Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Philip »

What, Ken, did you get a new bong for Christmas?
Ken: How do you know there are no other possibilities? Nobody knows enough about dark matter or dark energy to say what is possible.
Well, it either CAME from something, some source, or it always existed - right? It could not create itself, because there would have been NOTHING to create it. It was either created/came from some other source that traces back to something eternal OR that dark matter itself was eternal. Can you tell me of any other possibility? Just ONE, Ken, that's all I'm asking. This is Logic 101. You suggest there might be some infinite number of possibilities for a thing's existence. But it's either THE first thing - meaning it is eternal, OR, it is a SUBSEQUENT thing that came from something else, which was either the first eternal thing or itself a subsequent thing that also came from something else. At the end of the day, there had to be a first thing that was eternal. Can't you see that?

Prior to the Big Bang, NOTHING physical in the universe existed. OK, singularity - is basically indescribable, except to say that no matter, time, space, or dimension existed prior to the Big Bang beginning. And yet the singularity itself either had a source or itself was eternal, unfathomably intelligent and powerful. Please, give me ANY other options that you can think of as for the source of Singularity. Science doesn't know because the eggheads have been arguing a century over what singularity actually was, of what possible source it might have. Science measures and analyzes THINGS. Talking about scientific theories is a scientific endeavor, but it's no more than wild speculation when it comes to singularity's source, it's power, its ability to produce unfathomable power, design and unbelievably fine-tuned functionality.

Just one other option, Ken.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by zacchaeus »

God created math. Here's the issue, if nothing created us all- why does math matter? Or why is math anything? How could nothing be so smart to create order out of chaos, the crazy complicated fully comprehending conscious homosapian, that would discover, learn, and teach a numerical system to help aid the structure of society's in the world? Ridiculous... But if GOD... If HE 'created' the heavens and the earth than ALL things are possible- with God.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Kenny »

Philip wrote:What, Ken, did you get a new bong for Christmas?
Ken: How do you know there are no other possibilities? Nobody knows enough about dark matter or dark energy to say what is possible.
Philip wrote:Well, it either CAME from something, some source, or it always existed - right? It could not create itself, because there would have been NOTHING to create it. It was either created/came from some other source that traces back to something eternal OR that dark matter itself was eternal. Can you tell me of any other possibility? Just ONE, Ken, that's all I'm asking. This is Logic 101. You suggest there might be some infinite number of possibilities for a thing's existence. But it's either THE first thing - meaning it is eternal, OR, it is a SUBSEQUENT thing that came from something else, which was either the first eternal thing or itself a subsequent thing that also came from something else. At the end of the day, there had to be a first thing that was eternal. Can't you see that?
You also said non-physical, supremely powerful and intelligent, purposeful, and stand outside of time (whatever that means) space, matter and dimension. Remember?
Philip wrote:Prior to the Big Bang, NOTHING physical in the universe existed. OK, singularity - is basically indescribable, except to say that no matter, time, space, or dimension existed prior to the Big Bang beginning.
Now you are speculating again. The singularity existed prior to the Big Bang. How do you know matter, time, space, or dimension didn’t exist within the singularity?
Philip wrote:And yet the singularity itself either had a source or itself was eternal, unfathomably intelligent and powerful. Please, give me ANY other options that you can think of as for the source of Singularity. Science doesn't know because the eggheads have been arguing a century over what singularity actually was, of what possible source it might have. Science measures and analyzes THINGS. Talking about scientific theories is a scientific endeavor, but it's no more than wild speculation when it comes to singularity's source, it's power, its ability to produce unfathomable power, design and unbelievably fine-tuned functionality.

Just one other option, Ken.
Okay; here’s one; the matter that made up the singularity always existed in one form or another, and is neither powerful, intelligent, or purposeful, yet exists within time, space, matter, and dimension.



Ken
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Philip »

You also said non-physical, supremely powerful and intelligent, purposeful, and stand outside of time (whatever that means) space, matter and dimension. Remember?
Absolutely, a derivative cannot have more power or intelligence than its source; it cannot do more than it was given capability, design and programming.
Philip wrote:
Prior to the Big Bang, NOTHING physical in the universe existed. OK, singularity - is basically indescribable, except to say that no matter, time, space, or dimension existed prior to the Big Bang beginning.
Ken: Now you are speculating again. The singularity existed prior to the Big Bang. How do you know matter, time, space, or dimension didn’t exist within the singularity?
Science asserts these things did not yet exist. But the bigger issue is that either that singularity was caused and a subsequent derivative of some other eternal first source, or it was eternal.
Philip wrote:
And yet the singularity itself either had a source or itself was eternal, unfathomably intelligent and powerful. Please, give me ANY other options that you can think of as for the source of Singularity. Science doesn't know because the eggheads have been arguing a century over what singularity actually was, of what possible source it might have. Science measures and analyzes THINGS. Talking about scientific theories is a scientific endeavor, but it's no more than wild speculation when it comes to singularity's source, it's power, its ability to produce unfathomable power, design and unbelievably fine-tuned functionality.

