"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
Oh? So one should not honour parents, its ok to steal?PaulSacramento wrote:Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.
B. W. wrote:This is in direct context to what you stated and is on topic...Audie wrote:You are simply making statements of facts not in evidence, non responsive to what I said.B. W. wrote:One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it.As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...Audie wrote:...If every single individual cell in the body lives, how can the body actually be dead?
Note the use of the word "clinically" used as a modifier for "dead". And the word "considerable" for the amount of time.
The workings of the human mind are of great interest. The bias involved in assuming that the person is actually "dead" and that what happens with the brain under some circumstances is evidence of a "soul" is not helpful in figuring out what is really going on.
To some spiritual beliefs, one's dreams are if anything, more real than ordinary waking life.
Is that true? What is really going on?
Do you, do I, does anyone know?
Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?
One day, you will find out...
Why wait and delay any longer?
Why bother?
Your question - Do you, do I, does anyone know?
Was answered based upon the empirical evidence that all human beings will face one day - you will die. You cannot escape it, nor can I. This thread's topic is on the afterlife and what happens after one dies. Therefore my response is certainly on topic. You will find out one day Audie - you will and at that time you will not be able to use verbal or written semantics to wiggle out of the final reality you will face.
So I responded appropriately:Many years ago, I held similar views as you. Looking back, I could put most Christians in their their place with logic and reason schemes. However I met a few that I could not shake off because their words were penetrating. One such person once hauntingly said to me: One day, you will find out...B. W. wrote:One day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...
Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?
One day, you will find out...
Why wait and delay any longer?
Another, a new Christian, who was once an atheist, said to me after walking across an intersection, "Bryan, see this, you are at a crossroads, I am heading right towards life (he was heading to a bible study) and you are going left (I was heading to a party). One day, you'll find yourself at another crossroads, make the right turn, will you..."
He then walked off. He recently converted to Christ and was once one of the biggest atheist and badest dude. We used to hang out together. After he became saved, he witnessed to us and we made fun of his faith but stopped because what he had was real. He was a real believer...not a phony.
I met a few folks who challenged my way of thinking that there was no God, no afterlife, no nothing. Like you, I argued against faith never realizing that I had faith in my self as my personal guiding rule. Never realized that the faith I had in myself violated my own arguments against Christian faith proving faith exist and is indispensable to the human condition. In fact, during that time years ago, my own guiding rules convicted me because I could not even live up to my own standards.
Then on day, I drank bad water, died, and by God's grace alone, I was allowed to return and discovered how true Jesus' statement is: ...neither will they be persuaded though one rise form the dead (Luke 16:31 NKJV)
That does not bother me in the least because I now know Jesus and He knows me.
Therefore, one day, Audie, you will know. None of us here reading this can escape it. As I mentioned before to you, Jesus is wooing you to come to him now, just as you are so you find out empirically what He is all about. No other way Audie...
Think of your own words - Do you, do I, does anyone know?
One day, you will find out...
Why wait and delay any longer?
-
-
-
Earlier I noted that "dead" is here defined as "clinically dead".Storyteller wrote:Um, Audie....
I think having died, seen and met Christ and come back B.W probably does know.
So, Moses and various other "prophets' are not to be believed because they didnt (clinically) die, but got a vision whiie they were still (clinically) alive?Storyteller wrote:The fact Smith had a vision rather than dying and actually going to Heaven (or Hell in B.W`s case)
Aha, an important distinction. Scripture's truth stands apart from various interpretations that are faulty. That changes not a bit of its truth. Scholarly TRANSLATIONS of Scripture are by far in agreement as to the original texts.Audie: "Scripture is true"? All of it, every word, and in every interpretation?
But if anyone else said the things that He did, that believed they were GOD, believed they were worthy of worship, made key claims He undoubtedly KNEW would lead to His death, to His followers' deaths if they persisted - ANY such person would have to be mad. UNLESS He was Who He claimed to be. Do you know anything about prophecy, of how NO person could just show up and fulfill so much of it? Read the writings of the Apostles - do they SOUND like crazy people, ones willing to die for a lie they clearly KNEW the truth of?Audie: Never said "Jesus" was crazy or deluded.
If that is what you think, you haven't studied the NT very much! Nor have you much studied it's impact upon society, law, Western Civilization.Audie: Regarding "deep wisdom" what is claimed as his sayings, (verbatim) decades later looks like the folk wisdom of a people. You find the same ideas across many many cultures.
The empire Jesus brought down (radically CHANGED) was one that was once violently against Christianity, that constantly harassed it, killed, beat Christians - even for sport in the arena - changed to one that accepted it - to the point of declaring it the official religion of Rome. Of course, the Emperor was crafty - why not simply try to co-opt it for political gain. Not to mention, Christianity is NOT a "religion." But make no mistake, this would never have happened unless Christianity had exploded in immense numbers, this despite the severe repercussions for those claiming Christ.Audie: J Smith and the "Prophet" M also have made big changes. Jesus did not "bring down and empire". No more than he built the grand coulee dam.
