Evidence for God from Science

Sorry for being late on this... But yes, cheezerrox is right on this.. We respect the Shabbat at all costs.. Why? Well not only is it commanded, but it is also for our own good... And it has never been abrogated. Here are the relevant scriptures...

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 31:16
The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do.

Leviticus 16:31
It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance.

Leviticus 23:32
It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”

Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Nehemiah 10:31
“When the neighboring peoples bring merchandise or grain to sell on the Sabbath, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on any holy day. Every seventh year we will forgo working the land and will cancel all debts.

Nehemiah 13:16-21
People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”

19 When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. 21 But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath.

Leviticus 23:1-4
The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are my appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the Lord, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.
The Sabbath

3 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.

Exodus 16:29
Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.”

Exodus 16:23
He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

Exodus 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. ”

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.

I'm afraid I just haven't seen any convincing Biblical argument for not keeping Shabbat in New Covenant times.

Not to mention there's no historical backing for the idea that Shabbat was abolished or that the day was moved to Sunday by the early church or the Apostles.

Talking about Sylvester, Bishop of Rome (314 CE to 337 CE), it was said,

"He officially changed the title of the first day, calling it the Lord's day."
Historia Ecclesiastica, by M. Ludovicum Lucium, cent. 4, cap.10, pages 739, 740, edition Basilea, 1624

The Council of Laodicea decreed in 364 CE,

"Canon 29. Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honor."
A History of the Councils of the Church, Charles Joseph Hefele, Vol. II, page 316

Socrates, the historian, who wrote in about the mid-400's CE, said,

"Although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this."
Socrates's Ecclesiastical History, book 5, chapter 22

Also see,

"Down even to the fifth century, the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church."
Lyman Coleman's Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chapter 26, sec.2

So I can't see how the "Law" (or at least Shabbat) was preached by the Apostles and early believers as done away with, when they didn't even stop observing it until centuries later.

I'd like to see your opinions on this:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holida ... endum.html

cheezerrox wrote:I'm afraid I just haven't seen any convincing Biblical argument for not keeping Shabbat in New Covenant times.

Not to mention there's no historical backing for the idea that Shabbat was abolished or that the day was moved to Sunday by the early church or the Apostles.

Hi cheezerrox.. My apologies, I thought you were advocating for the sabbath... I think you will find some of your answers at this link..

http://www.gatewaytofreedom.org/teachin ... ctive.html

But yes, you are correct. The New Testestment or B'rit Hadasha is ambiguous when it comes to the Shabbat law... Or really any other law given in the Tanach for that matter..

The B'rit Hadasha however is chuck full of warnings that we are to keep KEEP the commandments given in the Tanach or Old Testament.. 1 John is a prime example of that..

1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

I hope this clears that up...

RickD wrote:I'd like to see your opinions on this:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holida ... endum.html

I like this website, Rick, but I have to disagree with him on this article. I believe he handles Scripture and Torah in particular poorly here, and while I agree that any kind of legalism, whether based on Biblical laws or tradition, is wrong, he kinda throws the baby out with the bath water and negates them, seeing them just as an option for whoever wants to follow them. I disagree with that. Do you want me to go point for point on the article, on why I think so?

Gman wrote:Hi cheezerrox.. My apologies, I thought you were advocating for the sabbath... I think you will find some of your answers at this link..

http://www.gatewaytofreedom.org/teachin ... ctive.html

Actually, my apologies Gman. I must've been unclear in my wording. I AM advocating keeping Shabbat. I was simply saying I haven't seen a convincing Biblical argument for NOT keeping Shabbat anymore. I agree with that link you've posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding, friend.

But yes, you are correct. The New Testestment or B'rit Hadasha is ambiguous when it comes to the Shabbat law... Or really any other law given in the Tanach for that matter..

The B'rit Hadasha however is chuck full of warnings that we are to keep KEEP the commandments given in the Tanach or Old Testament.. 1 John is a prime example of that..

1 John 2:3-7, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

I hope this clears that up...

