Evidence for God from Science

cheezerrox wrote:
I believe a good attitude to have in all matters of the Law is that where Torah is clear, be clear, and when disagreements are possible, live an example and pray about it.

And we agree. That's why I said for those of us not under the law, it's between us and God if we decide to follow the Sabbath law. If you want to follow the Sabbath, that's between you and God. If I don't follow the Sabbath law, that's between me and God.

Boy, I'm glad we finally came to an agreement on this.

Rick if you want a real solid teaching on the Shabbat, I would recommend this one by 119ministries.

http://119ministries.com/the-sabbath-day?vi=387999

Shalom....

RickD wrote:And we agree. That's why I said for those of us not under the law, it's between us and God if we decide to follow the Sabbath law. If you want to follow the Sabbath, that's between you and God. If I don't follow the Sabbath law, that's between me and God.

Boy, I'm glad we finally came to an agreement on this.

Well, we may still disagree, as I would say Torah is very clear about keeping Shabbat (and that the rest of the Bible is clear about the non-abrogation of Torah). But, it's not my responsibility, nor is it in my power, to convict you of this, especially considering I am a fallible individual who could be wrong. That's the Spirit's job, and if it's something important in His sight, He'll convict one of us in His time and in His way.

At the end of the day, all I can do is rejoice that regardless of theological conviction, we're all justified and accepted through G-d's Grace alone, and we'll be able to speak again in heaven and bust on whoever of us was wrong .

cheezerrox wrote: Well, we may still disagree, as I would say Torah is very clear about keeping Shabbat (and that the rest of the Bible is clear about the non-abrogation of Torah). But, it's not my responsibility, nor is it in my power, to convict you of this, especially considering I am a fallible individual who could be wrong. That's the Spirit's job, and if it's something important in His sight, He'll convict one of us in His time and in His way.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3-4, “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

Now we know why we want to keep His commandments. Especially the Shabbat.

Well, we may still disagree, as I would say Torah is very clear about keeping Shabbat (and that the rest of the Bible is clear about the non-abrogation of Torah). But, it's not my responsibility, nor is it in my power, to convict you of this, especially considering I am a fallible individual who could be wrong. That's the Spirit's job, and if it's something important in His sight, He'll convict one of us in His time and in His way.

And, scripture is clear to me that I'm not obligated to keep the Sabbath. So, each of us has a clear conscience between ourselves and God about something that Christians can disagree on without affecting our salvation.

Gman wrote:1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3-4, “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

Now we know why we want to keep His commandments. Especially the Shabbat.

Lol, well, I'd certainly agree, Gman.

RickD wrote:And, scripture is clear to me that I'm not obligated to keep the Sabbath. So, each of us has a clear conscience between ourselves and God about something that Christians can disagree on without affecting our salvation.

Indeed, my friend, salvation is unaffected completely. And for that I'm glad.



But, to anyone who may still be following this thread, it's kinda gone a bit off path and become less about debating what Scripture says about keeping Shabbat under the New Covenant and more about questions towards those of us who do. A lot of points have gone unanswered. I suppose everyone just doesn't care about this anymore? Which is fine, but, what does it say for a position if you can't hold it up to scrutiny?

Gman wrote:

cheezerrox wrote: Well, we may still disagree, as I would say Torah is very clear about keeping Shabbat (and that the rest of the Bible is clear about the non-abrogation of Torah). But, it's not my responsibility, nor is it in my power, to convict you of this, especially considering I am a fallible individual who could be wrong. That's the Spirit's job, and if it's something important in His sight, He'll convict one of us in His time and in His way.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3-4, “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

Now we know why we want to keep His commandments. Especially the Shabbat.

Gman, we're going around in circles here, and I'm tired and dizzy. I'm tired of being told to do something against what my conscience is clear on.

But with Jesus’ atonement, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), we no longer are required to keep the Law and hence the Sabbath which was only a shadow of things to come (Col. 2:16-17). We are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus because in Him we have rest (Matt. 11:28). We are not under obligation to keep the Law and this goes for the Sabbath as well.

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gene ... ath-or-not

RickD wrote:Gman, we're going around in circles here, and I'm tired and dizzy. I'm tired of being told to do something against what my conscience is clear on.

But with Jesus’ atonement, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), we no longer are required to keep the Law and hence the Sabbath which was only a shadow of things to come (Col. 2:16-17). We are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus because in Him we have rest (Matt. 11:28). We are not under obligation to keep the Law and this goes for the Sabbath as well.

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gene ... ath-or-not

Rick, for the sake of argument, if I could go through this article, and prove to you that it's incorrect, and that Scripture does NOT say that keeping Shabbat has ever been done away with, would it change your position?

cheezerrox wrote:

RickD wrote:Gman, we're going around in circles here, and I'm tired and dizzy. I'm tired of being told to do something against what my conscience is clear on.

But with Jesus’ atonement, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1), we no longer are required to keep the Law and hence the Sabbath which was only a shadow of things to come (Col. 2:16-17). We are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus because in Him we have rest (Matt. 11:28). We are not under obligation to keep the Law and this goes for the Sabbath as well.

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/gene ... ath-or-not

Rick, for the sake of argument, if I could go through this article, and prove to you that it's incorrect, and that Scripture does NOT say that keeping Shabbat has ever been done away with, would it change your position?

Since we're on the 18th page of this thread, and nobody has convinced me that I need to follow the sabbath, the answer would be a big NO. My argument really isn't that keeping the Sabbath has been done away with for Christians. Christians never had to keep the sabbath in the first place. So, again, NO.

Cheezerrox, refute this if you really want to dig into it. This is much closer to what I believe about the sabbath.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath

RickD wrote: Gman, we're going around in circles here, and I'm tired and dizzy. I'm tired of being told to do something against what my conscience is clear on.

