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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:48 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:I have said over and over that here is NO SCRIPTURE that states that the sons of god are fallen angels, how many more times do I have to say it ?
As a matter of fact, there is no mention of the term "fallen angel".
Not sure how you can say that I don't understand what a fallen angel is, have you been reading ANY of my posts?
At BEST we can get the implication of a "fallen angel" from passages that speak of divine beings rebelling against god:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fallen_angels
Nowhere do you find the title or term that equal "fallen angel" in the OT or NT.
It may be Implied in some passages, yes, but is not explicit.
So, for the last time:
Sons of God does NOT mean fallen angel and to make things as clear as possible:
One MAY associate fallen angels with sons of god ONLY in passages that imply rebellion by sons of god and ONLY when sons of god implies divine beings which MAY or MAY NOT BE the case in Genesis 6.
Is that better?
As clear as mud.
NOW as for Pslam 82 and if referring to fallen angels, the verse is:
God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”[a]
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!
If sons of God refers to divine beings ( and since God is in His place- heaven- in the midst of them, that means they ar ein heaven, so they are divine beings) and divine beings are angels ( not sure of anyone that will dispute that divine beings from heaven are called angels) and God says they will "die like men and FALL" ( verse 6-7), then one can deduce that some angels are fallen and these fallen angels were called sons of God.
Psalms 82, is almost universally understood as talking about human kings and or rulers. Frankly, I have no idea how or why you think it's talking about angels.
Oh yes, of course it is viewed that way, I know that.
Consensus doesn't mean it's right though, we all know that.
Now, I am NOT saying that my view is right, simply that it is a viable interpretation.
First time I heard about was second year theology class when a lecturer brought it up ( we were discussing alternate interpretations of passages).
I looked into it and read a few articles from some different scholars and there are some valid points as to why they can be divine beings or why they are human rulers/judges.
It should be noted that the issues brought up in regards to this passage being about humans, aren't ever addressed in the rebuttals ( such as how are human rulers in heaven? why is dying like humans an issue?)
Also, while THIS passage as interpreted as such, helps explain Isaiah, Peter and Jude, how are those passages explained OUTSIDE the context of divine beings doing bad things?
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:57 am
by PaulSacramento
According to Edersheim, Jesus is contrasting human rulers who are called "gods" because they exercise delegated authority through the word of God, with Jesus, "the Son of God" who was sent into the world by the Father to do the works of the Father.
Yep, that is what Edersheim and others have stated, but are they right?
Perhaps.
But here is the thing:
You have Jesus being accused of blasphemy, of making Himself equal to God in the gospel that is the most Christological of them all. His counter to claiming to be one with God is to quote Psalm 82.
Now, IF that verse is about human people called sons of God then what is Jesus saying?
According to this view, simply that He claiming to be son of God is fine because anyone can be a son of god as long as the Word of God comes to them. No a very big statement from someone that claimed to be I AM.
Now, contrasting those human rulers that were called sons of god with Him being the true son of God is fine since he is saying" if those guys are called Son of God, then I can call myself that, even more so !".
The problem with that is that the theology of the GOJ doesn't really play out that way, it is more concrete and more direct, I mean He is called GOD,period.
Don't get me wrong, I can see the reasoning behind this view IF the people from the second temple saw Psalm 82 as being about human rulers and judges BUT the problem with that is that the writings we have from that time period don't tell us that.
They tell us that those people viewed those passages differently.
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:04 am
by RickD
Is the term translated as "sons of God" in Genesis 6, even used in Psalms 82?
If not, why is Psalms 82 even being discussed?
Why is Psalms 82 relevant to the argument that "sons of God" can possibly mean fallen angels?
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:08 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:Is the term translated as "sons of God" in Genesis 6, even used in Psalms 82?
If not, why is Psalms 82 even being discussed?
Why is Psalms 82 relevant to the argument that "sons of God" can possibly mean fallen angels?
Fair enough, we kind of went out on a tangent.
I think it was when I cite passages in which sons of god could be interpreted as "divine beings".
When I was addressing the issue of passages like those from Isaiah, Peter and Jude ( even Paul) that state that divine beings HAVE been judged and WILL be judged for what they have done.
I was trying to point out what MAY have been the bad deeds they have done to be judged.
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:45 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:Is the term translated as "sons of God" in Genesis 6, even used in Psalms 82?
If not, why is Psalms 82 even being discussed?
Why is Psalms 82 relevant to the argument that "sons of God" can possibly mean fallen angels?
Fair enough, we kind of went out on a tangent.
I think it was when I cite passages in which sons of god could be interpreted as "divine beings".
When I was addressing the issue of passages like those from Isaiah, Peter and Jude ( even Paul) that state that divine beings HAVE been judged and WILL be judged for what they have done.
I was trying to point out what MAY have been the bad deeds they have done to be judged.