Indeed, the books of the New Covenant all direct us to obey the commandments G-d's given us, not out of legalism or out of trying to be justified by works, but just out of love for G-d and trying to live up to His standard. As I showed by the quotes I pulled from those historical sources, the early believers KEPT SHABBAT up until the fifth century CE. What does that say to anyone who believes the New Testament does away with the keeping of Torah?

cheezerrox wrote: Actually, my apologies Gman. I must've been unclear in my wording. I AM advocating keeping Shabbat. I was simply saying I haven't seen a convincing Biblical argument for NOT keeping Shabbat anymore. I agree with that link you've posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding, friend.

Ooops again.. Sorry that is part of the problem I have, not reading and understanding beforehand and then jumping in. Yes, I agree with you. I do not see an argument for not keeping the Shabbat either. As far as I'm concerned it's never been abrogated. It has literally taken me years to figure this out. Like Peter wrote...

2 Peter 3:16: He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

That was me... Mr. ignorant.

Indeed, the books of the New Covenant all direct us to obey the commandments G-d's given us, not out of legalism or out of trying to be justified by works, but just out of love for G-d and trying to live up to His standard. As I showed by the quotes I pulled from those historical sources, the early believers KEPT SHABBAT up until the fifth century CE. What does that say to anyone who believes the New Testament does away with the keeping of Torah?

Yes.. We are not justified by doing the Law but rather obey them out of love.. And love for our fellow brothers.. And according to Bible, the Torah is good...

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Shalom from California..

Cheezerrox wrote:
Do you want me to go point for point on the article, on why I think so?

That's up to you.

Do you that obey the sabbath commandment, follow it exactly as it is written? Or, do you get to choose what parts to follow, and not to follow?
In particular, do you hold to the 39 Categories in this link:http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

Gman wrote:Ooops again.. Sorry that is part of the problem I have, not reading and understanding beforehand and then jumping in. Yes, I agree with you. I do not see an argument for not keeping the Shabbat either. As far as I'm concerned it's never been abrogated. It has literally taken me years to figure this out. Like Peter wrote...

2 Peter 3:16: He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

That was me... Mr. ignorant.

No apologies necessary, brother, you did nothing wrong. Just a simple miscommunication, is all.

Yes.. We are not justified by doing the Law but rather obey them out of love.. And love for our fellow brothers.. And according to Bible, the Torah is good...

Romans 7:7, What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Romans 7:12, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

Shalom from California..

Yes indeed, my friend. Shalom from New Jersey!

RickD wrote:That's up to you.

Okay, I'll just mention some specific places where I believe the author of the article is incorrect on his interpretation of Scripture.

First off, his use of Romans 14:5 is innacurate, I believe, as I explained not too many posts before in this thread.

Next, he uses Hebrews 8:13 to support the idea that the Old Covenant (Torah) is no longer supposed to be lived by. This is error in multiple ways. For one, it completely ignores the verb tenses of this verse. It says of the Old Covenant, pepalaiOken, or "he has made old," speaking of Jeremiah referring to it as "old." So, the Torah is already old, but it is not already obsolete or disappeared. 1 Corinthians 2:6 says that, "the rulers of this age...are passing away." The rulers of this age are still with us, just as Torah is still with us. Any theology that includes the abrogation or passing of the Mosaic Covenant in its entirety has to admit that it hasn't disappeared yet.

Not to mention that taking this verse to mean that Torah is no longer relevant is just taking the verse out of context. The context is speaking of the priesthood and the sacrifices (chapters 7-8), and the author's just stating explicitly what Jeremiah implied in his quotation of the prophet from Jeremiah 31. He/she's not criticizing or making a statement about the relevance of the Old Covenant as a whole. The author of Hebrews isn't saying that Shabbat, kashrut, the holy days, and commandments of the Torah are "ready to disappear," as he/she had to be aware that the Mosaic Covenant presents itself as eternal (and so does the rest of the Old Testament; that's unable to be disputed). As I already said, the context has him/her speaking SPECIFICALLY of the priesthood and Temple sacrifices/rituals, not Torah's other aspects, such as the laws and statutes. In fact, the laws concerning the cultus make up the majority of the laws of the Torah, so, it's really not that inaccurate to say that the Old Covenant is "growing old" and is "ready to disappear."

