DBowling wrote:Thanks to Rick for pointing me to this thread
Here's our last back and forth for continued discussion...
From the Adam Has To Be Real Thread
abelcainsbrother wrote:DBowling wrote:abelcainsbrother wrote:DBowling wrote:
As you demonstrate above God does both create (bara) and make (asah) things during the six creation 'days'.
The difference between 'bara' and 'asah' does nothing to alleviate the direct contradiction between the Gap Theory sequence of events and the sequence of events given in Scripture in Genesis 1.
The Gap theory asserts that sea and air creatures existed before Genesis 1:2.
In Genesis 1 Scripture explicitly states that God created (bara) sea and air creatures after Genesis 1:2.
The Gap Theory asserts that land creatures existed before Genesis 1:2.
In Genesis 1 Scripture explicitly states that God made (asah) land creatures after Genesis 1:2.
So it doesn't matter what definition or significance you apply to 'bara' and 'asah'. According to Genesis 1, God populated the planet with life (using both bara and asah) after Genesis 1:2.
Which directly contradicts the Gap Theory which asserts that God populated the planet with plant and animal life prior to Genesis 1:2.
In Christ
But How can you say that if God both created and made life it does'nt show that God had already created life before?
Very easily...
There is nothing in the words create (bara) or made (asah) that demands (or even implies) that the item being made or created had been made or created previously.
That is an extrascriptural presumption that is being imposed on the text.
Scripture says that the heavens and earth were both created (bara) and made (asah) by God.
That in no way logically implies that God had created/made the heavens and earth before Genesis 1:1 and then destroyed them and created them again in Genesis 1:1.
In Genesis 1:26-27 human imagebearers of God are both created (bara) and made (asah) by God.
That in no way logically implies that God had previously created/made human imagebearers and then destroyed them all prior to mankind's creation in Genesis 1:26-27.
As we see above, the Gap Theory imposes a number of extraScriptural presumptions upon the Scriptural text. And in the case of Genesis 1, the Gap Theory comes into direct conflict with the Scriptural sequence of events explicitly laid out in Genesis 1.
You have mentioned a number of times that your desire is to submit to the authority of Scripture over the authority of the traditions of men.
I share that desire. Which is why I am compelled to dismiss a human tradition that was invented in the 1800s when it comes into direct conflict with the explicit teaching of Scripture.
In Christ
Are you angry or frustrated? Because if you are I don't wanr to further frustrate you.I want to know that you are OK with discussing this further if not then I don't want to go on. I believe I can show why you are wrong about "bara" and "asah" but I don't want to go on if you are not in the right frame of mind. I'm not frustrated eventhough we disagree about this. I can agree to disagree.
OK... show me where you think I'm wrong about 'bara' and 'asah'...
Here are the definitions of "asah" and "bara"
asah
Phonetic: aw-saw'
BDB Definition:
to do, fashion, accomplish, make
(Qal)
to do, work, make, produce
to do
to work
to deal (with)
to act, act with effect, effect
to make
to make
to produce
to prepare
to make (an offering)
to attend to, put in order
to observe, celebrate
to acquire (property)
to appoint, ordain, institute
to bring about
to use
to spend, pass
(Niphal)
to be done
to be made
to be produced
to be offered
to be observed
to be used
(Pual) to be made
(Piel) to press, squeeze
Bara
baw-raw'
BDB Definition:
to create, shape, form
(Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
of heaven and earth
of individual man
of new conditions and circumstances
of transformations
(Niphal) to be created
of heaven and earth
of birth
of something new
of miracles
(Piel)
to cut down
to cut out
to be fat
(Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
Origin: a primitive root
TWOT entry: 278
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: A primitive root; (absolutely) to create ; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose
These definitions are from Strong's concordance and notice that "asah" is first and "bara" is below. Go ahead and read the definitions enough to remember what they mean.Ifyou do this? I think that you see that "asah" means to do,fashion,produce,make ,to do work on something,form something,to attend to and put in order.
OK now look at "bara" and it means to create something new,new conditions and circumstances,of birth,of something new.
So if we compare definitions I think you'll agree that when we see the word created(bara)anywhere in the OT it means God created and brought into being something new but when we see made "asah" it means to work on something that is not new like with bara,it is God just working on something anytime we see made in the OT.
Now if we have that established now read Genesis 1 keeping the meanings of bara and asah in your mind while you read it.This means in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." it means they are new and it is the sameway everytime you see created in the whole OT.
so let's try it out with Genesis 1:21 :And God CREATED great whales,and every living creature that moveth,which the waters brought forth abundantly,AFTER THEIR KIND,and every winged fowl AFTER HIS KIND:and God saw it was good."
Ok now since the word created is used here this means this is new life the whales and every living creature that moveth,etc and notice after their kind, after their kind means God created these creatures NEW after kinds of life that had already existed before,this is why it says God created them after their kind. They had already lived before and God is creating NEW life based on old life after their kind.
OK but lets go to another place where MADE is used Genesis 1:16 "and God MADE two great lights;the greater light to rule the day,and the lesser light to rule the night:He MADE the stars also."
OK now since asah is here these were things God just did work on so they already existed and are not new,they are already there and God does work on them,to attend to,to put in order. So that we know these were already there and God just did work on them to make them shine again. They were not shining,but they were already there,but not shining,so God does work on them to turn them on.
Now I hope that you will see how it matters to know and understand the difference everytime you see created and every time you see made. They are similar but are never interchangeable like critics often claim.
Now all I can do is give evidence but I cannot change anybody's mind or creation theory,that is up to them but I believe I have showed enough to show that it matters to know the difference. and now read Genesis 2:2-4 again because Moses stresses for us to know the difference in order to interpret not only Genesis 1 and 2 but the whole OT.
If you follow these definitions as you read the OT you're going to interpret it different and the whole point of this is to show that the only thing God did during the 6 days is work on things that had already been created before.He did not create in the 6 days he restored the earth and the heavens by working on them and then he created and made sea creatures,animals and even when it comes to man you still need to keep MADE and created in mind when you read about it. Don't interchange the definitions suddenly when it comes to man in day 6,still hold to the meaning of created and made as you read it.
You'll see that God CREATED man so he was NEW.
