Evidence for God from Science

Ken: Science does not claim a point in history when no material existed. Science goes back to the a Singularity and that singularity was material and energy, so your claim that all material and energy had a beginning is pure speculation on your part; not backed up by science.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pmKen, this is where you are not honest with yourself. Consciousness and intelligence does not reside outside of a material, living being wired for such capabilities.

So…… how does this equate to me being dishonest with myself?

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pmAnd so are you asserting intelligent physical beings existed before the Big Bang?

I’ve asserted nothing. As I’ve said (countless times) before, I don’t have answers to these questions you guys are asking me, all I am doing is speculating on what sounds reasonably possible.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pmWhether particles or just energy existed before the BB, no lifeforms yet existed (not for nearly 11 billion years after the Big Bang began - according to scientists - nor could they have existed.

Humm… kinda knocks the heck outa that “God did it” answer you’ve been building up to all of this time doesn’t it? Or is this where you kick science aside because it ventures away from those pre-determined answers you keep insisting upon?

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pmSo as intelligence and consciousness require a lifeform to exist, again, you have no intelligent being to produce such.

Got it! NO intelligent beings at during time.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pmAs only some massive Intelligence could have created and designed such material beings so capable.

Wait a minute!!! Didn’t we just agree that there were NO intelligent beings during that time??? Now all of as sudden you creapin’ this MASSIVE intelligent being into the picture? How do you do that? I thought you said I was the one who is supposed to like football! (post #226)

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:24 pmSo, as there were no beings before the Big Bang, where did that intelligence come from or reside, before physical beings existed? Was there something intelligent that preceded the Big Bang or not?

Prior to the Big Bang, all matter and energy of the Universe existed within the Singularity, right? I was saying it sounds reasonable to me that some of the matter could have evolved into intelligent beings. Now before you go accusing me of being dishonest with myself, remember; this is only a speculation I find reasonable; not a claim. Fair enough?

No Ken, you dismiss God because He seems unproven to you as "supposedly" existing in the unprovable spiritual realm. And yet, you speculate intelligence and consciousness must somehow have had its origins in something that pre-existed living beings. And yet, these things (consciousness and intelligence) cannot exist outside of a physical being with a physical mind. Which means something BEFORE any physical planets or beings exusted that had a mind and awareness, as these are the only place such things can reside (inside a physical mind!), and so a thinking, intelligent Being was necessary to think, create and design.

Seems you are fine with some eternal, uncreated intelligence within your miraculous Singularity, but not within the Spiritual realm. But at least I see you appearing to realize SOMETHING had to be eternal and intelligent, whether pre-existing in either the spiritual or the material realm. You also appear to realize that something at least had to have God-like intelligence and abilities - even if you don't think it was the God of the Bible and don't believe where that Source resided or that it was a Being.

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm No Ken, you dismiss God because He seems unproven to you as "supposedly" existing in the unprovable spiritual realm. And yet, you speculate intelligence and consciousness must somehow have had its origins in something that pre-existed living beings.

No; you keep acting as if consciousness and intelligence has an actual existence; I’m saying they don’t. Again; when the beings evolved, they eventually became intelligent and conscious.

Kenny,
The universe is comprised of all that exists.
Energy and matter.
As such, the quantum singularity form which the universe expanded from MUST have had to contain all the energy and matter that the universe currently contains, correct?
Your view is that conscience, consciousness and intelligence are simply descriptions of things, yes?

So, of what things IN PARTICULAR that have always existed in the universe, are they descriptions of?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:11 am Kenny,
The universe is comprised of all that exists.
Energy and matter.
As such, the quantum singularity form which the universe expanded from MUST have had to contain all the energy and matter that the universe currently contains, correct?
Your view is that conscience, consciousness and intelligence are simply descriptions of things, yes?

So, of what things IN PARTICULAR that have always existed in the universe, are they descriptions of?

Anything that exhibits those traits. Obviously if nothing was conscious or intelligent back then, consciousness and intelligence didn't exist back then, but some of the contents of what did exist at that time had the potential to become that.

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:57 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:11 am Kenny,
The universe is comprised of all that exists.
Energy and matter.
As such, the quantum singularity form which the universe expanded from MUST have had to contain all the energy and matter that the universe currently contains, correct?
Your view is that conscience, consciousness and intelligence are simply descriptions of things, yes?

So, of what things IN PARTICULAR that have always existed in the universe, are they descriptions of?

