Re: Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?
Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:42 am
Paul, I just have had great read on Faraday http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/Faraday/
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Thing is, we can't see what's in an unbeliever's heart and mind, we can only see the surface. But God INTIMATELY knows both!Maybe there's been more going on in the spiritual realm than we know of
That was a great read, thanks1over137 wrote:Paul, I just have had great read on Faraday http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/Faraday/
I tried to but my post was declinedRickD wrote:Stardust,
Please post the link you are quoting. Per forum rules. I attached it to your post.
One thing the article shows is the effect of not understanding why God saved found in John 3:16 - God Loved Humanity but Humanity does not love God. Roman's chapter one and two points this out.Stardust wrote:Either there’s grace, or there isn’t. Either death is defeated, or it isn’t.
If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.
http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/03/18 ... -morality/
Thoughts?
You say humanity nailed jesus to the cross, it's my understanding that jesus was part of gods plan all along, so why plan a saviour, if jesus purpose was to to be a sacrifice all along then why blame humans for carrying it out?B. W. wrote:One thing the article shows is the effect of not understanding why God saved found in John 3:16 - God Loved Humanity but Humanity does not love God. Roman's chapter one and two points this out.Stardust wrote:Either there’s grace, or there isn’t. Either death is defeated, or it isn’t.
If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.
http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/03/18 ... -morality/
Thoughts?
The article's author merely is reacting to Anselm, Augustine, and Calvin's development of Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory and further developed as a one size fits all model for modern evangelism. While it is true that God leaves no stone unturned due his nature of justice, the legal aspect of the cross is there in the bible but there are other stones as well that were not left unturned too.
In Fact John 3:16, 17,18,19,20,21 covers these pretty well. Humanity nailed Jesus to the cross, Humanity spat and put him on Trial, Humanity bore false witness, lied, and plotted Jesus betrayal and death upon the cross. It was Humanity who beat Jesus, mocked him, divided his garments, had him carry an heavy wooded beam he could not bear after the torture he received. If God the Father was in these people doing this to Jesus, then, God sinned by lying, plotting, betraying. No that is not the case. As A W Tozer mentions - it is we - humanity who nailed Jesus on the cross.
In doing so, Jesus exposed sin in humanity and made it manifest in an objective lesson that transcends time and cultures. God's love would do this, go thru this, in order to save those that simply believe in him. If he has your faith, he has your heart and from there love for God is reborn when before there was none but only open hostility. In Dying, Jesus paid the price - a blood price to set us free from what enslaves us and shackles us to our all our sins such as betraying, mocking, beating, plotting, stealing, put on trial others, ourselves, and God. That is the message of the cross. A Great love shown to an unloving lot in order to wake them up in order to save their lives from God's love angered by such vile rejection of so great a love.
The cross is about reconciliation brought forth by the work of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Paying a legal infraction alone simply is only one small part of the big picture and the author of the article misses this completely. In fact, the author in his article displays the same hate and disdain and need to keep putting God on trial in order to kill him from his life and others so much so that it reveals to me great doubt that he was ever really born again to begin with as he lives in this bitter sin still - not free from it.
Yes, it pleased the Father to crush the Son in order to save and impart love for God back into a new heart given to man. It is how he did so and why that baffles so many: that by the Son many will be made righteous - reconciled, forgiven, cleansed. healed, set free. Jesus paid our death penalty in a far deeper sense than mere mortal death. He spared us from God's just wrath of love spurned/angered, and just eternal recompense folks so willingly deny they deserve for all they have done to others, themselves, and God. Please re-read Isaiah 53:1-12 again along with John 3:14-21 and may the holy Spirit enlighten you more on this matter further than I can go here on this forum. There is far to many deep things concerning the cross and resurrection than limiting it to one particular theme. By seeing this deepness of cross, our love grows for God more and more at each gaze because he first loved us...
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So the Marine who tossed himself on a grenade during combat saving his squad sacrifice was in vain too?Stardust wrote:...You say humanity nailed jesus to the cross, it's my understanding that jesus was part of gods plan all along, so why plan a saviour, if jesus purpose was to to be a sacrifice all along then why blame humans for carrying it out?
If this whole thing is gods plan to save humanity from gods wrath why get mad at humans for playing their part in it?
If god is mad at humans then he's mad at himself because he's supposed to be the all powerful one, so why not create things in a way that a sacrifice was never necessary?
God seems either incompetent or impotent to me.
But either humans are not worthy of salvation therefore god is righteous in saying so, or we are worthy and Jesus sacrifice is righteous.
If the Marine were all knowing, all powerful, all wise and pefectly good, he would have prevented the grenade from being tossed towards his squad in the first place; don't cha think?B. W. wrote: So the Marine who tossed himself on a grenade during combat saving his squad sacrifice was in vain too?
IMO if God foreknows that humans will turn from him, he should have made us in a way that we would not want to turn from him; kinda like in Heaven.1over137 wrote:Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?
Incompetent, impotent or evil. Comes to mindKenny wrote:IMO if God foreknows that humans will turn from him, he should have made us in a way that we would not want to turn from him; kinda like in Heaven.1over137 wrote:Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?
Ken
Free will, love, and people that aren't robots comes to mind.Stardust wrote:Incompetent, impotent or evil. Comes to mindKenny wrote:IMO if God foreknows that humans will turn from him, he should have made us in a way that we would not want to turn from him; kinda like in Heaven.1over137 wrote:Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?
Ken