense of discovery which opened my mind to view the Bible from an entirely different perspective. Anyway, that is what I meant when I said the answers I got is what began the journey that would lead me out of Christianity. Hope that clarifies things. :D

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Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:45 pm
by Spock
PaulSacramento wrote: As for the "question of morality" of the creator wiping out His creation, WHO on Earth is qualified to answer much less judge THAT ??
If humans cannot judge anything about God, the we can not judge that the things he did are either good or evil.

If we can't judge God we have no warrant to say he is good.

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:45 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Rose what exactly are you hoping to learn or accomplish here?

Its seems clear that you have made your mind up about how you view the Bible, if your intention is to persuade someone here that your position is correct then maybe this isn't the place for you.

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:50 pm
by Butterfly
RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
Here is a few verses for starters:

Judges 21:11-12 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

Num.31:15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deut 7:2-3 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

Deuteronomy 2:33 And Yahweh our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Josh 6:20-21 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword.

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith Yahweh of the Armies, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.



I'm not sure where William Lane Craig got his information from in the video, but it sure wasn't from the Bible.

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Rose, have you really looked at the context of all those verses you posted? Honestly? Because, anyone can say God condones genocide, and google "does God condone genocide", and voila! bible verses out of context, to make your case.

Out of the verses you posted above, I only looked at the context of Deuteronomy 2:33, and I found that God was just in commanding them to be killed, because of their sin. I'm guessing that if we look at the context of the rest of the verses, we'll see very sinful people who are getting fair justice. Be honest. I'm starting to think you have an agenda now. I just see you making a claim that God justifies genocide, then you post verses without context. That's not honestly searching, IMO.
Yes, I have looked into the context of those verses that I quoted. I have even written articles on some of them. I know my Bible very well, and have studied it extensively.
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Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:53 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
If humans cannot judge anything about God, the we can not judge that the things he did are either good or evil.

If we can't judge God we have no warrant to say he is good.
We have the Bible which is inspired, we have Jesus which was God in human form, these two things tells us of the nature of God which is everything that is good flows from him.

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:57 pm
by Butterfly
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Rose what exactly are you hoping to learn or accomplish here?

Its seems clear that you have made your mind up about how you view the Bible, if your intention is to persuade someone here that your position is correct then maybe this isn't the place for you.
I wish to persuade no one, only to see if others have experienced the same problems and maybe have come to similar conclusions as me. It seems you don't like having challenging question presented to you. Is that true?
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Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:01 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Butterfly wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Rose what exactly are you hoping to learn or accomplish here?

Its seems clear that you have made your mind up about how you view the Bible, if your intention is to persuade someone here that your position is correct then maybe this isn't the place for you.
I wish to persuade no one, only to see if others have experienced the same problems and maybe have come to similar conclusions as me. It seems you don't like having challenging question presented to you. Is that true?
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No it is quite the opposite, we love a challenge but we have met the challenge and responded with answers that are satisfactory to us but yet the arguments continue, if you find the answers not satisfactory what use is there to continue with the challenge as you have already cemented your position. We have stated ours and you have stated yours, there is a stalemate here and nothing more is able to happen.

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:02 pm
by Spock
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Spock wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:As for the "question of morality" of the creator wiping out His creation, WHO on Earth is qualified to answer much less judge THAT ??
If humans cannot judge anything about God, then we can not judge that the things he did are either good or evil.

If we can't judge God we have no warrant to say he is good.
We have the Bible which is inspired, we have Jesus which was God in human form, these two things tells us of the nature of God which is everything that is good flows from him.
But according to the implied answer to Paul's question, we can't use our reason to make any judgments about the moral qualities of the God of the Bible. Your answer seems to contradict his assertion. Are you saying he is wrong, and that we can make moral judgments about what the Bible says of God?

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:07 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Your answer seems to contradict his assertion. Are you saying he is wrong, and that we can make moral judgments about what the Bible says of God?
No I am saying the nature of God has been revealed through his living word Jesus Christ, we understand Gods nature which is everything that is good, so if we understad that then when we percieve that something he does seems wrong, it cannot be because everything he does is for good, there must be a morally sufficient reason for his actions. Hence making our judgment wrong because of our lack of understanding.

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:06 pm
by RickD
Butterfly wrote:
Yes, I have looked into the context of those verses that I quoted. I have even written articles on some of them. I know my Bible very well, and have studied it extensively.
Do you believe there may be a chance that you could be wrong?

Rose, what specifically do you find wrong in the article I linked? It answers some of your difficult questions. Maybe you could post specific things you're questioning in the article, and we can attempt to work through them. Here's the article again:
God and the Canaanites

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:12 pm
by Butterfly
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Rose what exactly are you hoping to learn or accomplish here?

