Free will and Omniscience

[neo-x]

God bless, Brother Neo, and sorry for the lateness in replying.

thank you for your reply brother, I will take some time in replying, as always you come back in full force as well .

[neo-x]

since we are all going crazy over predestination, here is another one.

If God always knew, he would create us, (and I mean always and alwaaaaayyyyssssss, from start, whatever and before) then, was God predestined to make us? sounds stupid, right?

Yes, but then it kind of limits God's choices too. For those who believe in predestination , God WOULD HAVE TO make us, right? since God himself ALWAYS KNEW.

You can all scratch your heads on it.

(Just kidding)

[Danieltwotwenty]

Yes but God exists in all time and outside time all at once, he does not make choices he just does.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Yes, but then it kind of limits God's choices too. For those who believe in predestination , God WOULD HAVE TO make us, right? since God himself ALWAYS KNEW.

Is it really limiting his character, i dont think so.
Its like that argument can God make somthing so heavy that he can't lift it.... it's not logical so no he wouldn't because it goes against his character.
In the same way God is all knowing and constant knowlage of events is not limiting his character.

[neo-x]

Yes but God exists in all time and outside time all at once, he does not make choices he just does.

Any scriptural proof, bro?

[neo-x]

by Danieltwotwenty on Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:58 pm

Yes, but then it kind of limits God's choices too. For those who believe in predestination , God WOULD HAVE TO make us, right? since God himself ALWAYS KNEW.


Is it really limiting his character, i dont think so.
Its like that argument can God make somthing so heavy that he can't lift it.... it's not logical so no he wouldn't because it goes against his character.
In the same way God is all knowing and constant knowlage of events is not limiting his character.

In the context of predestination most of us are talking about these days, yes it would lead to this. Although I am not sure if all will admit it or go that far. If the lamb of God was slain before the foundations of the earth settled, then we are talking not only about God's choices but also how they Affect us. Please Dan, not talking about Omniscience here. Omniscience is = God knows all. Predestination is = God designed it to happen. You are talking in terms of omniscience, please have a look through predestination. If God set the stage, for the fall, for Christ, for everything. Then he would have to make us, right? to begin the plan.

I don't think that leaves him with much choice but to carry on. Or else predestination is not predestination.

[CeT-To]

Yes but God exists in all time and outside time all at once, he does not make choices he just does.

LOL didn't i just give a couple of posts about God not being outside time

Btw way Neo aren't we talking about this in the other Topic page?

[neo-x]

CeT-To » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:21 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Yes but God exists in all time and outside time all at once, he does not make choices he just does.


LOL didn't i just give a couple of posts about God not being outside time

Btw way Neo aren't we talking about this in the other Topic page?

Yes we are, but...I don't know...it just started.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Any scriptural proof, bro?

Nah just my crazy thoughts at a time of night that i shouldn't be awake.

[neo-x]

Danieltwotwenty » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:31 pm

Any scriptural proof, bro?


Nah just my crazy thoughts at a time of night that i shouldn't be awake.

I thought so...no worries..get some sleep

[RickD]

Guys, I just wanted to share a view of "predestination", that Wesley held. You can contrast it with Calvin's idea of predestination, and decide which, if either, that you believe. One doesn't have to believe in all facets of Arminianism, if one believes in Wesley's view of predestination. The same way, one doesn't have to be a Calvinist, if one believes in something that Calvinism holds to.
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/58/

[DannyM]

Yes but God exists in all time and outside time all at once, he does not make choices he just does.

LOL didn't i just give a couple of posts about God not being outside time

Yes you did, CeT-To, and you haven’t demonstrated that God's being involved in temporal events necessitates Him being bound by time.

God is still everlasting and eternal even if he enters a temporal mode of existence since God would have still have existed from eternity to eternity, everlasting to everlasting. Well hold on God does limit himself in some ways when dealing with creation

But it is not possible for a timeless God to interact with finite timely beings unless you take the view that time is static where all moments in time are present to their subjective standpoint in the time block and God is outside this block of time- yet this view of time is unacceptable for the Christian because then 2000yrs ago Jesus is still on that Cross existing yet in the future he is Still existing but at the right hand of the father. That makes no sense at all.

Too right it makes no sense at all, since the whole thing is just an unproven assumption. Where is the actual argument that shows God cannot be eternal and operate in time? I haven’t seen it. You’re making the assumption that God, who is not restricted to time, must think sequentially along with us in time. But since God knows all things eternally, this does not seem to hold at all.

What would it mean for a timeless God to become spatiotemporal?

it is a logical effect from creation that he also enter into a temporal mode of existence and not be timelessly frozen.

How does it follow that a timeless God is a frozen God? I haven’t seen you demonstrate this.

God can't overthrow our free will or annihilate us, this isn't anything new and this would be a change in your view since before he was not limited or self restrained in this way, unless you take that Malachi 3:6 is talking about his character.

If absolute free will were true, then God could not act in the world, so the above is useless.

Plus Christ is not timeless lol the second person of the trinity entered time to save us by your view ( mine is that God entered into a temporal state since creation)
so even then you can't hold that God is still in his timeless state.

I don’t think so, Bro:

John 1:1:3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus wasn’t created, Bro. Can you tell me what God has created outside of creation?

