Is secularism spreading?

[Kenny]

Guess what the underlined is? A statement defending moral relativism as reality based off of belief and behavior. Again, context.

I disagree with that moral relative statement, that's why I am stating my disagreement. Unless you are a moral relativist, why are you making a statement defending moral relativism?

If you understood this passage you would have read it to say:
'I knew wrong when I found out wrong but didn't know I was doing wrong until I found out it was wrong'.
This passage was a foundational point (during my first post) as to our discussion with morality.
It shows two things. One, right and wrong exist. Two, humanity didn't know they were doing things that were wrong until it was shown to them by a standard higher than them. This shows people do wrong knowingly and unknowingly.

So why did you make that statement defending moral relativism that contradicts this?

Now I answered this question twice in our conversation. Twice, Kenny.

I looked over our replies. 5/28 12;25am you answered my question the first time, but you made a mistake using the quote function and made it appear as if the first part of your reply (where you answered my question) was actually a part of the question I asked, then the second part of your question looked like it was the only answer you gave, so at first glance it looked like you neglected to answer the question, thus I asked it again.
That was my mistake, but it isn’t like I don't listen to you, it’s just when mistakes using the quote function are made, misunderstandings like those are bound to happen.
Now if you agree you make mistakes and sin, why did you say those who go against their religion don't believe and accept what their religion says? What did you mean by this? Are you saying to sin is a part of Christianity?




Ken

[EssentialSacrifice]

Are you saying to sin is a part of Christianity?

Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Are you truly saying you were once Christian ? If this portion of Christianity is unknown to you...

Isaiah 40:28-31
28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. 29 He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. 30 Even youths grow tired and weary, and young men stumble and fall; 31 but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.

and this will be unavailable to you ...

Isaiah 43:25-26
25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. 26 Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence.

There is no case for innocence, without sin there is no case at all. In the end...Without that hope, you have no case to state.

[Kenny]

Are you saying to sin is a part of Christianity?

Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Are you truly saying you were once Christian ? If this portion of Christianity is unknown to you...

The way I see it, to proclaim that all have fallen short is not the same as proclaiming falling short is a part of Christianity, true Christians do make mistakes, but they aren't making mistakes because they are christian; they make mistakes because they are human. That's how I see it.

Ken

[RickD]

Ken wrote:
The way I see it, to proclaim that all have fallen short is not the same as proclaiming falling short is a part of Christianity; it's a part of being human.

So, as you see it, do Christians fall short?

If you say yes, then falling short is part of Christianity.

If you say no, then you are deluded.

[Kenny]

Ken wrote:
The way I see it, to proclaim that all have fallen short is not the same as proclaiming falling short is a part of Christianity; it's a part of being human.

So, as you see it, do Christians fall short?

If you say yes, then falling short is part of Christianity.

If you say no, then you are deluded.

Yes I do see Christians fall short. I also see them eating their vegetables, driving cars, paying rent, and playing sports. Is that a part of being Christian as well? In other words; is everything you do in life a part of being Christian? Or is everything you are required to do in life a part of being Christian.

Ken

[Mallz]

why are you making a statement defending moral relativism?
So why did you make that statement defending moral relativism that contradicts this?

Because I believe most people from every culture and faith are really moral relativists. Most people are humanists. You can see that by the contradiction in their belief/behavior (aka why and how they live out their lives) and what they claim they are a representative of.

but it isn’t like I don't listen to you,

It just felt that way.
And I was responding with a quote because I was quoting myself from the first time I replied.
Guess I'm thinking that there's assumptions to what I'm saying and I'd like a discussion (which includes asking me to clarify what I'm saying if needed, totally). So I felt like there wasn't really a discussion between us.

Now if you agree you make mistakes and sin, why did you say those who go against their religion don't believe and accept what their religion says? What did you mean by this? Are you saying to sin is a part of Christianity?

Sin is a part of life, unavoidable by all, so ergo a part of being Christian. But for the Christian, it's a battle as Paul states starting in Romans 7:18. It's desiring to become a Son of God (this title to me includes both sexes), dying to the flesh and gaining an eternal perspective, which drastically changes your worldview. It's obtaining a new nature that can recognize and battle sin until death (among many, many other things).

