The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

[Nessa]

RickD

If God is truly just, can he be unfair?

Maybe someone else wants to chime in, but yes. And I thank God He's not fair. He sent His only begotten son to take upon himself, all the sins of the world. Jesus was without sin, yet he was crucified, and took our sins upon himself.


And since God requires justice for sin, sin was atoned for by one without sin. Unfair justice at its best, through Christ!

so are you saying God can be unjust in his actions?

[Kurieuo]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

Belief in God may not be an extraordinary claim for someone who already believe he exists, but for a skeptic like myself, it is. I did read over your reply to Ed and though doing a good job of describing your views, I didn’t find your claim of a single God as a logical necessary for existence, believable.
Like when you mentioned my claim of the possibility of the physical world always have existing, weather the physical world is contingent or not; you didn’t explain why it is impossible for it to have always existed, and things evolve into what they are now.

The fact you think an explanation is needed as to why it is impossible for the universe to have always existed, shows that you have not read my argument or do not understand. For if matter has always existed, is it not still contingent upon the underlying physical laws determining it?

At the end of the day, it could be stated this way:
The "God" that has always existed and underlies everything else is either intelligent (a who) or unintelligent (a what).
If it is extraordinary to believe one, then so to it is the other.

[RickD]

RickD

If God is truly just, can he be unfair?

Maybe someone else wants to chime in, but yes. And I thank God He's not fair. He sent His only begotten son to take upon himself, all the sins of the world. Jesus was without sin, yet he was crucified, and took our sins upon himself.


And since God requires justice for sin, sin was atoned for by one without sin. Unfair justice at its best, through Christ!

so are you saying God can be unjust in his actions?

No. Absolutely not.

God is just. And His "actions" come from His nature.

[Nessa]

RickD

If God is truly just, can he be unfair?

Maybe someone else wants to chime in, but yes. And I thank God He's not fair. He sent His only begotten son to take upon himself, all the sins of the world. Jesus was without sin, yet he was crucified, and took our sins upon himself.


And since God requires justice for sin, sin was atoned for by one without sin. Unfair justice at its best, through Christ!

so are you saying God can be unjust in his actions?

No. Absolutely not.

God is just. And His "actions" come from His nature.

just
dʒʌst/Submit
adjective
1.
based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

[Kenny]

God is not fair. If he were fair, and we all got what we deserved...well, you know the rest.

You and I drastically disagree on what we deserve.

Ken

[Kenny]

Ken,

How do ultimately define "fair"?

Fair is treatment as is deserved.

Ken

[RickD]

RickD

If God is truly just, can he be unfair?

Maybe someone else wants to chime in, but yes. And I thank God He's not fair. He sent His only begotten son to take upon himself, all the sins of the world. Jesus was without sin, yet he was crucified, and took our sins upon himself.


And since God requires justice for sin, sin was atoned for by one without sin. Unfair justice at its best, through Christ!

so are you saying God can be unjust in his actions?

No. Absolutely not.

God is just. And His "actions" come from His nature.

just
dʒʌst/Submit
adjective
1.
based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

Nessa,
Does this help?

Or this?

[RickD]

God is not fair. If he were fair, and we all got what we deserved...well, you know the rest.

You and I drastically disagree on what we deserve.

Ken

That's just your subjective opinion.

[Kenny]

Ken,

How do ultimately define "fair" what makes you think that your 'fair' is really 'fair'?

Are you asking Kenny, or me?

Sorry, forgot to put name.. meant kenny

I'm just interested where the idea of fairness for him ultimately comes from

Why should life be fair?

Seems to me if God is omnibenevolent, he has to be fair.

Ken

[RickD]

Ken,

How do ultimately define "fair" what makes you think that your 'fair' is really 'fair'?

Are you asking Kenny, or me?

Sorry, forgot to put name.. meant kenny

I'm just interested where the idea of fairness for him ultimately comes from

Why should life be fair?

Seems to me if God is omnibenevolent, he has to be fair.

Ken

Kenny,
See the two links I posted above, to why God isn't fair.

[Kenny]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

Belief in God may not be an extraordinary claim for someone who already believe he exists, but for a skeptic like myself, it is. I did read over your reply to Ed and though doing a good job of describing your views, I didn’t find your claim of a single God as a logical necessary for existence, believable.
Like when you mentioned my claim of the possibility of the physical world always have existing, weather the physical world is contingent or not; you didn’t explain why it is impossible for it to have always existed, and things evolve into what they are now.

Ken

OK then,tell us about something in our world that did not have a cause,was caused but not by something else and was not willed into existence?Think about this,I'm serious,I'm not trying to one up you,etc.I'm just trying to get you to realize how hard it is and how much faith it requires to reject an all a powerful creator in order to somehow imagine everything in our world happening in a way that defies reality.It is much much harder to believe what you do,now I know you'll try to deny I know what you assume by rejecting God,but the difference is I have a very good reason to believe God created the universe because I know the facts of reality and you are defying reality.

