The Law

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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KBCid
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Re: The Law

Post by KBCid »

RickD wrote:The Law
The Law is God's instructions concerning the moral, social, and spiritual behavior of his people found in the first five books of the Bible. The Law is the very reflection of the nature of God because God speaks out of the abundance of what is in him. Therefore, since God is pure, the Law is pure. Since God is holy, the Law is holy. The Law consists of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20), rules for social life (Exodus 21 - 23), and rules for the worship of God (Exodus 25 - 31). It was a covenant of works between God and man, and was (and is) unable to deliver us into eternal fellowship with the Lord because of man's inability to keep it. The Law is a difficult taskmaster because it requires that we maintain a perfect standard of moral behavior. And then when we fail, the Law condemns us to death. We deserve death even if we fail to keep just one point of the law: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all," (James 2:10).
The law made nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19). That is why the Law has shown us our need for Jesus and the free gift we receive through Him (Gal. 3:24).
From carm.org
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Laws that are being refered to in Heb and Gal were those ones which the Jews felt made them perfect. And it was clearly shown that it did not make them perfect because they had to keep making the same offerings over and over and over and over.....
The law itself pointed to Christ because it required the repetitious sacrifices for the same sin continuously which meant the lawfull act of animal sacrifice never actually eliminated the sin.
Believing in Christ is the new commandment that replaces all the old commandments that specified animal sacrifices as a payment for sin and his sacrifice eliminated the need to keep sacrificing. Christ never eliminated the need to observe those commands based on the two royal laws because they are intended to show people how to love both God and man.
We as sinners are not be able of ourselves to follow the intent of the royal laws perfectly which is why we need the indwelling spirit to direct us into all of the proper understandings of their intent. However, once the spirit makes it clear that thou should not steal, then for us to steal after that point would be us knowingly disobeying the intent of Gods laws and the spirit will not remain within those who knowingly disobey once it has been clarified.
When Christ talks about what the intent of the law really means to us here;

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

He hiimself clarified that killing is still wrong and against the commandment of the Father but its intent goes beyond just the physical act. Now we can more correctly understand that even though the physical act is still a sin you would also be guilty of this same commandment based on your very thoughts. If you hate someone in your mind without a cause then you are essentially breaking the intent of the command just as if you had actually performed the physical act.

We as unique beings should strive to be like our maker who knows that without his help we cannot succeed but, he does know the inward thoughts and he knows whether we are trying or not. If we don't make an effort on our part to controll our actions and thoughts why should he help us?

If you see with your eyes that someone is hurt and in need of help do you wait for God to direct you to help them or do you help them because you already understand the intent of Gods word and can perform as he intended that you should?

If you know that God honors a specific day as holy because you can read in his word where he explains why its important to him and you choose of your own free will to not honor it the way he does then isn't this the breaking of the greatest command to love God with all your heart and soul and mind?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The law shown below was based on the one above since all the law hangs on those two.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If we love God then honor what he honors the way he wants us to because we then show our love for him by following it.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
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Re: The Law

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KBCid wrote:
However, once the spirit makes it clear that thou should not steal, then for us to steal after that point would be us knowingly disobeying the intent of Gods laws and the spirit will not remain within those who knowingly disobey once it has been clarified.
Sorry, KBC, you're wrong here. Once one believes on Christ, one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Scripture says The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. The HS is our guarantee that our salvation is assured. Once one has the indwelling HS, He will remain in a believer. God promises a believer that He will never leave us nor forsake us. His promise is not contingent on us. God alone is faithful. He cannot lie, nor break His promises like a human.
KBCid wrote:
We as unique beings should strive to be like our maker who knows that without his help we cannot succeed but, he does know the inward thoughts and he knows whether we are trying or not. If we don't make an effort on our part to controll our actions and thoughts why should he help us?
Because we cannot be like our maker. The law shows us that we are all lawbreakers. God transforms us because of who He is. Not because of what we cannot ever do.
If you know that God honors a specific day as holy because you can read in his word where he explains why its important to him and you choose of your own free will to not honor it the way he does then isn't this the breaking of the greatest command to love God with all your heart and soul and mind?
Romans 14:5 says:One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