Just one other option, Ken.
Ken:Okay; here’s one; the matter that made up the singularity always existed in one form or another, and is neither powerful, intelligent, or purposeful, yet exists within time, space, matter, and dimension.
Ken, what sprang from that singularity is of such unfathable design and function, from the galactic level down to the microscopic, that we scarcely understand more than a tiny portion of it. NO supercomputer built by man is remotely close to the intricate design and functionality of a simple cell. From that singularity sprang immense, incomprehensible intelligent design and function, not to mention unfathomable power and scale of its reach. So, either this eternally existing singularity or some related, eternal, and prior component had its incredible sophistication and power. Bottom line, SOME eternal, incredibly powerful entity is responsible for all that exists.

Sorry about the bong comment. :roll:
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by RickD »

Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:That was Story, who apparently was saying that god could make 1x3 =8.

My take is that math exists entirely apart from anyone or anything.
So, math is eternal, preexisting everything, and exists on its own?
I dont know what time is, nor do you.

I alresdy said what I meant.

Avoiding and ducking questions again. Same old same old.
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24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Audie »

Philip wrote:
Math is an applied science, developed by man, to measure and quantify things that already exist. Which came first, the things requiring measurement and quantification or the technical application of a developed science designed to measure those things? The science and disciplines of applied mathematics should not be confused with things they can be used to measure and quantify. Show me even simple calculus techniques that are much older than 2,000 years old. FAR more sophistication came later. And does the techniques of a non-existing applied science even matter before there were people having need to measure things already existing?

These users liked the post of Philip :
Audie

Later:
Philip wrote:
Math is an applied science, developed by man, to measure and quantify things that already exist. Which came first, the things requiring measurement and quantification or the technical application of a developed science designed to measure those things? The science and disciplines of applied mathematics should not be confused with things they can be used to measure and quantify. Show me even simple calculus techniques that are much older than 2,000 years old. FAR more sophistication came later. And does the techniques of a non-existing applied science even matter before there were people having need to measure things already existing?

Audie: Nonsense.
Oh, yeah, Binary thinking would be BOTH - you like it AND you find it nonsense! :pound:
As another pointed out, there are more possibilities than you entertain. The "like" and "quote" are side
by side. I touched the wrong one first.

It was, of course, a nice post. :D
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:No one lives in a bubble and everything we believe in or choose not to believe, affects our view on everything else to one degree or another.

One can not disassociate something like theism or atheism from how they view the world.
Not entirely, but then, do you believe in nessie? How much does annessism affect your view of the world?

Do you not feel that the existence of god is the central concept of all reality?
Whatever you choose to believe or not believe, affects your worldview, always.
So how would you characterize the effect that anessieism has on your worldview? Is it different from the effect of abotboyism?

And...

I DONT "CHOOSE" TO BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE. If you are into self deception fine. I cant fool myself by deciding to be a batboyist.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting you have no choice as to what you believe in ??
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by RickD »

Audie wrote:
Philip wrote:
Math is an applied science, developed by man, to measure and quantify things that already exist. Which came first, the things requiring measurement and quantification or the technical application of a developed science designed to measure those things? The science and disciplines of applied mathematics should not be confused with things they can be used to measure and quantify. Show me even simple calculus techniques that are much older than 2,000 years old. FAR more sophistication came later. And does the techniques of a non-existing applied science even matter before there were people having need to measure things already existing?

These users liked the post of Philip :
Audie

Later:
Philip wrote:
Math is an applied science, developed by man, to measure and quantify things that already exist. Which came first, the things requiring measurement and quantification or the technical application of a developed science designed to measure those things? The science and disciplines of applied mathematics should not be confused with things they can be used to measure and quantify. Show me even simple calculus techniques that are much older than 2,000 years old. FAR more sophistication came later. And does the techniques of a non-existing applied science even matter before there were people having need to measure things already existing?

Audie: Nonsense.
Oh, yeah, Binary thinking would be BOTH - you like it AND you find it nonsense! :pound:
As another pointed out, there are more possibilities than you entertain. The "like" and "quote" are side
by side. I touched the wrong one first.

It was, of course, a nice post. :D
Drat! Foiled by the fake "like" again! :pound:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Storyteller »

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
Philip wrote:
Math is an applied science, developed by man, to measure and quantify things that already exist. Which came first, the things requiring measurement and quantification or the technical application of a developed science designed to measure those things? The science and disciplines of applied mathematics should not be confused with things they can be used to measure and quantify. Show me even simple calculus techniques that are much older than 2,000 years old. FAR more sophistication came later. And does the techniques of a non-existing applied science even matter before there were people having need to measure things already existing?

These users liked the post of Philip :
Audie

Later:
Philip wrote:
Math is an applied science, developed by man, to measure and quantify things that already exist. Which came first, the things requiring measurement and quantification or the technical application of a developed science designed to measure those things? The science and disciplines of applied mathematics should not be confused with things they can be used to measure and quantify. Show me even simple calculus techniques that are much older than 2,000 years old. FAR more sophistication came later. And does the techniques of a non-existing applied science even matter before there were people having need to measure things already existing?

