Evidence for God from Science

Morny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:[...] the orthodox and traditional sense of the word religion, atheism certianly isn't one [...]

Correct.

PaulSacramento wrote:[...] BUT that in the modern sense, it may be viewed as [a religion].
Modern sense being:
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

Modern polls about religious affiliation classify atheism as "non-religious".

For the vast majority of atheists, thoughts about the supernatural, e.g., Scientology's thetans, are UNimportant and mostly an occasional source of bewilderment and amusement.

That is only a part of the story morny and this is the proto elm with atheists .
The science of Nde's point in one direction but atheists will always take the other direction , and this is because the supernatural,mthe soul and the afterlife are claims that religion make . To say that this stuff is only a soure of bewilderment and amusement is disingenuous and doesn't even come close to the reality of how almost all atheists respond to these evidences.

Maybe religion isn't a word to use for atheism . Is say CULT is much closer to it .

If you don't believe it just go to the many atheist forums that are online and I guarantee you that almost all of them respond in the exact fashion I have described and the forum that responds in the way you describe is the needle in the haystack.

I have gone on a lot if them so I have seen them.
You can start with the randi forum, then proceed to the infidels forum. Or would you like to try the friendly atheist forum of hemant mehta?

Your post is way out of line with reality morny . If you feel I'm wrong visit the forums and lets see whose correct .
I guarantee you that your post is as far away from the truth as any post could get .

As we see here a teen was without a heart beat for a full 20 minutes . Within 30 seconds of a cardiac arrest the brain isn't functional , yet this teen had an nde and saw Jesus

Teen Whose Heart Stopped for 20 Minutes Says He Saw Jesus

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/05/16/t ... -saw-jesus

A 17-year-old Texas high school student claims he saw Jesus after he collapsed in gym class and was without a heartbeat for 20 minutes.

Zack Clements suffered sudden cardiac arrest at Victory Life Academy on May 5 and was unresponsive. But just as doctors were about to declare him dead after 20 minutes, he revived.

He was airlifted to the hospital and woke up in the intensive care unit days later.

Even more incredible than Zack's recovery is what he said he saw.

"When I was out those 20 minutes, I saw a man who had long ruffled hair and kind of a thick beard, and it didn’t take me long to realize that that was Jesus," Zack said.

"I went up to him and he put his hand on my shoulder and told me everything would be alright."

Zach and his family are saying that they can't explain what happened, but they're calling it a miracle.

Watch more above.

bippy123 wrote:As we see here a teen was without a heart beat for a full 20 minutes . Within 30 seconds of a cardiac arrest the brain isn't functional , yet this teen had an nde and saw Jesus

Teen Whose Heart Stopped for 20 Minutes Says He Saw Jesus

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/05/16/t ... -saw-jesus

A 17-year-old Texas high school student claims he saw Jesus after he collapsed in gym class and was without a heartbeat for 20 minutes.

Zack Clements suffered sudden cardiac arrest at Victory Life Academy on May 5 and was unresponsive. But just as doctors were about to declare him dead after 20 minutes, he revived.

He was airlifted to the hospital and woke up in the intensive care unit days later.

Even more incredible than Zack's recovery is what he said he saw.

"When I was out those 20 minutes, I saw a man who had long ruffled hair and kind of a thick beard, and it didn’t take me long to realize that that was Jesus," Zack said.

"I went up to him and he put his hand on my shoulder and told me everything would be alright."

Zach and his family are saying that they can't explain what happened, but they're calling it a miracle.

Watch more above.

After reading B. W.'s book, I wonder who he really saw.

I would think that a DECEPTIVE NDE would include some false element that the demonic uses to deceive those still in this world. In the NDE above, there's not enough information to discern the truth of the matter.

Also of interest in such accounts, I would think there is one big question: As for ANYONE supposedly seeing Jesus - WHERE does such an encounter take place? Because, unless one is a Christian, that place cannot be Heaven. Is there a corridor or some passageway between death and one's eternal destination (and I'm not speaking of some supposed "purgatory" or such, in which people still have a chance to upgrade their accomodations with a room somewhere next to St. Pete)' but of a passageway? Now, I can see how a non-Christian could temporarily be given a warning, via some God-provided "scared straight"-type of temporary visit/glimpse of where they are currently headed, such as what B.W. describes. Also, was the kid who "saw" Jesus a Christian? And, if not, WHERE did their supposed encounter take place? And does not the "near" in NDE not mean they are still alive, yet only somewhere along that pathway in between - while at the physical point where one' physical life is however temporarily undetectable? And might a portion of that pathway still be on earth?

Philip wrote:I would think that a DECEPTIVE NDE would include some false element that the demonic uses to deceive those still in this world. In the NDE above, there's not enough information to discern the truth of the matter.