The author of Hebrew's arguments and teachings provide reasons for Messianic Jews and Christians not to be worried about the destruction of the Temple, and teaches how the believers should continue on without it, and why they should do it in this way. This is very similar to the Yavneh Council of 90 CE, which transferred the focus of non-Messianic Judaism from the Temple to the Torah and the rabbinical laws. The message of this book is to focus on the Messiah and what He's done instead of the Temple. The old PRIESTHOOD is what was vanishing, not Torah. Not G-d's Immutable Nature from which the Old Covenant originates from. The priesthood/sacrificial system are the subject of the immediate and general context, and really the whole book. This is what's about to disappear (or rather, "be changed;" Hebrews 7:12). The new priesthood is explained in the next two chapters of the letter.

Next, the author of the article handles the laws of the Torah very poorly when he tries to accuse those who advocate keeping Torah of "just picking and choosing what to follow," which is a common objection, based on misunderstandings of the Torah itself. He tries to use Exodus 21:7 and Leviticus 25:44 to say that those who keep Torah should condone slavery as well, somehow being ignorant of (or simply ignoring) the fact that this applies to the theocratic state of Isra'el, and that Torah (and the NT) say that we assume the laws of the state we live in, as long as they don't keep us from being true to G-d and His Word.

Then he said we should seek the death penalty for homosexuality, rebellious children, Shabbat-breakers, and blasphemers again somehow being ignorant of the fact that laws involving COURTS and GOVENRMENT, including punishments, can only be applied in the theocratic state of Isra'el (and that NO ONE in history has been executed for the law of rebellious children (Deuteronomy 21:18-22; do you see how specific that law is?)).

He says that we can't shake hands with women, because of the law of niddah, menstrual impurity (Leviticus 15:19-24), but this is simply an Orthodox Jewish interpretation of the law. It's impossible to avoid being in a state of uncleaness, and one is clean again come evening after bathing. Whenever you're in public, there's no way of knowing whether the bench or bus seat you sit on was touched by someone during her time of separation. Niddah is a personal matter between a woman, her husband (if she's married), and G-d.

He also says that according to Torah, no one's allowed to leave their home on Shabbat (Exodus 16:29), on penalty of death, ignoring that this was for the specific time when the children of Isra'el were receiving manna from heaven. Note how the verse speaks specifically about the bread that came twice as much on the sixth day, so that no one had to go out on Shabbat. This was not a universal, eternal law. It was meant for that specific time. We all agree Jesus kept Shabbat, and even the legalistic Pharisees were outside their homes during His day (Mark 2:23-28).

Then he goes on to say that those who claim to be Torah observant can't offer the sacrifices, apparently making them unable to be truly Torah true. And yet, Jesus never said that. In fact, he said that the Torah will still be in full effect until heaven and earth pass away, and none of the writers of the New Testament who wrote after the Temple was destoryed say anything about this affecting Torah as a whole. Hebrews, as I said earlier, deals specifically with this issue. He also somehow misses out on the fact that it's unlawful to make sacrifices anywhere except for at the Tent/Temple (Leviticus 1:3, Deuteronomy 12:10-11).

Do you that obey the sabbath commandment, follow it exactly as it is written? Or, do you get to choose what parts to follow, and not to follow?
In particular, do you hold to the 39 Categories in this link:http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

I obey the commandments of Shabbat according to what Scripture says, which means no work, no making/allowing anyone to work, no lighting of a fire, no cooking food, keeping it holy (obviously only way to do that is through making sure to make time to pray, study the Scriptures, spend time with G-d), and, of course, to rest! And that means not getting caught up into legalistic observance of tons of little rabbinical laws, turning the day of rest into something stressful and complicated.