Rick.. I believe part of the problem here is understanding the law. It's really there to set you free. Once you understand that, the rest falls into place. It's for your own good.

But with Jesus’ atonement, and justification by faith (Rom. 5:1)

Yes... That's true. Justification is by faith. But now if we claim that we have the faith, where are our works of the law that show we have the faith? As an example, owning a car and leaving it parked in the garage doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a driver now. A driver is one who drives the car.

RickD wrote:we no longer are required to keep the Law and hence the Sabbath which was only a shadow of things to come (Col. 2:16-17).

Ok let's look at the verse..

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Are you sure that it's saying not to obey the Sabbath anymore? Can you see that it also may say that don't let anyone judge you in your obedience to the Sabbath?

But let's backup a few verses to Colossians 2:8. As we can see it's made in the context of human tradition.. In other words, don't let those who follow human traditions judge you in regards to your Sabbath day.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

Clearer now?

RickD wrote:We are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus because in Him we have rest (Matt. 11:28). We are not under obligation to keep the Law and this goes for the Sabbath as well.

We are not under legalism.. That's true. But we are not to destroy the law either.. Look what Christ said about that. He said that he didn't come to destroy the law. In fact He said till heaven and earth pass away one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Has heaven or earth passed away yet?

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

RickD wrote:Since we're on the 18th page of this thread, and nobody has convinced me that I need to follow the sabbath, the answer would be a big NO. My argument really isn't that keeping the Sabbath has been done away with for Christians. Christians never had to keep the sabbath in the first place. So, again, NO.

So what you're saying is that, regardless of whether or not you could be shown the contrary from Scripture, you're committed enough to your position to still believe/practice according to your initial interpretation?

Btw, if Christians never had to observe Shabbat, and were never taught to, then why did Christians (Jews and Gentiles) keep it up until the fifth century?

RickD wrote:Cheezerrox, refute this if you really want to dig into it. This is much closer to what I believe about the sabbath.
http://www.gci.org/law/sabbath

Again, if you're saying that it doesn't matter whether or not you can be shown what the Bible says, then I don't see much point.

So what you're saying is that, regardless of whether or not you could be shown the contrary from Scripture, you're committed enough to your position to still believe/practice according to your initial interpretation?

What I'm saying is that Ive read 18 pages in this thread, and countless pages in other threads, and nobody's interpretation of scripture has convinced me that it's anything other than a matter of conscience between an individual believer and God.

Again, if you're saying that it doesn't matter whether or not you can be shown what the Bible says, then I don't see much point.

Cheezerrox, you're starting to sound like Ken Ham now. I've read what the bible says, and that's why I believe what I do. Your interpretation of what the bible says about something that has no affect on salvation, is not my interpretation. If you said "can be shown what I(cheezerrox) think the bible says", then that would be a better way to put it. I'm sorry, but Ken Ham has got me sick of people equating their interpretation with scripture itself. So, if you didn't mean it that way, then I apologize.

Rick.. I believe part of the problem here is understanding the law. It's really there to set you free. Once you understand that, the rest falls into place. It's for your own good.

Gman, Christ has already set me free. And, as John 8:36 says: So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Are you sure that it's saying not to obey the Sabbath anymore? Can you see that it also may say that don't let anyone judge you in your obedience to the Sabbath?

I see it as not letting anyone judge a believer whether he wants to obey the sabbath or not obey the sabbath. It's a matter of conscience between an individual believer and God.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ"?

Clearer now?

So, my having the freedom in Christ to obey the sabbath or not, according to my conscience, is " hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."

Yes, it's becoming clearer now.

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Gman, good for you if you're called great in the kingdom of heaven, for obeying the Sabbath. I'll take my low position in heaven if I get there with a clear conscience on this issue.


Byblos, are you there? Is this what I did to you with my endless threads trying to show you that even though you trust Christ for your salvation, your way of worshiping God is less than my way? God forgive me. I just got a huge taste of my own bitter medicine. Now, isn't that IRONIC? That just hit me like a 100mph brick smack in my face. Byblos, I'm sorry for tormenting you. Talk about being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

RickD wrote: Gman, Christ has already set me free. And, as John 8:36 says: So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

I believe that is what G-d wants for you and me....

I see it as not letting anyone judge a believer whether he wants to obey the sabbath or not obey the sabbath. It's a matter of conscience between an individual believer and God.

So, my having the freedom in Christ to obey the sabbath or not, according to my conscience, is " hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."

Yes, it's becoming clearer now.

Sorry there mate.. I wasn't trying to judge you or using the laws to judge others. This isn't how it works.. But G-d would rather have us be set apart. Not intertwined with the works of this world. We live in the world, but we are not of this world either.

Leviticus 20:26
You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God

Hebrews 7:26
Such a high priest meets our need-one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

' 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Gman, good for you if you're called great in the kingdom of heaven, for obeying the Sabbath. I'll take my low position in heaven if I get there with a clear conscience on this issue.

I'm not trying to take the higher ground here... As far as I'm concerned, I arrived too late..

But I came pretty close. Just ran out of time...

Sorry there mate.. I wasn't trying to judge you or using the laws to judge others. This isn't how it works.. But G-d would rather have us be set apart. Not intertwined with the works of this world. We live in the world, but we are not of this world either.

Leviticus 20:26
You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God

Hebrews 7:26
Such a high priest meets our need-one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

' 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

But Gman, Christ has already set us apart. Read the verses you posted. He is the one who set us apart, through faith in him! We don't have to do anything. He has done it all!!!!

I'm not trying to take the higher ground here...

I'm sorry, but that's the impression I'm getting.