It is up to a believer to choose. We have that freedom. My conscience allows me to see every day alike, while another may regard one day as more important than another. We are not to judge another believer in regards to this.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

If we love God then honor what he honors the way he wants us to because we then show our love for him by following it.
Thats fine KBC. Nobody is arguing that if one wants to take a day off work to honor God. The whole point is that it is not required!!!!!!
We as believers honor God as our conscience dictates. We are not to judge other believers on how they hold certain days as more important or not.

I am specifically talking about believers in Christ, KBC. Those wo are not believers, including those who believe in a different jesus, are excluded.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: The Law

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KBCid wrote: However, once the spirit makes it clear that thou should not steal, then for us to steal after that point would be us knowingly disobeying the intent of Gods laws and the spirit will not remain within those who knowingly disobey once it has been clarified.
RickD wrote:Sorry, KBC, you're wrong here. Once one believes on Christ, one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit. Scripture says The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come. The HS is our guarantee that our salvation is assured. Once one has the indwelling HS, He will remain in a believer. God promises a believer that He will never leave us nor forsake us. His promise is not contingent on us. God alone is faithful. He cannot lie, nor break His promises like a human.
It appears to my understanding that you don't fully grasp what it means to repent. According to scripture everyone is required to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. So far your message has been that we only need to believe and we are garanteed to be saved if we believe and we don't need to turn from our sins because we can't stop sining anyway since we are not God.
If this is not the message you are intending to give then this is the point where you can clarify what you do mean before I answer your post further and possibly missrepresent your position. I know how it feels to have people missrepresent a concept I was intending to convey without ever questioning intent or allowing clarification.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other
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Re: The Law

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KBC, first, what scripture are you referring to that says we must first repent, then believe, for salvation?

If by "repent", you mean turn from sin, then it is you who are in error. First, a believer is justified by faith in Jesus Christ. A believer then receives the Holy Spirit, who indwells him. The Holy Spirit, being God, sanctifies a believer. Sanctification is a lifelong process in which God makes a believer more holy. As a believer is sanctified, he will turn from sin. A believer being sanctified by God, will also naturally produce good fruit. Just like a tree produces fruit naturally. The tree doesn't have to work to produce fruit. The Holy Spirit is doing the work in the believer.

To sum it up, one cannot turn from his sin. Only God has the power to transform a believer. That gets back to the whole point of the law vs grace. The law shows us that we are all lawbreakers, and that we cannot keep the law. The law points to our need for Christ. The law is fulfilled in Christ. All OT laws including the sabbath, are fulfilled in Christ. These ceremonies and special days all pointed to Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: The Law

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RickD wrote:KBC, first, what scripture are you referring to that says we must first repent, then believe, for salvation?
I did not say we must repent and then believe.
"According to scripture everyone is required to repent AND believe in Jesus Christ."
RickD wrote:If by "repent", you mean turn from sin, then it is you who are in error.
Define your understanding of what is meant in the new testament by 'Repent'.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other
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Re: The Law

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KBCid wrote:
RickD wrote:KBC, first, what scripture are you referring to that says we must first repent, then believe, for salvation?
I did not say we must repent and then believe.
"According to scripture everyone is required to repent AND believe in Jesus Christ."
RickD wrote:If by "repent", you mean turn from sin, then it is you who are in error.
Define your understanding of what is meant in the new testament by 'Repent'.
KBC, you said:
It appears to my understanding that you don't fully grasp what it means to repent. According to scripture everyone is required to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. So far your message has been that we only need to believe and we are garanteed to be saved if we believe and we don't need to turn from our sins because we can't stop sining anyway since we are not God.
I'm taking this as your meaning of "repent" is to turn from our sins. Is that what you're saying?

That definition of repent is inconsistent with scripture. Biblically, repent means to change one's mind. Here's an article jlay posted. Give it a read if you have time:
http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf Hopefully, the link works for you. I'm having trouble with it opening.