Lol you should see a logical reason because you can't remain timeless yet act in time - once God would act in time he would shift into a temporal mode where there would be no turning back, even if he destroyed the universe and physical time (as you see it as the only place with time) you can still say " God DID annihilate the universe" or " God DID uphold the universe", time would still be there.

Prove the assertion:

If God is timeless, He is unable to operate in time.

[CeT-To]

Yes but God exists in all time and outside time all at once, he does not make choices he just does.

LOL didn't i just give a couple of posts about God not being outside time

Yes you did, CeT-To, and you haven’t demonstrated that God's being involved in temporal events necessitates Him being bound by time.

God is still everlasting and eternal even if he enters a temporal mode of existence since God would have still have existed from eternity to eternity, everlasting to everlasting. Well hold on God does limit himself in some ways when dealing with creation

But it is not possible for a timeless God to interact with finite timely beings unless you take the view that time is static where all moments in time are present to their subjective standpoint in the time block and God is outside this block of time- yet this view of time is unacceptable for the Christian because then 2000yrs ago Jesus is still on that Cross existing yet in the future he is Still existing but at the right hand of the father. That makes no sense at all.

Too right it makes no sense at all, since the whole thing is just an unproven assumption. Where is the actual argument that shows God cannot be eternal and operate in time? I haven’t seen it. You’re making the assumption that God, who is not restricted to time, must think sequentially along with us in time. But since God knows all things eternally, this does not seem to hold at all.

What would it mean for a timeless God to become spatiotemporal?

What i don't understand from you danny is that you keep talking about this restriction of time - Why is being in time a restriction rather than a liberation in order to act? I gave an explanation in my last post about what would time be like outside the universe.

Lol i'm not sure you understood the paragraph where i was talking about static time - B theory of time. This is exactly why i've been saying why God is in time upon because of the effect of creation.

it is a logical effect from creation that he also enter into a temporal mode of existence and not be timelessly frozen.

How does it follow that a timeless God is a frozen God? I haven’t seen you demonstrate this.

God can't overthrow our free will or annihilate us, this isn't anything new and this would be a change in your view since before he was not limited or self restrained in this way, unless you take that Malachi 3:6 is talking about his character.

If absolute free will were true, then God could not act in the world, so the above is useless.

oh cmon now you aren't reading properly. For the reason that i can't be bothered to debate on free will - it is still the case that for God to annihilate us would be unjust, so the restriction change is still there where before he did not have such a restriction.

Plus Christ is not timeless lol the second person of the trinity entered time to save us by your view ( mine is that God entered into a temporal state since creation)
so even then you can't hold that God is still in his timeless state.

I don’t think so, Bro:

John 1:1:3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus wasn’t created, Bro. Can you tell me what God has created outside of creation?

I never said the Word was created =_=

Lol you should see a logical reason because you can't remain timeless yet act in time - once God would act in time he would shift into a temporal mode where there would be no turning back, even if he destroyed the universe and physical time (as you see it as the only place with time) you can still say " God DID annihilate the universe" or " God DID uphold the universe", time would still be there.

Prove the assertion:

If God is timeless, He is unable to operate in time.

Right i understand now the confusion on both our side of the argument here. Maybe i can make you understand, consider that the universe was indeed the first creation, have you ever asked yourself what was God doing then? well nothing because there was no time, he just was because if God would have done something then at the moment that something would have been done -time begins - like explained in the last post where time would just be allowance for us to use the timely senses like past and present and that's all outside the universe. The reason why God was doing nothing was because it is logically impossible for God to have done an actual number of acts so hence there had to be a start where he first moved and then that's where time started.

[DannyM]

CeT-To, all this talk of "B Theory of Time" means zero to me. It's like reading the convolutions of WLC I know it sounds important, and I may be missing out on something here, but is meaningless to me, Bro.

And why would it be unjust for God to annihilate us? We don't have absolute free will.

The assumption remains from this that God being timeless and in eternity means He was in some kind of a coma. And you still haven’t demonstrated that God's being involved in temporal events entails His being bound by time. Basically just prove God is not timeless.

[CeT-To]

CeT-To, all this talk of "B Theory of Time" means zero to me. It's like reading the convolutions of WLC I know it sounds important, and I may be missing out on something here, but is meaningless to me, Bro.

And why would it be unjust for God to annihilate us? We don't have absolute free will.

The assumption remains from this that God being timeless and in eternity means He was in some kind of a coma. And you still haven’t demonstrated that God's being involved in temporal events entails His being bound by time. Basically just prove God is not timeless.

Danny, man you are being really stubborn you are not even trying to understand

If the B theory of time means nothing to you or whatever - then what's the point of continuing to explain this to you since its an integral part of the explanation as a whole. It would be unjust for God to annihilate us because then we dont get what we deserve. Annihilating someone is robbing them of them of justice that they deserve either good or bad, the gift of life and free will can never be taken away from us. Believe whatever you want of free will we still have enough free will to choose God or not.

God basically was not doing anything until he started doing something, he couldn't have been doing something for eternity because an actual infinite cannot exist, it leads to logical contradictions.

I have shown that if God is now not temporal and yet still able to act in the universe then it logical leads to B theory which is unacceptable for us Christians but i wont bother continuing to explain again since its like you want an answer from me and when i give it you dont even try to understand and just say its nothing.

Anyway i'm done with this.