Evidence for God from Science

bippy123 wrote:The guy has guts lol

Or used to until he swallowed that radioactive substance.

This post has been made a sticky as it is about probably the most import Christian Relic in existence - whether valid or fake. If I could guide other members to post any Shroud comments, updates etc here so we can keep them all together. Thank you.

Silvertusk.

Silvertusk wrote:

bippy123 wrote:The guy has guts lol

Or used to until he swallowed that radioactive substance.

Just saw that you made this a sticky Silvertusk.
Thanks a bunch
God bless you:)
Bippmeister

P.S. Anyone interested in Doctor Assetta's site it's here http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/

This site also talks about a previously unknown 2nd facial image on the back of the shroud which cooresponds perfectly with the front facial image that wasn't discovered until modern times (2004) which they say matched what Professor John Jackson predicted in his cloth collapse theory. With all the stuff we talked about here on this thread I completely forgot about this. It's under the breaking news section. The crazy part is that Jackson's theory was in 1990.
Journal of Optics, UK, April 2004
Findings:
- There is a previously unknown image of the face on the backside of the Shroud
- The face on the backside matches the face on the front
- The nose, eyes, hair, beard, and moustache correspond in place, form, position and scale to those on the front
- The image is “doubly superficial” or only present on the uppermost and bottommost threads of the cloth.
- The findings of an image on the backside of the Shroud confirm a prediction by Dr. Jackson in 1990 according to the “cloth collapse” theory.

bippy123 wrote:P.S. Anyone interested in Doctor Assetta's site it's here http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/

This site also talks about a previously unknown 2nd facial image on the back of the shroud which cooresponds perfectly with the front facial image that wasn't discovered until modern times (2004) which they say matched what Professor John Jackson predicted in his cloth collapse theory. With all the stuff we talked about here on this thread I completely forgot about this. It's under the breaking news section. The crazy part is that Jackson's theory was in 1990.
Journal of Optics, UK, April 2004
Findings:
- There is a previously unknown image of the face on the backside of the Shroud
- The face on the backside matches the face on the front
- The nose, eyes, hair, beard, and moustache correspond in place, form, position and scale to those on the front
- The image is “doubly superficial” or only present on the uppermost and bottommost threads of the cloth.
- The findings of an image on the backside of the Shroud confirm a prediction by Dr. Jackson in 1990 according to the “cloth collapse” theory.

That's very interesting bippy, you really have peeked everyone's interest in the shroud on the site, great job and keep up the good work.

Question for you regarding the cloth collapse theory, while it would make sense that if the cloth collapsed after it's been emptied a symmetric image of what is on the inside top of the cloth would form on the inside bottom of the cloth as well, it would seem that the bottom image ought to be co-mingled so-to-speak with the backside image of the body. Is there any evidence of that? How were scientists able to isolate the two to support the cloth collapse theory?

Byblos wrote:

bippy123 wrote:P.S. Anyone interested in Doctor Assetta's site it's here http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/

This site also talks about a previously unknown 2nd facial image on the back of the shroud which cooresponds perfectly with the front facial image that wasn't discovered until modern times (2004) which they say matched what Professor John Jackson predicted in his cloth collapse theory. With all the stuff we talked about here on this thread I completely forgot about this. It's under the breaking news section. The crazy part is that Jackson's theory was in 1990.
Journal of Optics, UK, April 2004
Findings:
- There is a previously unknown image of the face on the backside of the Shroud
- The face on the backside matches the face on the front
- The nose, eyes, hair, beard, and moustache correspond in place, form, position and scale to those on the front
- The image is “doubly superficial” or only present on the uppermost and bottommost threads of the cloth.
- The findings of an image on the backside of the Shroud confirm a prediction by Dr. Jackson in 1990 according to the “cloth collapse” theory.

That's very interesting bippy, you really have peeked everyone's interest in the shroud on the site, great job and keep up the good work.

Question for you regarding the cloth collapse theory, while it would make sense that if the cloth collapsed after it's been emptied a symmetric image of what is on the inside top of the cloth would form on the inside bottom of the cloth as well, it would seem that the bottom image ought to be co-mingled so-to-speak with the backside image of the body. Is there any evidence of that? How were scientists able to isolate the two to support the cloth collapse theory?