Also of interest in such accounts, I would think there is one big question: As for ANYONE supposedly seeing Jesus - WHERE does such an encounter take place? Because, unless one is a Christian, that place cannot be Heaven. Is there a corridor or some passageway between death and one's eternal destination (and I'm not speaking of some supposed "purgatory" or such, in which people still have a chance to upgrade their accomodations with a room somewhere next to St. Pete)' but of a passageway? Now, I can see how a non-Christian could temporarily be given a warning, via some God-provided "scared straight"-type of temporary visit/glimpse of where they are currently headed, such as what B.W. describes. Also, was the kid who "saw" Jesus a Christian? And, if not, WHERE did their supposed encounter take place? And does not the "near" in NDE not mean they are still alive, yet only somewhere along that pathway in between - while at the physical point where one' physical life is however temporarily undetectable? And might a portion of that pathway still be on earth?

Philip, this is why I never use these types of Nde's to prove one religion over another. What they can be used for people that have an anti-supernatural bias . I find once that bias comes down they find coming to God much more reasonable and become open to him.


I call Nde's indirect evidence of God and direct evidence of the supernatural, soul and afterlife .
Even rich deem who owns this forum was a deist before he became a Christian . I'm sure God used that time to help him overcome some stumbling blocks on his way to The Lord.

Bippy: Philip, this is why I never use these types of Nde's to prove one religion over another. What they can be used for people that have an anti-supernatural bias . I find once that bias comes down they find coming to God much more reasonable and become open to him.


I call Nde's indirect evidence of God and direct evidence of the supernatural, soul and afterlife .
Even rich deem who owns this forum was a deist before he became a Christian . I'm sure God used that time to help him overcome some stumbling blocks on his way to The Lord.

Bip, I quite agree! As something clearly is happening to such people when/after all vital measurements of life are pointing to death - especially when this is the case for any considerable amount of time. And, I'm not very knowledgeable about the case histories of NDEs, but anyone who can describe what was going on for considerable time in which they were clinically dead - well, explain THAT!

Philip wrote:

Bippy: Philip, this is why I never use these types of Nde's to prove one religion over another. What they can be used for people that have an anti-supernatural bias . I find once that bias comes down they find coming to God much more reasonable and become open to him.


I call Nde's indirect evidence of God and direct evidence of the supernatural, soul and afterlife .
Even rich deem who owns this forum was a deist before he became a Christian . I'm sure God used that time to help him overcome some stumbling blocks on his way to The Lord.

Bip, I quite agree! As something clearly is happening to such people when/after all vital measurements of life are pointing to death - especially when this is the case for any considerable amount of time. And, I'm not very knowledgeable about the case histories of NDEs, but anyone who can describe what was going on for considerable time in which they were clinically dead - well, explain THAT!

Exactly philip, and this is exactly what these atheist neuroscientists are trying to keep out of the university classroom . This is why I mentioned to Kenny that almost every neuroscientists looks inadequate when debating nde's with even laymen.

Something is happening here that is beyond brain function. The professor churchland interview made my case perfectly.

Philip wrote:

Bippy: Philip, this is why I never use these types of Nde's to prove one religion over another. What they can be used for people that have an anti-supernatural bias . I find once that bias comes down they find coming to God much more reasonable and become open to him.


I call Nde's indirect evidence of God and direct evidence of the supernatural, soul and afterlife .
Even rich deem who owns this forum was a deist before he became a Christian . I'm sure God used that time to help him overcome some stumbling blocks on his way to The Lord.

Bip, I quite agree! As something clearly is happening to such people when/after all vital measurements of life are pointing to death - especially when this is the case for any considerable amount of time. And, I'm not very knowledgeable about the case histories of NDEs, but anyone who can describe what was going on for considerable time in which they were clinically dead - well, explain THAT!

If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?

Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.

The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.

To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on? Do you, do I, does anyone know?

Audie wrote:...If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?

Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.

The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.

To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on?

Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?
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B. W. wrote:

Audie wrote:...If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?

Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.

The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.

To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on?

Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it.As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?
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You are simply making statements of facts not in evidence, non responsive to what I said.

Why bother?

Audie: "Why bother?"

Audie, what if we are RIGHT? What if Jesus LIVES? Because if He lives, we know Scripture is true. And what would such a truth mean for you? Did a crazy, deluded man have such deep wisdom? Did He and His followers (who absolutely knew whether or not they'd seen the risen) bring down an empire (without so much as firing a shot) and so radically change the world? If this has truly happened (Jesus died physically, and physically arose/is STILL alive), and you knew that to be the truth, how would it change you?

Philip wrote:

Audie: "Why bother?"