But nobody here is arguing against "sons of God" being interpreted as divine beings. We all acknowledge that, depending on context, it can mean humans or angels/divine beings.
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:24 am
by PaulSacramento
RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:Is the term translated as "sons of God" in Genesis 6, even used in Psalms 82?
If not, why is Psalms 82 even being discussed?
Why is Psalms 82 relevant to the argument that "sons of God" can possibly mean fallen angels?
Fair enough, we kind of went out on a tangent.
I think it was when I cite passages in which sons of god could be interpreted as "divine beings".
When I was addressing the issue of passages like those from Isaiah, Peter and Jude ( even Paul) that state that divine beings HAVE been judged and WILL be judged for what they have done.
I was trying to point out what MAY have been the bad deeds they have done to be judged.
But nobody here is arguing against "sons of God" being interpreted as divine beings. We all acknowledge that, depending on context, it can mean humans or angels/divine beings.
I know that, and I assume that, considering how many times I have said it, that you realize that I agree that the sons of god in genesis 6 does NOT explicit mean "fallen angels" and that my point is that there is enough evidence to warrant it meaning "divine beings" AS WELL as humans of some special lineage.
My extended point is that IF it means divine beings in that context that this does address some issues that are brought up later on ( the sins of mentioned by Peter and Jude for example) and also expands on the possibility that the nations were given to divine beings to rule and why they would be judged for this mis-ruling of those nations.
Anyways, I think we have run the race on this one.
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:48 am
by RickD
PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:RickD wrote:Is the term translated as "sons of God" in Genesis 6, even used in Psalms 82?
If not, why is Psalms 82 even being discussed?
Why is Psalms 82 relevant to the argument that "sons of God" can possibly mean fallen angels?
Fair enough, we kind of went out on a tangent.
I think it was when I cite passages in which sons of god could be interpreted as "divine beings".
When I was addressing the issue of passages like those from Isaiah, Peter and Jude ( even Paul) that state that divine beings HAVE been judged and WILL be judged for what they have done.
I was trying to point out what MAY have been the bad deeds they have done to be judged.
But nobody here is arguing against "sons of God" being interpreted as divine beings. We all acknowledge that, depending on context, it can mean humans or angels/divine beings.
I know that, and I assume that, considering how many times I have said it, that you realize that I agree that the sons of god in genesis 6 does NOT explicit mean "fallen angels" and that my point is that there is enough evidence to warrant it meaning "divine beings" AS WELL as humans of some special lineage.
My extended point is that IF it means divine beings in that context that this does address some issues that are brought up later on ( the sins of mentioned by Peter and Jude for example) and also expands on the possibility that the nations were given to divine beings to rule and why they would be judged for this mis-ruling of those nations.
Anyways, I think we have run the race on this one.
Paul,
I believe I'm using "angels" in the same context you are using "divine beings". They mean the same thing. And my point is that if "sons of God" in Genesis 6 is referring to angels/divine beings, then it would HAVE TO BE REFERRING TO THE FALLEN TYPE OF ANGEL, OR DIVINE BEING! You can't avoid that point. They cannot be angels/divine beings that still serve God, otherwise they wouldn't have sinned with women, as the theory goes.
Do you understand that?
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:54 am
by PaulSacramento
Yes, I would agree with that.
I would agree that the divine beings /angels that sinned and were imprisoned ( Jude and Peter) would be considered "fallen".
That the divine beings to be judged for their "maladministration" of the nations, would be "fallen".
That The Devil would be a "fallen" angel.
None of that means that the term sons of god means "fallen angels", no more than morningstar refers solely to Satan ( since Christ is called morningstar, since other divine beings are called morningstars).
We seem to be talking about two different things here.
I see sons of God as divine beings ( under the right context), regardless of their state ( fallen or not).
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:55 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I can see the reasoning behind this view IF the people from the second temple saw Psalm 82 as being about human rulers and judges BUT the problem with that is that the writings we have from that time period don't tell us that.
For me the Gospel of John is extremely relevant because Jesus is giving his interpretation regarding who are being called "gods" in Psalm 82.
"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came"
Who does the word of God tell to...
"Vindicate the weak and fatherless"
Who does the word of God tell to...
"Do justice to the afflicted and destitute."
Who does the word of God tell to...
"Rescue the weak and needy"
Who does the word of God tell to...
"Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked."
The word of God does not provide this instruction to angels.
The word of God provides this instruction to human rulers.
Since Jesus speaks directly to the identity of those who are referred to as "gods" in Psalm 82:6, I take Jesus' statement as definitive.
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:00 am
by PaulSacramento
The word of God does not provide this instruction to angels.
Does not God instruct His Angels ??
Is not Christ God ??
IF the nations were given over to the sons of God and these were divine beings, would Jesus not have given them these orders?
What passage stats that the NATIONS of the world were given over to Israeli rulers and judges?