A definition of repent that is consistent with scripture is basically "a change of mind". To repent and believe in Jesus Christ means to change your mind about who Jesus Christ is.

Jlay said it here:
I've met so many different people witnessing. I've met people who knew they were sinners, but didn't know how to be saved. They were totally convinced they were Hell bound, and they were without hope because they knew nothing they could do would buy them out of Hell or balance the scales. They even dismiss the work of Christ. This person needs to repent. They need to change their mind regarding who Jesus was and what He did. Be doing so, they are trusting that the life and work of Jesus is enough. And thus they are saved.
KBC, The fact that one cannot turn from his sins is consistent with scripture. We need the law to show us that we are complete failures at keeping it. And again, the law points to Christ and what He did.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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KBCid
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Re: The Law

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RickD wrote:That definition of repent is inconsistent with scripture. Biblically, repent means to change one's mind. Here's an article jlay posted. Give it a read if you have time: http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf Hopefully, the link works for you. I'm having trouble with it opening.
A definition of repent that is consistent with scripture is basically "a change of mind". To repent and believe in Jesus Christ means to change your mind about who Jesus Christ is.

Jlay said it here: I've met so many different people witnessing. I've met people who knew they were sinners, but didn't know how to be saved. They were totally convinced they were Hell bound, and they were without hope because they knew nothing they could do would buy them out of Hell or balance the scales. They even dismiss the work of Christ. This person needs to repent. They need to change their mind regarding who Jesus was and what He did. Be doing so, they are trusting that the life and work of Jesus is enough. And thus they are saved.

KBC, The fact that one cannot turn from his sins is consistent with scripture. We need the law to show us that we are complete failures at keeping it. And again, the law points to Christ and what He did.
Yay we were able to trim the discussion down to a foundational point. This is the type of interaction payoff I was searching for. Initially I will say that I disagree with you 'instinctually', if you will. But, the information provided will allow me to research more indepth into this foundational point and see another way of interpretation and how that conclusion can be reached. So even if I still come to a differing conclusion I will still be delving into the depths of Gods word. We should both agree this is good.
It is as if some Christians sit there and wait for the smallest thing that they can dispute and then jump onto it...
The Bible says that we were each given an interpretation – this gift of interpretation is not there so we can run each other into the ground. It is there for our MUTUAL edification.
//www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/chri ... each-other
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Re: The Law

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KBC, I think it comes down to if one believes Christ fulfilled the OT law. And if he did fulfill the law, what exactly does that mean.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: The Law

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RickD wrote:KBC, first, what scripture are you referring to that says we must first repent, then believe, for salvation?

If by "repent", you mean turn from sin, then it is you who are in error. First, a believer is justified by faith in Jesus Christ. A believer then receives the Holy Spirit, who indwells him. The Holy Spirit, being God, sanctifies a believer. Sanctification is a lifelong process in which God makes a believer more holy. As a believer is sanctified, he will turn from sin. A believer being sanctified by God, will also naturally produce good fruit. Just like a tree produces fruit naturally. The tree doesn't have to work to produce fruit. The Holy Spirit is doing the work in the believer.

To sum it up, one cannot turn from his sin. Only God has the power to transform a believer. That gets back to the whole point of the law vs grace. The law shows us that we are all lawbreakers, and that we cannot keep the law. The law points to our need for Christ. The law is fulfilled in Christ. All OT laws including the sabbath, are fulfilled in Christ. These ceremonies and special days all pointed to Christ.
Repenting is a good thing to do kiddo.. But do we continue to sin? According to Romans 6:1-2 we still need to stop sinning if we truly love him 1 John 5:3-4. This is the process known as sanctification, it's the process of becoming holy. And the Holy Spirit along with G-d's word will help you renew your mind back to Christ Romans 12:2.

1 Peter 1:13-17, “Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, ‘Be holy, for I am holy.’ And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”

James 1:21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Hebrews 10:26, “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.”