1over137 wrote:Joseph Smith - one prideful guy claiming something https://carm.org/joseph-smith-quotes
Apostles, prophets - all humbly testify of one God
Philip wrote:Audie: "Scripture is true"? All of it, every word, and in every interpretation?Hmm. I need this explained. All reading of anything requires what educators call "decoding", one interprets what he sees on paper. It may be that every bit of the bible is "true" in one sense or another of the word.Aha, an important distinction. Scripture's truth stands apart from various interpretations that are faulty. That changes not a bit of its truth. Scholarly TRANSLATIONS of Scripture are by far in agreement as to the original texts.
A translation is gut one part of the interpretation. IF one had "the original" it still has to be interpreted as to what is meant.
Now, here I am going to be tiresome, but its important to me, as it affects the credibility of what you say about the bible and its truth.
Do you understand the bible to be "true", as in factual, accurate, literal, when it apparently speaks of a world wide flood wiping out all life save for a boatload?
Audie: Never said "Jesus" was crazy or deluded.I dont think we are well qualified to say what is or is not sane, especially from the remove of two millenia.But if anyone else said the things that He did, that believed they were GOD, believed they were worthy of worship, made key claims He undoubtedly KNEW would lead to His death, to His followers' deaths if they persisted - ANY such person would have to be mad. UNLESS He was Who He claimed to be. Do you know anything about prophecy, of how NO person could just show up and fulfill so much of it? Read the writings of the Apostles - do they SOUND like crazy people, ones willing to die for a lie they clearly KNEW the truth of?
Whether or not events actually transpired as recorded is a matter of opinion. My take is that whatever happened was steadily improved upon as time went by after the events.
Audie: Regarding "deep wisdom" what is claimed as his sayings, (verbatim) decades later looks like the folk wisdom of a people. You find the same ideas across many many cultures.If that is what you think, you haven't studied the NT very much! Nor have you much studied it's impact upon society, law, Western Civilization.
Ok... what deep wisdom are you talking about? All of his purported sayings, if read, would take about 2 1/2 minutes.
Audie: J Smith and the "Prophet" M also have made big changes. Jesus did not "bring down and empire". No more than he built the grand coulee dam.The empire stood for another 500 years, hardly brought down. And other than that it stopped killing Christians, it kept up its ways.The empire Jesus brought down (radically CHANGED)
One guy decided ti adopt it as the official religion. LDS has grown enormously despite persecution and, without an emperor imposing it. Nor yet by kings and popes who would torture those who dont take to it.was one that was once violently against Christianity, that constantly harassed it, killed, beat Christians - even for sport in the arena - changed to one that accepted it - to the point of declaring it the official religion of Rome. Of course, the Emperor was crafty - why not simply try to co-opt it for political gain. Not to mention, Christianity is NOT a "religion." But make no mistake, this would never have happened unless Christianity had exploded in immense numbers, this despite the severe repercussions for those claiming Christ
Now, back to the bible being "true".
True or false: it says, and literally means, that there was a world wide flood.
.
The Bible IS true in all it says that is MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS historical or scientific fact. But the problem is that many misunderstand and don't realize that is also has elements that are meant as poetry, are symbolic, allegorical/metaphorical in nature. Just as we speak in such ways, just using different terminology and have different contemporary knowledge, so did those writing Scripture. And just because it is inspired by God doesn't mean it was all meant to be LITERALLY true. It also doesn't mean that if we read of a character doing something in Scripture that this means God approved of it. So, there are important aspects of studying Scripture.Audie: Now, back to the bible being "true". True or false: it says, and literally means, that there was a world wide flood.
Non sequitur.Audie wrote:Oh? So one should not honour parents, its ok to steal?PaulSacramento wrote:Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.
I trust nobody really thinks Jesus is / was a lamb.Philip wrote:The Bible IS true in all it says that is MEANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD AS historical or scientific fact. But the problem is that many misunderstand and don't realize that is also has elements that are meant as poetry, are symbolic, allegorical/metaphorical in nature. Just as we speak in such ways, just using different terminology and have different contemporary knowledge, so did those writing Scripture. And just because it is inspired by God doesn't mean it was all meant to be LITERALLY true. It also doesn't mean that if we read of a character doing something in Scripture that this means God approved of it. So, there are important aspects of studying Scripture.Audie: Now, back to the bible being "true". True or false: it says, and literally means, that there was a world wide flood.
Ah, the flood; the TIME length of days in Genesis. Many Bible scholars can and DO have reasonable disagreements about these things - as the way they are written aren't necessarily what we might think. The "day" issue has been redundantly discussed on this forum. Many Christian Hebrew Scholars don't believe that the text was meant to convey literal days. As for the flood, many scholars also believe that it was a regional flood, as mankind have not yet spread worldwide, and so the "world" that was flooded, covered the extent to which mankind had spread to that point in time.
You were speaking of what is true. The moral code is "true" regardless.PaulSacramento wrote:Non sequitur.Audie wrote:Oh? So one should not honour parents, its ok to steal?PaulSacramento wrote:Let be clear about this, IF Jesus did not resurrect then Christianity is simply not true, period.
You do realize that Christianity is not a "moral code" right?
I mean it HAS a moral code but the Gospel is NOT a moral code.
It is a path to salvation and redemption IN Christ, it is about what Christ DID not what WE do.