Thanks Byblos, I really hope the thread here gets really hot (God willing).
Great question, wish I could answer it. Like I said my understanding of the physics of the shroud image formation is my one weak area ( which I plan to rectify in the future when I take Professor Jacksons advanced course in Colorado).

Stephen Jones was gracious enough to post the whole paper of Jacksons collapse theory here
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... l.html?m=1
Maybe we can find the answer in his research paper.
Jackson says his theory answers all of the questions of image formation, but it requires us to think of a new law of physics as every conventional law to date has been inadequate to explain it.

There is alot of meat in his paper
Maybe we can all dissect it here:)

Well, except that most human faces have the eyes situated at the center line of the skull. The eyeline on the Shroud sits higher up the face, much like faces in Medieval artwork of the period it is believed to be dated to.

Some guy replies with this.

So apparently in his "professional " opinion the face doesn't agree with his taste. Thus the shroud must be a forgery.


So I giae him a link to the 3D imaging of Jesus Christ. Which BTW which pretty much resembles what I would think CHrist would look like. Maybe hes hoping to see a image of a deformed Sasquatch with eyes on top of its head.

Swimmy wrote:

Well, except that most human faces have the eyes situated at the center line of the skull. The eyeline on the Shroud sits higher up the face, much like faces in Medieval artwork of the period it is believed to be dated to.

Some guy replies with this.

So apparently in his "professional " opinion the face doesn't agree with his taste. Thus the shroud must be a forgery.


So I giae him a link to the 3D imaging of Jesus Christ. Which BTW which pretty much resembles what I would think CHrist would look like. Maybe hes hoping to see a image of a deformed Sasquatch with eyes on top of its head.

Or Maybe a sasquatch with a Chuck Norris haircut (cant get that DRDS post out of my mind )
I sure this guy isnt a facial reconstruction surgeon or those hollywood movie stars are in big trouble lol.

Can this guy take a look at the illustration on the Hungarian pray codex in the 1190's that shows what is unmistakably the shroud, and the fact that the sudarium and shroud matches perfectly. The true experts say that this image is of a JEW, not a european.

Whats funny Swimmy is that the top experts in the world have looked at the shroud and said there is nothing anatomically wrong with the image. Why are these skeptics so much in denial that they wont check the peer reviewed literature .
Christ said his yoke is easy. I dont get what they are so afraid of.

The top atheist philosopher in the world Doctor Antony Flew converted to Deism from atheism because recent discoveries in cosmology and the dna cell convinced him that Live couldnt have arisen without an intelligent creator. He came close to Christianity but in the end settled for Deism and I looked at some of his last video interviews before he passed away and he was frightened out of his mind at the thought of living forever, and (its my opinion) that is probably why he didnt make the full conversion. Why would anyone onthis earth be afraid of living forever . Its just plain rediculous to me.

Update on the argument.

My recent response

Evidence for your claims. Perhaps you have proof that they maliciously distorted the image to get a desired result. Seems you're seeing something entirely different

His

You didn't measure, did you?

I guess he did


My response.


'Yes because with your professional opinion it must be true. Nor is it a valid objection to the shroud.The shroud is anatomically correct.Sorry. I'll take the facts of professionals over your uneducated opinion on anatomy who hasn't done any research on the shroud.''

Swimmy wrote:Update on the argument.

My recent response

Evidence for your claims. Perhaps you have proof that they maliciously distorted the image to get a desired result. Seems you're seeing something entirely different

His

You didn't measure, did you?

I guess he did


My response.


'Yes because with your professional opinion it must be true. Nor is it a valid objection to the shroud.The shroud is anatomically correct.Sorry. I'll take the facts of professionals over your uneducated opinion on anatomy who hasn't done any research on the shroud.''