Audie, what if we are RIGHT? What if Jesus LIVES? Because if He lives, we know Scripture is true. And what would such a truth mean for you? Did a crazy, deluded man have such deep wisdom? Did He and His followers (who absolutely knew whether or not they'd seen the risen) bring down an empire (without so much as firing a shot) and so radically change the world? If this has truly happened (Jesus died physically, and physically arose/is STILL alive), and you knew that to be the truth, how would it change you?

The "why bother" is about why write a response if its not related to what I said?

What if you are right? About what? Your earlier post would still be unresponsive. We'd have to see which of your facts became evidenced.

"Scripture is true"? All of it, every word, and in every interpretation?

Never said "Jesus" was crazy or deluded. Regarding "deep wisdom" what is claimed as his sayings, (verbatim) decades later looks like the folk wisdom of a people. You find the same ideas across many many cultures.

J Smith and the "Prophet" M also have made big changes. Jesus did not "bring down and empire". No more than he built the grand coulee dam.

IF I knew that Jesus was still alive, it wont make the Noahs ark story true. How it would change me, I dunno. It would take some getting used to, but I'd get religion of some sort.

How about you? If you found out the Jesus was just another guy, who got fluffed up a lot and made the focus of something that had little or nothing to do with him personally, then what?

Audie wrote:

Philip wrote:

Audie: "Why bother?"

Audie, what if we are RIGHT? What if Jesus LIVES? Because if He lives, we know Scripture is true. And what would such a truth mean for you? Did a crazy, deluded man have such deep wisdom? Did He and His followers (who absolutely knew whether or not they'd seen the risen) bring down an empire (without so much as firing a shot) and so radically change the world? If this has truly happened (Jesus died physically, and physically arose/is STILL alive), and you knew that to be the truth, how would it change you?

The "why bother" is about why write a response if its not related to what I said?

What if you are right? About what? Your earlier post would still be unresponsive. We'd have to see which of your facts became evidenced.

"Scripture is true"? All of it, every word, and in every interpretation?

Never said "Jesus" was crazy or deluded. Regarding "deep wisdom" what is claimed as his sayings, (verbatim) decades later looks like the folk wisdom of a people. You find the same ideas across many many cultures.

J Smith and the "Prophet" M also have made big changes. Jesus did not "bring down and empire". No more than he built the grand coulee dam.

He did change history though Audi.

[quote+"Audie"]IF I knew that Jesus was still alive, it wont make the Noahs ark story true. How it would change me, I dunno. It would take some getting used to, but I'd get religion of some sort.[/quote]
Why does He have to be "still alive"?

Audie wrote:How about you? If you found out the Jesus was just another guy, who got fluffed up a lot and made the focus of something that had little or nothing to do with him personally, then what?

Fluffed up a lot? Little or nothing to do with Him personally? He rose from the dead, how much more personal do you want it?

Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.

Audie wrote:

B. W. wrote:

Audie wrote:...If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?

Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.

The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.

To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on?

Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it.As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?

You are simply making statements of facts not in evidence, non responsive to what I said.

Why bother?

This is in direct context to what you stated and is on topic...

Your question - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

Was answered based upon the empirical evidence that all human beings will face one day - you will die. You cannot escape it, nor can I. This thread's topic is on the afterlife and what happens after one dies. Therefore my response is certainly on topic. You will find out one day Audie - you will and at that time you will not be able to use verbal or written semantics to wiggle out of the final reality you will face.

So I responded appropriately:

B. W. wrote:One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?

Many years ago, I held similar views as you. Looking back, I could put most Christians in their their place with logic and reason schemes. However I met a few that I could not shake off because their words were penetrating. One such person once hauntingly said to me: One day, you will find out...

Another, a new Christian, who was once an atheist, said to me after walking across an intersection, "Bryan, see this, you are at a crossroads, I am heading right towards life (he was heading to a bible study) and you are going left (I was heading to a party). One day, you'll find yourself at another crossroads, make the right turn, will you..."

He then walked off. He recently converted to Christ and was once one of the biggest atheist and badest dude. We used to hang out together. After he became saved, he witnessed to us and we made fun of his faith but stopped because what he had was real. He was a real believer...not a phony.

I met a few folks who challenged my way of thinking that there was no God, no afterlife, no nothing. Like you, I argued against faith never realizing that I had faith in my self as my personal guiding rule. Never realized that the faith I had in myself violated my own arguments against Christian faith proving faith exist and is indispensable to the human condition. In fact, during that time years ago, my own guiding rules convicted me because I could not even live up to my own standards.

Then on day, I drank bad water, died, and by God's grace alone, I was allowed to return and discovered how true Jesus' statement is: ...neither will they be persuaded though one rise form the dead (Luke 16:31 NKJV)

That does not bother me in the least because I now know Jesus and He knows me.

Therefore, one day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...

Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?

One day, you will find out...

Why wait and delay any longer?
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