Nothing ever happens without a cause and all things that are caused were caused by something else and they are willed into existence,but yet you are rejecting this for no reason.Because it is then impossible to have a universe if you reject God,there is nothing in our world to go by to defy this fact,nothing except imagination.Science cannot help you either which atheists tend to believe woo woo science that was developed by ignoring philosophy,the same thing you're doing because of it.

It is much much harder to believe things that you do to reject God who can create universes easy.

If everything you say about God is as logical, and obvious as you claim, how does this logic escape some of the greatest scientific minds on earth? In other words; what is it that YOU know that they don't'?

Ken

[Kenny]

The way you put "since I can't lack belief" seems amiss...

But, nonetheless, my belief would lean with Ed.
Besides being Atheist, he's given my no reason to consider him a liar.

Yeah I see your point; to assume Ken has Ice cream in his freezer is easy.
Now that I look at it, that was a very flawed question I asked you; it doesn’t apply very well with questions about the existence of God. I think it goes back to the ole claim “extraordinary claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence”.

If the claim is that Kenny has Ice cream at his home, that is easy to accept; you would even be willing to take Ed’s word for it. But if Ed told you that Ken has a Dinosaur at his home; now his word is no longer sufficient; you are going to require much more evidence to support that claim because the Dinosaur claim is an extraordinary claim; Ice cream is not. To the Atheist, God is an extraordinary claim as well

Ken

If you read my last reply to Ed, and understand it...
Belief in God really isn't an extraordinary claim at all, but rather there is a logical necessity that needs explaining.

Belief in God may not be an extraordinary claim for someone who already believe he exists, but for a skeptic like myself, it is. I did read over your reply to Ed and though doing a good job of describing your views, I didn’t find your claim of a single God as a logical necessary for existence, believable.
Like when you mentioned my claim of the possibility of the physical world always have existing, weather the physical world is contingent or not; you didn’t explain why it is impossible for it to have always existed, and things evolve into what they are now.

The fact you think an explanation is needed as to why it is impossible for the universe to have always existed, shows that you have not read my argument or do not understand. For if matter has always existed, is it not still contingent upon the underlying physical laws determining it?

Perhaps I didn't understand. If matter has always existed, and the physical laws it is contingent on have always existed, why is this impossible?

Ken

[RickD]

Able wrote:
It is much much harder to believe things that you do to reject God who can create universes easy.

kenny wrote:

If everything you say about God is as logical, and obvious as you claim, how does this logic escape some of the greatest scientific minds on earth? In other words; what is it that YOU know that they don't'?

Ken

The Gap Theory....obviously!

[neo-x]

People don't believe in God, because it makes sense, or there should be a logic to it, that is the most driest and academic sort of belief their is which a philosopher like Anthony Flew could have for sure and I have no objections but everyday folk, who don't know or gave a mind about philosophy will have zero tangents running into God because it should "make sense". Sure it should, but that is NOT ENOUGH. Just because there is a logic that God should exist doesn't necessarily means one does.

People come to God when they experience him. That is why we have the church to show love and the gospel to evangelize. And thank God for that. Imagine if all we had to do was to tell people, believe in Jesus because it makes sense, well the hell it doesn't. Who would want to believe in someone who died 2000 years ago, whom they have never seen, experienced or heard. Its equal to someone asking me to believe in Muhammad, or Buddha. I don't know these guys.

And that is what I believe our faith separates us from. Because we believe that unlike Muhammad and Buddha, Jesus Christ we believe still can touch human lives, through the holy spirit, through the church and most importantly through personal revelation.

So sorry, but what are you guys expecting? Do you honestly expect someone to agree that God exists because the second law of thermodynamics require it to be? Or that pascal's wager points that way?

Faith comes by hearing God. Not just logic or good sense or philosophy or whatever. I know you all mean really well, you are doing it with the best of intentions but my friends, I only see you quibbling about something you can never get a result from, even if you are right.

It only happens from the inside and when it does happen there is no stopping it.

I apologize if its offensive what I wrote, I don't mean to insult anyone's efforts here but really, I don't see the logic or sense or "God is abundantly clear, we just need to accept it". God is not abundantly clear and that is no reason why anyone ever should just come to Christ. Its salvation what brings anyone to the cross not mere curiosity with no roots.

I would never believe or would have believed in Christ because of good sense of logic. It was an actual intervention, something that happened in my life which stunned me, God did something, is probably the right wording to use here, which changed me. God took the first step, in his infinite love and mercy towards me and I believe towards us all. We can't really sort all these things in our head, can we now? When it happened, it was like a train wrecked into all that I believed or held in unbelief. It broke the foundations of my logic and reasoning on which I had held that God didn't exist. It was love, that reached out to me, not the other way around.

One way or another, God finds his way around us. If he had been that clear to everyone, like Paul mentions in Romans, why did Paul ever went to evangelize in the first place? Because it was never that clear after all.

[neo-x]

Able wrote:
It is much much harder to believe things that you do to reject God who can create universes easy.

kenny wrote:

If everything you say about God is as logical, and obvious as you claim, how does this logic escape some of the greatest scientific minds on earth? In other words; what is it that YOU know that they don't'?

Ken

The Gap Theory....obviously!

By far the best post in this thread.