Lets give the guy the facts from the true professionals
Skeptics like this guy are going to have to take it up with the medical and artistic community if they think the image isnt
anatomically perfect. This has been known since 1902. lol



Petros Soons

http://www.shroud.com/late09.htm

He also mentions the fact that his image shows 3D qualities.
Well that is a field that I am very familiar with having produced with a team of experts the first holograms
of the Shroud image. The uniqueness of the Shroud-image is that hidden in the gray-scale (image density) is
distance information, meaning that the image on the Shroud varies inversely with the cloth-to-body distance.
When converting the grayscale from 2D to 3D, the result is an anatomically correct image of a human being,
contrary to the result that you will obtain using any other image (photograph, painting etc.),
including the one of Prof. Garlaschelli, that always will show distortions,
like the nose pressed into the face and protruding cheeks etc. etc.,
which means that this unique distance info is not present.

http://www.shroud.com/rbtperry.pdf (this article also has many other great rebuttals against critics of the
shroud hint hint Paul;) )

The man pictured on the shroud not only looks real (as opposed to an artistic creation),
he is actually anatomically flawless down to minor details. this has been a unanimous verdict of a century
of medical opinion on the shroud. Its also the verdict of Isabel Piczek, A world expert in Figurative Draftsmanship

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... chive.html

Article from Doctor John Hellera biophysicist and member of the sturp team


The figure of the man on the Shroud is anatomically perfect.

"About a month later I read a report by Dr. Robert Bucklin, the deputy coroner and forensic pathologist
of Los Angeles County. Dr. Joseph Gambescia, a pathologist in Pennsylvania, concurred in the findings.
Forensic pathologists specialize in causes of violent death, and it was this report which first caused my
eyebrows to rise a bit. I have, tucked far away in my background, an M.D., though I do not use it much.
I had also spent eight years on the faculty of Yale University School of Medicine: two in pathology and six
in internal medicine. The forensic report said (with some translation from the medical jargon): `Irrespective
of how the images were made, there is adequate information here to state that they are anatomically correct. There is no problem in diagnosing what happened to this individual.
The pathology and physiology are unquestionable and represent medical knowledge unknown 150 years ago.

Plus the medical community knew the image to be anatomically perfect even back in 1902


here below is Yves Delage, AN AGNOSTIC french professor of comparitive anatomy in 1902 declares the image to be anatomically flawless

http://american-coins.org/the-shroud-of ... rn-forever'

In 1902 Yves Delage, a French professor of comparative anatomy published the first study on the subject.
Delage declared the image anatomically flawless and argued that the features of rigor mortis, wounds,
and blood flows were evidence that the image was formed by direct or indirect contact with a corpse.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/sorensen.pdf

Scientific scrutiny of the Shroud image began in 1900 at the Sorbonne. Under the
direction of Yves Delage, professor of comparative anatomy, a study was
undertaken of the physiology and pathology of the apparent body imprint and of
the possible manner of its formation. The image was found to be anatomically
flawless down to minor details: the characteristic features of rigor mortis,
wounds, and blood flows provided conclusive evidence to the anatomists that the
image was formed by direct or indirect contact with a corpse... On this point all
medical opinion since the time of Delage has been unanimous

.

Well he hasn't responded back. So I think he knows his claims are baseless.

Swimmy wrote:Well he hasn't responded back. So I think he knows his claims are baseless.

Whew that's a good thing . I thought for a second he was a doctor
Thank God that he isn't or I would have gone back to taking herbs again

Why doesn't the guy just go to shroud.com and read the hundreds of peer reviewed research articles on the shroud?
We all know the media is totally biased against the shroud. Doesn't he understand that if the image wasn't anatomically perfect that this would be all over the news and online.

There is a reason for this. That the scientific community has known since 1902 since Yves Delarge got up in front of the French medical community and made the declaration. After the booing stopped by the mostly atheistic crowd said that if this image was about anyone else but Jesus Christ they would have accepted his research with no problems, but because the image happened to be of Jesus the atheists have injected an emotional argument where none was.

This is why I liked the Kenneth Stevenson video so much because he very eloquently pointed this out.

Remember guys when I said to keep an eye on the Spain shroud conference?

There is news that just came out from Valencia Spain, but I can't find the whole research article, here is the initial piece of the research. What I want to know is what oils and ointments did the researcher find on it. They also said that the oils and ointments preserved the pollen.
This research is as fresh as a daisy and is just starting to come out .

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/06/fascinat ... tprs-poll/

Pollen is evidence that the Holy Shroud is indeed a winding sheet

According to university researchers the pollen found in the Turin Shroud corresponds to that of flowers used for funerals in Asia Minor 2000 years ago

MARCO TOSATTI
ROME
In a recent conference held in Valencia, on the Holy Shroud, the work of one Marzia Boi, a university researcher at the University of the Balearic Islands stood out in particular. Boi is an expert in Palynology, which is the science that studies pollen.