Audie: Nonsense.
Oh, yeah, Binary thinking would be BOTH - you like it AND you find it nonsense! :pound:
As another pointed out, there are more possibilities than you entertain. The "like" and "quote" are side
by side. I touched the wrong one first.

It was, of course, a nice post. :D
Drat! Foiled by the fake "like" again! :pound:

Oops!

Sorry, wrong button. Was aiming for the "like" button.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Audie »

PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:No one lives in a bubble and everything we believe in or choose not to believe, affects our view on everything else to one degree or another.

One can not disassociate something like theism or atheism from how they view the world.
Not entirely, but then, do you believe in nessie? How much does annessism affect your view of the world?

Do you not feel that the existence of god is the central concept of all reality?
Whatever you choose to believe or not believe, affects your worldview, always.
So how would you characterize the effect that anessieism has on your worldview? Is it different from the effect of abotboyism?

And...

I DONT "CHOOSE" TO BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE. If you are into self deception fine. I cant fool myself by deciding to be a batboyist.

I'm sorry, are you suggesting you have no choice as to what you believe in ??
Hmm, Interesting way to turn it around. Had not looked at it that way.

Possibly so, I believe the sun is hot and bright, that getting hit by a car is quite painful. Can you choose not to so believe?
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Audie »

RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:
RickD wrote:
Audie wrote:That was Story, who apparently was saying that god could make 1x3 =8.

My take is that math exists entirely apart from anyone or anything.
So, math is eternal, preexisting everything, and exists on its own?
I dont know what time is, nor do you.

I alresdy said what I meant.

Avoiding and ducking questions again. Same old same old.
I am not one to avoid or duck. I thought the complaint was more that I am too confrontational.

IF you or someone else does know what time is, then the discussion of the things that elicited that response can proceed.

And I did say what I meant. Also, meant what I said.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by Audie »

Kenny wrote:
Philip wrote:What, Ken, did you get a new bong for Christmas?
Ken: How do you know there are no other possibilities? Nobody knows enough about dark matter or dark energy to say what is possible.
Philip wrote:Well, it either CAME from something, some source, or it always existed - right? It could not create itself, because there would have been NOTHING to create it. It was either created/came from some other source that traces back to something eternal OR that dark matter itself was eternal. Can you tell me of any other possibility? Just ONE, Ken, that's all I'm asking. This is Logic 101. You suggest there might be some infinite number of possibilities for a thing's existence. But it's either THE first thing - meaning it is eternal, OR, it is a SUBSEQUENT thing that came from something else, which was either the first eternal thing or itself a subsequent thing that also came from something else. At the end of the day, there had to be a first thing that was eternal. Can't you see that?
You also said non-physical, supremely powerful and intelligent, purposeful, and stand outside of time (whatever that means) space, matter and dimension. Remember?
Philip wrote:Prior to the Big Bang, NOTHING physical in the universe existed. OK, singularity - is basically indescribable, except to say that no matter, time, space, or dimension existed prior to the Big Bang beginning.
Now you are speculating again. The singularity existed prior to the Big Bang. How do you know matter, time, space, or dimension didn’t exist within the singularity?
Philip wrote:And yet the singularity itself either had a source or itself was eternal, unfathomably intelligent and powerful. Please, give me ANY other options that you can think of as for the source of Singularity. Science doesn't know because the eggheads have been arguing a century over what singularity actually was, of what possible source it might have. Science measures and analyzes THINGS. Talking about scientific theories is a scientific endeavor, but it's no more than wild speculation when it comes to singularity's source, it's power, its ability to produce unfathomable power, design and unbelievably fine-tuned functionality.

Just one other option, Ken.
Okay; here’s one; the matter that made up the singularity always existed in one form or another, and is neither powerful, intelligent, or purposeful, yet exists within time, space, matter, and dimension.



Ken
Our local little "big bang" may be but one of an infinite number of them.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Our local little "big bang" may be but one of an infinite number of them.
The "Big Bang" was what set in motion/expanded the UNIVERSE, not our solar system or galaxy.
By definition, it was the beginning of our universe so there were no others.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by PaulSacramento »

Audie wrote:
Possibly so, I believe the sun is hot and bright, that getting hit by a car is quite painful. Can you choose not to so believe?
I refuse to believe that you don't understand this conversation and the degrees there are of how we believe or choose not to believe things.
I think you are being hard headed about the very simple fact that we CHOOSE as to whether we believe something or not.
And I am not sure WHy you are being this way.

We choose to believe that the people in our lives love us ( as an example) based on the evidence we have for that ( how they treat us for example). We choose to believe that, using your example) getting hit by a car will hurt ( even if we have never been hit by one) because the evidence that it will hurt is reasonable to us.
Yes, a person can choose NOT to believe that getting hit will hurt us, but that would go against reason based on what we know about us and cars.
Point being, quite simply, everything we believe is a choice that we make to believe.
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Re: Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

Post by zacchaeus »

I just lay on the wayside.
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