Its seems clear that you have made your mind up about how you view the Bible, if your intention is to persuade someone here that your position is correct then maybe this isn't the place for you.
I wish to persuade no one, only to see if others have experienced the same problems and maybe have come to similar conclusions as me. It seems you don't like having challenging question presented to you. Is that true?
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No it is quite the opposite, we love a challenge but we have met the challenge and responded with answers that are satisfactory to us but yet the arguments continue, if you find the answers not satisfactory what use is there to continue with the challenge as you have already cemented your position. We have stated ours and you have stated yours, there is a stalemate here and nothing more is able to happen.
It seems like you think you are speaking for everyone here, I think others can speak for themselves...I have noted your position and will no longer converse with you if that is your wish.

I am the type of person that needs to be able to understand through reason and logic why things are the way they are, not merely told by someone like you that because the Bible states something I should believe it.
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Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:31 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
It seems like you think you are speaking for everyone here, I think others can speak for themselves...I have noted your position and will no longer converse with you if that is your wish.

I am the type of person that needs to be able to understand through reason and logic why things are the way they are, not merely told by someone like you that because the Bible states something I should believe it.
I am speaking for myself and generally for others as I feel I know most of them quite well, my arguments are based in reason and logic and to assert that I believe because the Bible says so is extremely insulting. I am ending my talks with you because of your insults and failure to recognise what others are saying, you go on about sexism in the Bible and how wrong it is but at the same time treat others poorly with insults, very contradictory behaviour.

I really hope you rediscover God's love for yourself, may the peace of God transform you from the inside.

Dan

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:43 pm
by Butterfly
RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
Yes, I have looked into the context of those verses that I quoted. I have even written articles on some of them. I know my Bible very well, and have studied it extensively.
Do you believe there may be a chance that you could be wrong?

Rose, what specifically do you find wrong in the article I linked? It answers some of your difficult questions. Maybe you could post specific things you're questioning in the article, and we can attempt to work through them. Here's the article again:
God and the Canaanites
Of course there is always a chance I could be wrong, and I'm sure you feel the same way. I read through the article again and listed out some of the main points I have problems with.

1. Genocide is genocide no matter what the reason for it, or who perpetrated it. A negative connotation is given to the word because it is a negative action. God committed genocide even if you say he was justified, so then that means the standard for God is different. When God commits genocide it's okay because he has a valid reason, when man commits genocide it's an immoral act...PERIOD. If man is unable to have a standard by which he judges morality from immorality, how is he expected to be able to judge good from bad? How do we know God is good? By what standard do we judge him?

2. In using the Hebrew soldiers as instruments of his vengeance, God caused men to commit horrendously immoral acts. It's one thing for God to commit genocide and quite another to command men to do it. What is worse: the Canaanites sacrificing their own children, or the Hebrews slaughtering the Canaanite children?

3. In Rick Wade's final comments, he quotes from Duet. 24:16 where it says "the children shall not be put to death because of the sins of the fathers", but then goes on to justify God's killing of children by saying the Canaanites were a special circumstance because their evilness had continued for so long and was so bad. Did killing all the Canaanite babies put an end to evil? Of coarse not! All through history we have examples of mans atrocious behavior, take for instance the horrendous torture that Christian men inflicted upon women who were accused of being witches. Nothing get worse than that, and it happened thousands of years after the Canaanite affair, so killing all the Canaanites did nothing as far as stopping mans wicked behavior.

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Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:22 pm
by neo-x
Sorry, I guess I worded it wrong which makes it sound confusing. What I meant to say was that while I was a Christian I believed the HS was guiding me in my quest for truth; consequently when I felt lead to search out an answer or read a book I thought God was guiding me. One of the first books I felt lead to read was called Thank God for Evolution by Michael Dowd, which quickly started me on the path to learn the facts about evolution. Bit by bit my new found knowledge awoke in me a sense of discovery which opened my mind to view the Bible from an entirely different perspective. Anyway, that is what I meant when I said the answers I got is what began the journey that would lead me out of Christianity. Hope that clarifies things.
Butterfly, I see the same verses in the O.T that you cite so often, and what fear happens a lot is when we read something harsh or brutal, we place ourselves in the shoes of the victim and decide that it is really an awful thing which is being said. This is also because most of the time we extend our sympathies to people even when they are wrong. Mercy can be expected by any person, a murderer, a rapist, etc etc. So one may feel inclined to be merciful, to be the better person.

