Evidence for God from Science

By the way, and I kept forgetting to mention this for the original post, Genesis 6 is considered, by some, as the biblical version of/ polemic against, the Apkallu of Mesopotamia.

This link here kind of gives a quick summary of the last few pages:

http://www.equip.org/article/identity-o ... nesis-612/

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:Paul,

For the sake of this discussion, we can categorize angels, or divine beings as you call them, into two categories.

1) Angels that have not sinned.
2) Fallen angels. Or angels that have sinned.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to agree that "sons of God" does not refer to fallen angels(divine beings that have sinned), anywhere in scripture.

And, we all agree that "sons of God" can refer to Good angels, in scripture, as well as certain humans that God has called for a purpose.

Here's my logic. Show me where I'm wrong.

1)Scripturally, We can rule out Fallen angels, because there's no argument that scripture ever refers to fallen angels as "sons of God".

2) Even though "sons of God" can refer to good angels in scripture, we can rule them out as the sons of God spoken of in Genesis 6, because if these good angels took women as wives(however you want to define wives), then they are no longer good angels, because by the act of taking women, they sinned.

3) "Sons of God" in Genesis 6, must then refer to humans.

Sons of God does NOT explicitly refer to fallen angels.
the Sons of God in Job, for example, were simply present for a "meeting" of sorts.
There is no explicit designation "fallen angel" anywhere in the bible ( which doesn't mean there aren't any of course).
Angel is a term that means messenger, in 2nd temple Judaism and Christianity, it got used as a general term for all divine beings ( other than God).
I don't think that Sons of God only refers to good "angels" since Pslam 82 seems to state that they will be tried for doing bad things.
There is no statement that divine beings are all good, but there are many showing that some are bad and have rebelled.
So, Sons of God seems to be a designation for divine beings without making a statement on wither they are good or bad since we seem to have evidence that they can be both.

Again,
Show anywhere in scripture that sons of God refers to fallen angels. Nobody seems to want to provide scripture that backs your argument.

Paul,

You seem to be the only one who has a problem understanding what a fallen angel is. Everyone else knows.

Start with the verse in Psalms 82 that shows sons of God is used to refer to fallen angels. Nobody has provided scripture to show sons of God referring to fallen angels.

I have said over and over that here is NO SCRIPTURE that states that the sons of god are fallen angels, how many more times do I have to say it ?
As a matter of fact, there is no mention of the term "fallen angel".
Not sure how you can say that I don't understand what a fallen angel is, have you been reading ANY of my posts?

At BEST we can get the implication of a "fallen angel" from passages that speak of divine beings rebelling against god:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fallen_angels

Nowhere do you find the title or term that equal "fallen angel" in the OT or NT.

It may be Implied in some passages, yes, but is not explicit.

So, for the last time:
Sons of God does NOT mean fallen angel and to make things as clear as possible:
One MAY associate fallen angels with sons of god ONLY in passages that imply rebellion by sons of god and ONLY when sons of god implies divine beings which MAY or MAY NOT BE the case in Genesis 6.

Is that better?

NOW as for Pslam 82 and if referring to fallen angels, the verse is:

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

If sons of God refers to divine beings ( and since God is in His place- heaven- in the midst of them, that means they ar ein heaven, so they are divine beings) and divine beings are angels ( not sure of anyone that will dispute that divine beings from heaven are called angels) and God says they will "die like men and FALL" ( verse 6-7), then one can deduce that some angels are fallen and these fallen angels were called sons of God.

Then, we just have to find out, who are the angles that sinned that Jude and Peter speak of.
Who are the angels that we will judge according to Paul.
Who the Chief princes and princes are in Daniel 10.

And of course address Isaiah 24:21
21 On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.

PaulSacramento wrote:Then, we just have to find out, who are the angles that sinned that Jude and Peter speak of.
Who are the angels that we will judge according to Paul.
Who the Chief princes and princes are in Daniel 10.

Who the angles are?

I'd have to guess they're obtuse angles, due to the fact that obtuse fits your responses.


I'll reply to your last post when I get more time. But for now, I think you need to reread Psalms 82.