Can't be the ones that reference the division of nations at Babel since Israel did NOT exist yet.
I am not sure about what you wrote there...
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:17 am
by B. W.
SoCalExile wrote:B. W. wrote:P.S. The word spelled in Hebrew, נשׁים - pronounced as nâshı̂ym - translated as wives in Gen 6:2 is used in that spelling 55 times in 53 verses in the OT. It is most often used to mean: women however denoting childbearing women more than it is translated as wives. Also, when it is translated as wives it denotes childbearing women such as concubines - for example - to give King David more children. Or so aspect of childbearing, rearing, or past that time.
Since context of Chapter six is about birthing - then it stands that the meaning of word wives in Gen 6:2 should read childbearing women and not wives.
Gen 6:18 and Gen 2:23 spellings are more in line to be translated as Wife, wives than not.
Just saying....
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Doesn't prove the angel-hybrid theory. All theories on this passage teach that children were born, the argument is over whether those kids had angelic ancestry or were born of a mixture of the holy (people of faith) and profane (people of disbelief).
Neither does the Sethite view prove that the Nephilim were humans mixing with another race of human beings who bore the mark of Cain which makes Cain's line technically another race that God caused.
Yes, God caused the Mark of Cain and for the later derived 3rd century AD Sethite view to be true then God caused problem. Ponder that...
Angelic view is that Fallen angels, watchers, somehow messed with Human, Plant, and Animal DNA and corrupted the entire earth due to Genetic Modification just as evidence points out in the Books of Jasher, Enoch, Philo's History, and Josephus, etc all mention as well as the traditional view held way before the 3rd Century AD.
Suggest people kindly get off the must-have-sexual-intercourse to make a race of supermen from a corrupted line of humans who bore the mark of Cain Gen 4:15 (which makes God clearly guilty and responsible for making the race of Nephilim). Try thinking for a change and try thinking outside the box for a change. Folks need to get over the human obsession with sex as the only way to make females pregnant. Our own human science has disproven that idea.
What of the science of the fallen angels - should not that be factor in?
Is Satan more or less cunning/intelligent than Human beings - what does the bible say about that?
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:21 am
by DBowling
PaulSacramento wrote:The word of God does not provide this instruction to angels.
Does not God instruct His Angels ??
The "this instruction" I was referring to above was the following from Psalm 82.
"Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked."
Do you agree with me that Scripture (the word of God) never gives this specific instruction to angels?
Do you agree with me that Scripture (the word of God) does give this specific instruction to human rulers?
Is not Christ God ??
Jesus Christ is most definitely God
IF the nations were given over to the sons of God and these were divine beings, would Jesus not have given them these orders?
Deut 32:8 NASB says
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the sons of Israel.
As I noted earlier in this thread
I don't believe that Deut 32 claims that the nations were given over to the sons of Israel... or sons of God for that matter.
I think the text is telling us that the number of the nations in Gen 10-11 corresponds to the number of the "sons of Israel" in Exodus 1:5.
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:24 am
by B. W.
Next, the phrase, Sons of God, is used many different ways and does not have the same cookie cutter meaning in all cases sinple due to the fact that the ancient Hebrew used only 8500 to 8200 words in its entire vocabulary. It can either mean angelic host or human beings.
Example: Subject - God Speaking to Job about where was he when the universe was made:
Job 38:6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
I did not know human beings were present at creation? Did you = oh to be so wise as to know it all !
The context is plain - these are angels - not human beings. Thus, context is so very important...
Why defend a 3rd century view that supported racist view based of anti-Semitic thinking of its day, I do not not know...
Hmmm - do I mean a 24 hour day or an epoch in history? Let's debate that
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Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:29 am
by PaulSacramento
DBowling wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:The word of God does not provide this instruction to angels.
Does not God instruct His Angels ??
The "this instruction" I was referring to above was the following from Psalm 82.
"Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked."
Do you agree with me that Scripture (the word of God) never gives this specific instruction to angels?
Do you agree with me that Scripture (the word of God) does give this specific instruction to human rulers?
Is not Christ God ??
Jesus Christ is most definitely God
IF the nations were given over to the sons of God and these were divine beings, would Jesus not have given them these orders?
Deut 32:8 NASB says
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the sons of Israel.
As I noted earlier in this thread
I don't believe that Deut 32 claims that the nations were given over to the sons of Israel... or sons of God for that matter.
I think the text is telling us that the number of the nations in Gen 10-11 corresponds to the number of the "sons of Israel" in Exodus 1:5.
There was no Israel at the time of the division, there were no sons of Israel.
Where in the OT is it stated that Israelis will rule other nations?
How do we address the passages about Israel worshiping Gods NOT alloted to them ?
Deuteronomy 4:19
Deuteronomy 29:26
Re: Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?
Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:33 am
by PaulSacramento
Lets try not to ridicule and make fun of each other's views, ok?