As history lovers may already know, the fabric of the Holy Shroud is covered in pollen and Boi’s report clearly highlights that the pollen is proof that the shroud, which is kept in Turin, was a winding-sheet and was used according to rituals common in the Middle East over a thousand years ago. We have therefore taken the liberty of drawing the following conclusion (which we would like to point out was never made by the researcher herself): this discovery is strong proof against the theory of the shroud being a medieval fake. It seems somewhat incredible (and it would be a true scientific miracle) that a medieval forger would have known what ointments and oils were used in Jewish funeral rites in I century AD and that this same forger would have put together aromas and ointments in the knowledge that a few centuries later tools that had not yet been invented might reveal his work.

Marzia Boi wrote in her report in Valencia: “ The pollen traces on the Holy Shroud which have so far been linked to the geographic origin of the relic reveal what oils and ointments were put both on the body and on the sheet. These discoveries have an ethno-cultural meaning linked to ancient funeral practices. These non-perishable particles capture the image of a 2000-year-old funeral rite and thanks to them it was possible to discover what plants were used in the preparation of the body that was kept in the sheet. The oils allowed the pollens, as fortuitous ingredients, to be absorbed and hidden in the shroud’s fabric like invisible evidence of an extraordinary historical event.” According to Jewish custom the dead bodies and the winding sheets were treated with oils and perfumed ointments following a meticulous ritual.

[...]

Read the rest there.

Let’s have a little poll.

I think I found out who the medieval forger was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge_%28comics%29

This explains alot.

Forge is a mutant with a superhuman intuitive talent for inventing mechanical devices, backed up by the ability to visually perceive mechanical energy in action. This power allows him to instinctively recognize the potential and functional uses of any machine or technological device in his visual range, a skill that combined with his natural intelligence gives him the ability to conceive, design and build highly-advanced mechanical devices; and operate, modify and disassemble existing technology or create countermeasures for it. Forge's superhuman talent for invention does not mean that he is of a superhuman intellect, even a genius at invention must for the most part consciously work out the theoretical principles behind the invention and then the design of the invention itself through a series of logical steps. In Forge's case, however, many of these logical steps are worked out by his subconscious mind. Hence, Forge himself might not be entirely aware of exactly how he figured out how to create an invention of his. Sometimes, he must disassemble a device he has made to even figure out how it works.

Forge wore synthetic stretch fabric backed by micro-thin bulletproof Kevlar and thermal insulation while a member of the X-Men. He sometimes employs devices of his own invention. Most notable among these was his Neutralizer gun that could suppress superhuman mutant abilities. The only known examples of this device have been destroyed. Forge has also invented a hand-held scanning device that can detect the presence of superhuman beings or aliens.

Forge has knowledge of many scientific and technological fields.

He also possesses various mystical abilities such as spell casting through mystical training, though he rarely uses these. He possesses extensive knowledge of Native American magic.

His bionic right hand and right leg often contain concealed weapons and devices that he can use in combat. In addition, they can be outfitted with computer interfaces and plasma blasters. His skill as a hand-to-hand combatant and as a marksman from his military training were so impressive that Nick Fury offered him a job with S.H.I.E.L.D.

Swimmy wrote:I think I found out who the medieval forger was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge_%28comics%29

This explains alot.

Forge is a mutant with a superhuman intuitive talent for inventing mechanical devices, backed up by the ability to visually perceive mechanical energy in action. This power allows him to instinctively recognize the potential and functional uses of any machine or technological device in his visual range, a skill that combined with his natural intelligence gives him the ability to conceive, design and build highly-advanced mechanical devices; and operate, modify and disassemble existing technology or create countermeasures for it. Forge's superhuman talent for invention does not mean that he is of a superhuman intellect, even a genius at invention must for the most part consciously work out the theoretical principles behind the invention and then the design of the invention itself through a series of logical steps. In Forge's case, however, many of these logical steps are worked out by his subconscious mind. Hence, Forge himself might not be entirely aware of exactly how he figured out how to create an invention of his. Sometimes, he must disassemble a device he has made to even figure out how it works.