It's about people, not divine beings.

I can't get much clearer than that dude, seriously.

As for this:

I'll reply to your last post when I get more time. But for now, I think you need to reread Psalms 82.

It's about people, not divine beings.

If this is about people, please explain how these people are IN HEAVEN ( God takes His place in the divine council)and why them dying like men would be such an issue (since as mortals they will die like men anyways).

This ties in with the judgment mentioned in Isaiah.

Is psalm 82 is about humans then all the other Psalms that speak of Gods are kind of silly:
Psalms 86:8, 96:4

Pretty much any comment that states that God is higher or better or more worthy than others gods become silly since they don't exist.
The writers would be comparing God to something that didn't exist, God's victory over other gods means nothing since they would be victories over things that didn't exist.

There are differences when humans are said they will be LIKE Gods ( Moses in Exodus 7:1 for example) and beings that ARE Gods.

Psalm 89:5-7
Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
6 For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,
7 a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
and awesome above all who are around him?

Additionally, there is no text in
the Hebrew Bible that has a council of human Israelite judges who are assigned to judge the nations
of the earth.

PaulSacramento wrote:I have said over and over that here is NO SCRIPTURE that states that the sons of god are fallen angels, how many more times do I have to say it ?
As a matter of fact, there is no mention of the term "fallen angel".
Not sure how you can say that I don't understand what a fallen angel is, have you been reading ANY of my posts?

At BEST we can get the implication of a "fallen angel" from passages that speak of divine beings rebelling against god:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fallen_angels

Nowhere do you find the title or term that equal "fallen angel" in the OT or NT.

It may be Implied in some passages, yes, but is not explicit.

So, for the last time:
Sons of God does NOT mean fallen angel and to make things as clear as possible:
One MAY associate fallen angels with sons of god ONLY in passages that imply rebellion by sons of god and ONLY when sons of god implies divine beings which MAY or MAY NOT BE the case in Genesis 6.

Is that better?
As clear as mud.
NOW as for Pslam 82 and if referring to fallen angels, the verse is:

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

If sons of God refers to divine beings ( and since God is in His place- heaven- in the midst of them, that means they ar ein heaven, so they are divine beings) and divine beings are angels ( not sure of anyone that will dispute that divine beings from heaven are called angels) and God says they will "die like men and FALL" ( verse 6-7), then one can deduce that some angels are fallen and these fallen angels were called sons of God.

Psalms 82, is almost universally understood as talking about human kings and or rulers. Frankly, I have no idea how or why you think it's talking about angels.

RickD wrote: Psalms 82, is almost universally understood as talking about human kings and or rulers.

Here is the NASB translation of Psalm 82

1 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2 How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3 Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7 “Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.

The NASB translators agree with the scholarly consensus that Psalm 82 is referring to human rulers.

In John 10, Jesus quotes Psalm 82 and provides some insight into who Asaph is referring to as "gods" in Psalm 82

33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may [f]know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus identifies those referred to as "gods" in Psalm 82 as those "to whom the word of God came".

Here's Alfred Edersheim's discussion concerning Jesus' statement in John 10

And when the Jews ignored, as so many in our days, this line of evidence, and insisted that He had been guilty of blasphemy, since, being a man, He had made Himself God, the Lord replied in a manner that calls for our special attention. From the peculiarly Hebraistic mode of designating a quotation from the Psalms as 'written in the Law,' we gather that we have here a literal transcript of the very words of our Lord.30 But what we specially wish, is, emphatically, to disclaim any interpretation of them, which would seem to imply that Christ had wished to evade their inference: that He claimed to be One with the Father - and to convey to them, that nothing more had been meant than what might lawfully be applied to an ordinary man. Such certainly is not the case. He had claimed to be One with the Father in work and working: from which, of course, the necessary inference was, that He was also One with Him in Nature and Power. Let us see whether the claim was strange. In Ps. lxxxii. 6 the titles 'God' (Elohim) and 'Sons of the Highest' (Beney Elyon) had been given to Judges as the Representatives and Vicegerents of God, wielding His delegated authority, since to them had come His Word of authorisation. But here was authority not transmitted by 'the word,' but personal and direct consecration, and personal and direct Mission on the part of God. The comparison made was not with prophets, because they only told the word and message from God, but with Judges, who, as such, did the very act of God. If those who, in so acting, had received an indirect commission, were 'gods,' the very representatives of God,31 could it be blasphemy when He claimed to be the Son of God, Who had received, not authority through a word transmitted through long centuries, but direct personal command to do the Father's Work; had been directly and personally consecrated to it by the Father, and directly and personally sent by Him, not to say, but to do, the work of the Father?