My honest opinion is, you never met God, sure you can say I'm wrong and I'll agree, but I don't think you will say that if you are honest. I also think your faith, when you were a christian, was on a book, the Bible, nothing more. The reason I say this, is because the Holy spirit, if he does exist, is God. And if you really knew him than how can you un-know him, that is not possible. How can someone like God exist and then he doesn't? What I feel happened is that you had this feeling. There was no genuine revelation to it. When you realized that there were things that you could not condone or comprehend of this ancient document, you slowly begin to walk out. I know that feeling. I have stood on that ground, where one thinks that he or she has lost it all. But I also realize this is because we have been taught about God in a way which is quite, childish. "If God is on your side, nothing bad can happen to you" and various other thoughts going along the same lines. Most Christians, much like me and you, are taught the Sunday school version of God, even when they should be mature enough to study more.

Without proper guidance, what happened to you is inevitable. Its like a kid who only knows how to ride a bicycle but jumps in to drive a race car, the accident is bound to happen and it happened to you. Please do not take this as an insult, because its not. I am not trying to discredit your theories from what I wrote above.

The bible, without guidance of God is just a book, that's it. People have used it to justify wars, violence, slavery, male-dominance, etc etc. No one is denying that. Even if the pope orders tomorrow that just because God ordered Israel to war that means we can war too, is a wrong use of the Bible. And no matter how many website you read which say otherwise, the truth is, its wrong. Even when the majority claims so, its wrong.

You have trouble understanding God, because you are using the Bible to understand God, which is wrong. You have to understand the Bible by knowing Christ. You have to know God to understand the Bible. And the reason you do not is because you never knew God. You felt like a christian, you behaved like a Christian, you followed the Bible, you went to church but you didn't know Christ and that is why you failed to understand the whole spirit of the message of the Bible.

Am I saying that a non-christian can not understand the Bible, no. I think anyone can understand the Bible, intellectually if they need to. But on a spiritual level, that understanding is dead, because there is no faith to it. And I fear that your disagreement is not intellectual at its core either, it's spiritual. You looked to fill that void, but you failed because you had feeling but no substance and that ultimately led you to your decision to leave the faith. If you had known God you would have asked him, trusted him. There are times when our faith lets us down. But the key is to know that we also are human and we could be dead wrong in our judgement before we make indifinite claims about our spiritual life.

Your statement that "Yah-weh" reflects a male tribal God, is correct, he does because in the O.T that was who he was. Because that is the way the male-dominant society chose to describe him.
That the Bible condones slavery, I will correct you, the O.T does.
That the Bible condones rape, no it does not.
That the Bible condones genocide, no but the O.T does condone killing in war.
That these things are somewhat related to Christian message, No way.

And all of this does not reflect upon the goodness of God, not one bit because I can see why it happened.

Read a secular history of the cannanite nations and their religions and you will find practices such as, human sacrifice, child sacrifice, burning children, and other acts that were highly immoral. This is one of the prime reasons God commanded Israel to wipe them off. The second was war. When Israel was commanded to war against another tribe, it was not that the others were just peaceful citizens waiting to be kicked. Every tribe had warriors and they would fight. So genocide is hardly the right word to describe what happened because the biblical language as Paul said earlier in a post is highly passionate-expression to describe how the events went down. You do not have to assume that what is written happened in totality. And if somewhere it did, it is a rule of exception, nothing else. God commands people but he does not control them, always remember that.

Consider the Book of Chronicles. It was written when Israel came back from the slavery, and the scribes penned down this book and they wanted to show how glorious once there nation was and so they wrote about David and Solomon, the best of kings and the even omitted the sins of these people. They presented them as perfect kings. A sign of divine leadership assigned to them. One reason is obvious enough it was a careful way to remind the new generation of their history but the other reason why they omitted the mistakes of these kings is because they were already written in the book of kings.

When the first five books of the Bible were written, Israel was a new nation. They had a lot of problems, one was that they were surrounded by barbaric tribes and they had to take care of that. Slavery was allowed by God because the other option was simply to kill your captives. And there would be nothing wrong with that in the ANE, since if Israel did not do this, their enemies would. Keep this context when you read the O.T.

Anyway, not to make it longer than it already is, my humble opinion is you need to search, afresh and new. Dispose of any presumptions you have and search new, ask for help, there is plenty of help, scholarship, studies. Its not a one sided case as you make it sound. There are many people on this board who would love to help you, including me.

As I said earlier, today you may have intellectual objections to the Bible, but back then when you left your faith you had spiritual ones and they weren't answered.

Re: Morality Without God?

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:39 pm
by B. W.
Why are you afraid to answer the question? I don't see anywhere where you answered this:
Spock wrote:
B. W. wrote:Greetings Spock question - Do you love your wife?
Yes....
So if you entered your home with appropriate weapon, saw three men justifying their morality brutally assaulting your wife and child, what would you do:

1-Say, sorry guys, don't let me interrupt

2-Say, Here I am - attack me too while I dial 911

3-Or Kill the three men to save your wife and child?
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