And no, I don't hold to the 39 categories in that link. It's certainly right about some things, such as slaughtering, plowing, and cooking, but there's no Biblical basis for not being allowed to write, erase, or untie something.

cheezerrox... I think we need to understand that some people just never want to take a Sabbath break... You see they would just rather, work, work, work, all the days of their lives.. Now we have to fight for the right just to take one silly day off...

I think we are stuck in 5th gear....

cheezerrox wrote: I obey the commandments of Shabbat according to what Scripture says, which means no work, no making/allowing anyone to work, no lighting of a fire, no cooking food, keeping it holy (obviously only way to do that is through making sure to make time to pray, study the Scriptures, spend time with G-d), and, of course, to rest! And that means not getting caught up into legalistic observance of tons of little rabbinical laws, turning the day of rest into something stressful and complicated.

And no, I don't hold to the 39 categories in that link. It's certainly right about some things, such as slaughtering, plowing, and cooking, but there's no Biblical basis for not being allowed to write, erase, or untie something.

Amen to that... I actually look forward to the Shabbat now once I understood that G-d wanted me to rest for my own good... I welcome it with open arms. Actually I think it is LEGALISTIC to think otherwise... Legalism tells you that you HAVE to work.

Lol, that's often times true, Gman. Many people just don't want to lose a whole day. I understand that. But, as you said in your next post, once you give yourself to Shabbat, you come to find IMMENSE joy in it. I know I do. I look forward to it every week. G-d's Words rings true,

Isaiah 58:13-14
"If because of Shabbat, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My Holy Day,
And call Shabbat a delight, the Holy Day of HaShem honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
Then you will take delight in HaShem,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of HaShem has spoken."

cheezerrox wrote:Lol, that's often times true, Gman. Many people just want to lose a whole day. I understand that. But, as you said in your next post, once you give yourself to Shabbat, you come to find IMMENSE joy in it. I know I do. I look forward to it every week. G-d's Words rings true,

Another amen to that.. I've been doing it for over a year now and I can actually start seeing the benefits of it. I have more energy, I'm much more patient, I sleep better.. Thank you Hashem for giving me my life back..

To heck with that babylonian false mindset work ethic.. It's actually poison...

Hey I was thinking.. If someone doesn't want their Shabbat day could we steal it from them? They don't want it right? I'll take it..

cheezerrox wrote:
I obey the commandments of Shabbat according to what Scripture says, which means no work, no making/allowing anyone to work, no lighting of a fire, no cooking food, keeping it holy (obviously only way to do that is through making sure to make time to pray, study the Scriptures, spend time with G-d), and, of course, to rest! And that means not getting caught up into legalistic observance of tons of little rabbinical laws, turning the day of rest into something stressful and complicated.

Cheezerrox, is it difficult not driving a car, or taking a bus to go anywhere on the Sabbath? I'm sure you know that internal combustion engines make a fire, don't you?

RickD wrote:Cheezerrox, is it difficult not driving a car, or taking a bus to go anywhere on the Sabbath? I'm sure you know that internal combustion engines make a fire, don't you?

Lol, this is the Orthodox Jewish opinion, and Messianic Judaism is filled with different opinions on this. But, I personally don't think driving a car is "kindling a fire," as the commandment says (Exodus 35:3). It's given in the context of prohibiting work, and to interpret it to refer to travelling by car is simply a commandment of man (Colossians 2:20-22). To include it in the prohibition is reading into it.

Besides, starting an internal combustion engine doesn't really start a fire, it makes a spark . The mix of fuel and oxygen is that happens isn't a fire, it's actually a series of explosions. There aren't any similarities between an explosion and a fire except for what you need to make them.

But, I believe taking it that far is getting too technical. Commandments were meant to be a delight, not a burden, and Shabbat itself is supposed to be about rest and fellowship with G-d and man. I believe a good attitude to have in all matters of the Law is that where Torah is clear, be clear, and when disagreements are possible, live an example and pray about it. There's certainly no condemnation (or justification, for that matter) that comes from commandments, and especially not from following them in an erroneous way with the right intentions.