Hebrews 12:14-15, “Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.”
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Law

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Gman wrote:
Repenting is a good thing to do kiddo.. But do we continue to sin? According to Romans 6:1-2 we still need to stop sinning if we truly love him 1 John 5:3-4. This is the process known as sanctification, it's the process of becoming holy. And the Holy Spirit along with G-d's word will help you renew your mind back to Christ Romans 12:2.
Gman, I agree. I think you just reiterated what I said to KBC here:
RickD wrote:
The Holy Spirit, being God, sanctifies a believer. Sanctification is a lifelong process in which God makes a believer more holy. As a believer is sanctified, he will turn from sin. A believer being sanctified by God, will also naturally produce good fruit. Just like a tree produces fruit naturally. The tree doesn't have to work to produce fruit. The Holy Spirit is doing the work in the believer.
Again, to be clear. How does a believer become Holy? By the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, or by the believer following the law? I think KBC is having a difficult time understanding this.
Gman, KBC is trying to understand this as an unbeliever. Since KBC seems to listen to you, maybe you can show him that he has to put his faith in Jesus Christ who is God incarnate. Maybe show KBC that his jesus cannot save.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: The Law

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KBCid wrote:
It appears to my understanding that you don't fully grasp what it means to repent. According to scripture everyone is required to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. So far your message has been that we only need to believe and we are garanteed to be saved if we believe and we don't need to turn from our sins
Then please, be so gracious as to give a detailed definition of the word, repent?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: The Law

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G,
Are you claiming that 1 Peter 1:13-17, James 1:21, Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 12:14-15 are ways to be saved? Are you claiming these are how to follow the law? are you claiming that you are holy because you....(fill in the blank.) Or, are you claiming that following the law is how to renew your mind?

Regarding Romans 6:1-2. The context of this is Paul answering an objection that might arise after reading the preceeding verses.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: The Law

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RickD wrote: Gman, I agree. I think you just reiterated what I said to KBC here:
Ok thanks.. I didn't see that.
RickD wrote:Again, to be clear. How does a believer become Holy? By the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, or by the believer following the law? I think KBC is having a difficult time understanding this.
Gman, KBC is trying to understand this as an unbeliever. Since KBC seems to listen to you, maybe you can show him that he has to put his faith in Jesus Christ who is God incarnate. Maybe show KBC that his jesus cannot save.
I shall try my best.. Simply put, If we believe the word of G-d to be true, it will be evident in our behavior. Obedience to G-d's laws is the product and evidence of our faith. Much of this is beautifully summarized in James..

James 2:17-24, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Which is why James says before....

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

So there you have it... Good works or holiness is the product of our faith.. We must have love and faith in the Holy Spirit (in Christ) BEFORE our works. Otherwise it is nothing..... Therefore works are apart of our faith too.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Law

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jlay wrote:G,
Are you claiming that 1 Peter 1:13-17, James 1:21, Hebrews 10:26, Hebrews 12:14-15 are ways to be saved? Are you claiming these are how to follow the law? are you claiming that you are holy because you....(fill in the blank.) Or, are you claiming that following the law is how to renew your mind?

Regarding Romans 6:1-2. The context of this is Paul answering an objection that might arise after reading the preceeding verses.
I believe I just answered this in Rick's message. If not, let me know.. ;)
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Re: The Law

Post by RickD »

Gman wrote:
Obedience to G-d's laws is the product and evidence of our faith.
G, if what you mean by "G-d's laws" is loving God, and one's neighbor, then I completely 100% agree, and say a big :amen: !!!

But if by "G-d's laws" you mean OT laws like obeying the Jewish Sabbath laws, and abstaining from eating certain foods, then I disagree 100%, and say a big y[-X .
Gman wrote:
So there you have it... Good works or holiness is the product of our faith.. We must have love and faith in the Holy Spirit (in Christ) BEFORE our works. Otherwise it is nothing..... Therefore works are apart of our faith too.
I couldn't agree more!!! y>:D<
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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