Anything that exhibits those traits. Obviously if nothing was conscious or intelligent back then, consciousness and intelligence didn't exist back then, but some of the contents of what did exist at that time had the potential to become that.

Even if something only had the potential to be intelligent, that means that the properties of intelligence would have to be present, correct?

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:22 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:57 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:11 am Kenny,
The universe is comprised of all that exists.
Energy and matter.
As such, the quantum singularity form which the universe expanded from MUST have had to contain all the energy and matter that the universe currently contains, correct?
Your view is that conscience, consciousness and intelligence are simply descriptions of things, yes?

So, of what things IN PARTICULAR that have always existed in the universe, are they descriptions of?

Anything that exhibits those traits. Obviously if nothing was conscious or intelligent back then, consciousness and intelligence didn't exist back then, but some of the contents of what did exist at that time had the potential to become that.

Even if something only had the potential to be intelligent, that means that the properties of intelligence would have to be present, correct?

What do you mean by "the properties of intelligence"?

Philip wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm But at least I see you appearing to realize SOMETHING had to be eternal and intelligent, whether pre-existing in either the spiritual or the material realm. You also appear to realize that something at least had to have God-like intelligence and abilities

Nothing I've said indicated I realize anything like that; you've obviously misunderstood me

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:22 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:57 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:11 am Kenny,
The universe is comprised of all that exists.
Energy and matter.
As such, the quantum singularity form which the universe expanded from MUST have had to contain all the energy and matter that the universe currently contains, correct?
Your view is that conscience, consciousness and intelligence are simply descriptions of things, yes?

So, of what things IN PARTICULAR that have always existed in the universe, are they descriptions of?

Anything that exhibits those traits. Obviously if nothing was conscious or intelligent back then, consciousness and intelligence didn't exist back then, but some of the contents of what did exist at that time had the potential to become that.

Even if something only had the potential to be intelligent, that means that the properties of intelligence would have to be present, correct?

What do you mean by "the properties of intelligence"?

What defines intelligence, what makes up intelligence, the traits as you put it.

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:49 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:22 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:57 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:11 am Kenny,
The universe is comprised of all that exists.
Energy and matter.
As such, the quantum singularity form which the universe expanded from MUST have had to contain all the energy and matter that the universe currently contains, correct?
Your view is that conscience, consciousness and intelligence are simply descriptions of things, yes?

So, of what things IN PARTICULAR that have always existed in the universe, are they descriptions of?

Anything that exhibits those traits. Obviously if nothing was conscious or intelligent back then, consciousness and intelligence didn't exist back then, but some of the contents of what did exist at that time had the potential to become that.

Even if something only had the potential to be intelligent, that means that the properties of intelligence would have to be present, correct?

What do you mean by "the properties of intelligence"?

What defines intelligence, what makes up intelligence, the traits as you put it.

Okay; then I would say no. Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist. What do you think?

Ken: Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist.

And so, WHAT exactly can have or use intelligence besides a being? Or something an already intelligent being creates and programs? Can blind, non-intelligent things have intelligence?

Ken: Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:36 pmAnd so, WHAT exactly can have or use intelligence besides a being? Or something an already intelligent being creates and programs?

Nothing that I know of.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:36 pmCan blind, non-intelligent things have intelligence?

I believe it is The law of non contradiction which says you can't be "A" and "not A" at the same time

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:36 pm

Ken: Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist.

And so, WHAT exactly can have or use intelligence besides a being? Or something an already intelligent being creates and programs? Can blind, non-intelligent things have intelligence?

I think maybe you should rethink your use of the word 'blind'. Some people are blind, but not unintelligent. I know you don't specifically mean literal lack of vision, but the word seems kind of superfluous anyway.

Nicki, perhaps you are right - basically, by blind, I mean non-conscious, non-thinking, non-aware - with the ability of a rock.

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:27 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:49 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:42 am

PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:22 am

Kenny wrote: ↑Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:57 am
Anything that exhibits those traits. Obviously if nothing was conscious or intelligent back then, consciousness and intelligence didn't exist back then, but some of the contents of what did exist at that time had the potential to become that.

Even if something only had the potential to be intelligent, that means that the properties of intelligence would have to be present, correct?

What do you mean by "the properties of intelligence"?

What defines intelligence, what makes up intelligence, the traits as you put it.

Okay; then I would say no. Until "X" becomes intelligent, the properties of intelligence does not exist. What do you think?

So they come from out of nowhere ?