According to Edersheim, Jesus is contrasting human rulers who are called "gods" because they exercise delegated authority through the word of God, with Jesus, "the Son of God" who was sent into the world by the Father to do the works of the Father.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I have said over and over that here is NO SCRIPTURE that states that the sons of god are fallen angels, how many more times do I have to say it ?
As a matter of fact, there is no mention of the term "fallen angel".
Not sure how you can say that I don't understand what a fallen angel is, have you been reading ANY of my posts?

At BEST we can get the implication of a "fallen angel" from passages that speak of divine beings rebelling against god:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fallen_angels

Nowhere do you find the title or term that equal "fallen angel" in the OT or NT.

It may be Implied in some passages, yes, but is not explicit.

So, for the last time:
Sons of God does NOT mean fallen angel and to make things as clear as possible:
One MAY associate fallen angels with sons of god ONLY in passages that imply rebellion by sons of god and ONLY when sons of god implies divine beings which MAY or MAY NOT BE the case in Genesis 6.

Is that better?
As clear as mud.
NOW as for Pslam 82 and if referring to fallen angels, the verse is:

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

If sons of God refers to divine beings ( and since God is in His place- heaven- in the midst of them, that means they ar ein heaven, so they are divine beings) and divine beings are angels ( not sure of anyone that will dispute that divine beings from heaven are called angels) and God says they will "die like men and FALL" ( verse 6-7), then one can deduce that some angels are fallen and these fallen angels were called sons of God.

Psalms 82, is almost universally understood as talking about human kings and or rulers. Frankly, I have no idea how or why you think it's talking about angels.

Because he defers his understanding to Mike Heiser, who makes a lot of money selling the sensational.

SoCalExile wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I have said over and over that here is NO SCRIPTURE that states that the sons of god are fallen angels, how many more times do I have to say it ?
As a matter of fact, there is no mention of the term "fallen angel".
Not sure how you can say that I don't understand what a fallen angel is, have you been reading ANY of my posts?

At BEST we can get the implication of a "fallen angel" from passages that speak of divine beings rebelling against god:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fallen_angels

Nowhere do you find the title or term that equal "fallen angel" in the OT or NT.

It may be Implied in some passages, yes, but is not explicit.

So, for the last time:
Sons of God does NOT mean fallen angel and to make things as clear as possible:
One MAY associate fallen angels with sons of god ONLY in passages that imply rebellion by sons of god and ONLY when sons of god implies divine beings which MAY or MAY NOT BE the case in Genesis 6.

Is that better?
As clear as mud.
NOW as for Pslam 82 and if referring to fallen angels, the verse is:

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

If sons of God refers to divine beings ( and since God is in His place- heaven- in the midst of them, that means they ar ein heaven, so they are divine beings) and divine beings are angels ( not sure of anyone that will dispute that divine beings from heaven are called angels) and God says they will "die like men and FALL" ( verse 6-7), then one can deduce that some angels are fallen and these fallen angels were called sons of God.

Psalms 82, is almost universally understood as talking about human kings and or rulers. Frankly, I have no idea how or why you think it's talking about angels.

Because he defers his understanding to Mike Heiser, who makes a lot of money selling the sensational.

You're obsessed with Heiser

There are plenty other scholars/Christians who hold to the fallen angel theory as well.

Stu wrote:

You're obsessed with Heiser

There are plenty other scholars/Christians who hold to the fallen angel theory as well.

Heiser is the main proponent of the Divine Council teaching which Paul tried to push early in this thread - so yeah, he's a fan.