And for the underlined, I say this because of the lack of belief that exists. It's the moral relativity problem. The mixing of humanism into all belief systems, something humanity naturally does (we are good at muddying up things).
But you need to know what would make someone a hypocrite before defining someone as such. For the Christian, if you deny Jesus is the Word become flesh (you'd need to know what that means), was resurrected and established a new covenant with humanity (again, understanding what that means) for just two examples, that would make someone a hypocrite if they claimed to be Christian and denied either. Which is why Jehovah Witnesses are not Christians, they deny the first example. But, lets say I steal. That doesn't make me a hypocrite to Christianity, it does show an issue with me. Something is wrong that is causing me to steal. It could be a moral relativity issue (which I think is most cases; 'I don't believe this is wrong'), could be out of need (My family is going hungry and I need to get them some food), or out of desire (you just don't care, feel entitled).
The act of my stealing shows I'm denatured in a way, a cry for help of sorts. The goal of the Christian is to realign ourselves to what we were made to be, Sons of God. That happens by letting the Holy Spirit remold us on a path to perfection (which unfortunately won't happen till after death. Well, for me I personally believe I won't die and will be a part of the rapture, so once that happens My body/nature will be changed permanently. But this could never happen if I didn't allow it).

God wants a foundation to work with, bro. All we need to do is give it to Him. He will do the rest if we desire, expressed by our living faith.

[EssentialSacrifice]

The way I see it, to proclaim that all have fallen short is not the same as proclaiming falling short is a part of Christianity, true Christians do make mistakes, but they aren't making mistakes because they are christian; they make mistakes because they are human. That's how I see it.

Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Read the entire verse ken... you and I (humans) have each fallen short. I believe that, and you don't. To be justified freely by the will of God through His grace by the sacrifice of Christ, the redemption for those (humans) who believe in that sacrifice are known as Christians, by their faith ... only by His grace.

they aren't making mistakes because they are Christian; they make mistakes because they are human. That's how I see it.

Only a Christian (human) would know he has made the mistake of falling short, so obviously only the subset of humanity known as Christians are aware of their shortcomings.

What you believe or how you see it is irrelevant in regards to who is mindful of their shortcomings. We're all human, only Christians see the spiritual error of our mistakes.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

[Mallz]

is everything you do in life a part of being Christian? Or is everything you are required to do in life a part of being Christian.

I'm curious, could you re-word the underlined for me? I'm not understanding. What do you mean by 'required to do in life'?

[Kenny]

is everything you do in life a part of being Christian? Or is everything you are required to do in life a part of being Christian.

I'm curious, could you re-word the underlined for me? I'm not understanding. What do you mean by 'required to do in life'?

My bad; I worded that wrong. I meant to ask is everything you are required to do as a Christian a part of being a Christian; like accepting Jesus, and asking him for forgiveness when you mess up.

Ken

[Mallz]

is everything you are required to do as a Christian a part of being a Christian; like accepting Jesus, and asking him for forgiveness when you mess up.

Yes, but we'd have to think of what that means. As I understand it (and I could be missing something) a Christian is one who:
Believes in Jesus as a person-hood of God (One God, three persons) who brought the way for humanity to be reconciled back to Him by taking on a mortal nature, dying and raising from the dead to pay the judicial penalty of sin effectively buying all those who believe in Him to be His eternally.

It's more than accepting Jesus. It's believing in Him. Belief comes hand in hand with how you react to Him. It's about having a relationship. It's as real a relationship as you would have with any of your friends or family (but so much more, and more real in such a convoluted world).

Believing in Him means you believe all He says and trusting Him that He is right (for me that trust didn't come until many things could be reasoned and revealed to me, which many revelations didn't come until I started genuinely seeking Him). If you pick and choose His teaches, or accept this about Him and reject that about Him, you aren't believing in Him. There is no half-way. That's a false Jesus someone made up in their head based off of moral relativism and they're really worshiping themselves as they just created a god based off of The God.

*edit
Wanted to add:

is everything you do in life a part of being Christian?

Yes.

[Kenny]

is everything you do in life a part of being Christian?

Yes.

So if I understand you correctly, and getting back to my previous scenario, paying bills, going to work, eating, everything you do in life, is a part of being a Christian even though it is indiscernible from what those of other religions or no religion at all does. Is that your position?

[PaulSacramento]

is everything you do in life a part of being Christian?

Yes.

So if I understand you correctly, and getting back to my previous scenario, paying bills, going to work, eating, everything you do in life, is a part of being a Christian even though it is indiscernible from what those of other religions or no religion at all does. Is that your position?

That goes for all Christians Kenny.
Everything we do, we do for Christ.

[Kenny]

is everything you do in life a part of being Christian?

Yes.

So if I understand you correctly, and getting back to my previous scenario, paying bills, going to work, eating, everything you do in life, is a part of being a Christian even though it is indiscernible from what those of other religions or no religion at all does. Is that your position?

That goes for all Christians Kenny.
Everything we do, we do for Christ.

Thanx for your perspective

K

[Mallz]

...paying bills, going to work, eating, everything you do in life, is a part of being a Christian even though it is indiscernible from what those of other religions or no religion at all does. Is that your position?

Isn't that just saying everyone pays bills, eats, works, etc.? Everyone engages in their life through their worldview. Christians would engage life through a Christian worldview.
Is that what you mean? Or am I not getting it?