Evidence for God from Science

crochet1949 wrote:Sometimes Biblical truth , when it obviously contradicts other belief systems, isn't appreciated. But when there is eternal life at stake -- it's important To take a Stand for it -- the Truth.

And, yes, I Did see your comment "according to the Catholic Church".

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

For God So Loved the World
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

RickD wrote:Ok. But just for the record, you brought up assurance, not me.

RickD wrote:I was trying to avoid it because when you and I talk about it, I know it ends the conversation.

RickD wrote:If I say, "the body of Christ is all believers who trust Christ", then would you agree?

RickD wrote:So, if you'll humor me, according to the Catholic Church, what must one do to be saved?

RickD wrote:Paul,

On that thought, Catholicism teaches that baptism is a work, in the context that God is doing the work of baptism. So, that makes baptism part of faith, not a work of man.(correct me if I'm mistaken)

How they get around the fact that man is doing the baptism in water, in order to say that it's not a work in that sense, I'm not sure. Maybe the baptizer is a representative of Christ?

Kinda like how the magesterium can pronounce things as ex cathedra ?

RickD wrote:Paul,

On that thought, Catholicism teaches that baptism is a work, in the context that God is doing the work of baptism. So, that makes baptism part of faith, not a work of man.(correct me if I'm mistaken)

How they get around the fact that man is doing the baptism in water, in order to say that it's not a work in that sense, I'm not sure. Maybe the baptizer is a representative of Christ?

Kinda like how the magesterium can pronounce things as ex cathedra ?

Crochet: Philip -- very well put. But I would like to comment on sprinkle vs immersion -- an important subject -- baptism by immersion is practiced in the New Testament -- it is to show Publically the personal decision that a person has already made in their heart regarding their accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. No saving value in it. Sprinkling is done to infants with no ability to make that decision.

philip:
infants don't understand their sin, don't understand or know the Gospel, can't choose to have faith in what they do not yet know, nor have the ability to respond to. So baptizing an infant - whether with a sprinkle or by being tossed in a pool - will not save that child.

No one can do for another human being what he must only do himself

philip: ... infants don't understand their sin, don't understand or know the Gospel, can't choose to have faith in what they do not yet know, nor have the ability to respond to. So baptizing an infant - whether with a sprinkle or by being tossed in a pool - will not save that child.

Essential: so two questions here ...
#1 who does the baptizing in your / any baptismal need ... scenario ?

Philip: No one can do for another human being what he must only do himself

Essential: #2 where do the babies who never get to Hear, understand and believe the Gospel message, and have faith in Christ. Period! end up after death?

crochet1949 wrote:The comment was made that if a person Wants to be baptized but Can't that That 'desire' will be enough to satisfy God. Well -- good desires won't get a person their salvation.

philip:
My belief, and while not explicit, is there is good Scriptural evidence to suggest that children before an understanding of the Gospel, of their sin, of God's directive to believe/have faith in Jesus, cannot do these things. And so God doesn't demand of children (or the severely mentally handicapped, etc.) that which they cannot intellectually understand and thus cannot do. And so, I believe, if they die as children without such understandings, that they go to be with the Lord - and they may still in fact have to acknowledge and accept Jesus when made aware, or maybe they are merely saved by the Lord. Again, ADULTS whom were baptized as children, but yet who still lack faith in Christ, are just as dead in their sins as any other unbeliever. If mere BAPTISM saved, one could believe anything or nothing, and they would eternally be just fine. But that is not what Scripture teaches.