Forge wore synthetic stretch fabric backed by micro-thin bulletproof Kevlar and thermal insulation while a member of the X-Men. He sometimes employs devices of his own invention. Most notable among these was his Neutralizer gun that could suppress superhuman mutant abilities. The only known examples of this device have been destroyed. Forge has also invented a hand-held scanning device that can detect the presence of superhuman beings or aliens.

Forge has knowledge of many scientific and technological fields.

He also possesses various mystical abilities such as spell casting through mystical training, though he rarely uses these. He possesses extensive knowledge of Native American magic.

His bionic right hand and right leg often contain concealed weapons and devices that he can use in combat. In addition, they can be outfitted with computer interfaces and plasma blasters. His skill as a hand-to-hand combatant and as a marksman from his military training were so impressive that Nick Fury offered him a job with S.H.I.E.L.D.

I knew it, a time traveler explains everything.
Swimmy, all we need now is for someone to give forge a Chuck Norris haircut and this mystery is solved!!!!!

I know the shroud holds a special place for many who believe in what it represents but I have always found it to be an unrealistic artifact if it was supposed to be from a jewish burial / entombment. At one point in my studies of jewish culture I read about their Burial Practices and it is quite an event. Here is a snip from a site dealing with the practice;

Burial Practices: Ancient Jewish Laws Concerning the Burial of the Dead
...Soon after death, family members of the deceased would mourn and prepare the body for burial. The deceased�s body was washed and anointed with various oils and spices. The body was then wrapped in unique linen clothing that contained spices and placed on a stone shelf that was carved into the bedrock wall of a the tomb... http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/back_to_ ... h_law.html

If one were to consider the practice carefully it is noted that the deceased was first washed.... (keep in mind that blood and how it is handled in jewish tradition was very carefully dealt with) It was washed until clean... thus no dirt or blood left. Then once clean it is oiled or what they called oil;

Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes.
Myrrh is a gum resin...
Aloe was also a resin ... http://voices.yahoo.com/the-history-bur ... 65278.html

Many think they understand what they are and how they are used but, it is always good to gain as much insight as possible here. So let's see another site that digs a bit deeper;

Burial Rituals
In the day of Jesus, Jewish society was incredibly structured. Every aspect of life was precisely defined and controlled by religious beliefs. This organization of life included burial rituals.
The Bible is even very clear on this matter. John 19:38-40 is very precise in indicating that Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus prepared Jesus' body in the manner of the Jews for proper burial. This procedure involves extensive wrapping of the body, while including a LOT of myrrh and aloes that would get placed between the various layers of cloth. Specifically, John 19:40 says that "Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury."

...Merrill Tenney describes the Jewish custom as follows: In preparing a body for burial according to Jewish custom, it was usually washed and straightened, and then bandaged tightly from the armpits to the ankles in strips of linen about a foot wide. Aromatic spices, often of a gummy consistency, were placed between the wrappings or folds. They served partially as a preservative and partially as a cement to glue the cloth wrappings into a solid covering. (from: The Reality of the Resurrection).

...in addition, a semi-liquid unguent such as nard was initially used to anoint the body. The effect of this would be to cause the powdered myrrh and aloes near the body to strongly adhere to the body and to the layers of linen. Outer layers of myrrh and the aloes might have remained as a dry powder.

...The head and hair were anointed with the nard unguent, but the powdered spices do not appear to have been applied to the head or face. A small separate 'face cloth' or 'napkin' was generally placed on the face or around the head. John 20:7 refers to this separate cloth, so this aspect of the custom was definitely used regarding Jesus. Rather than ONE piece of cloth, certainly at least two separate pieces are described here.

...Several points should be noted. A HUNDRED POUNDS of myrrh and aloes were applied during the burial preparation. If a single sheet, such as the Shroud of Turin was used as the burial cloth, how could they have applied such a great amount of spices? Jewish custom did not involve using a single cloth, but rather a number of long strips of linen that were tightly wrapped many times around the body. The presence of the myrrh and the nard would have made the burial clothes become extremely rigid. The burial clothes were never extended to cover the head or face but only wrapped the body.
http://mb-soft.com/public/shroud.html

For me there are many points given from the bible and historic ritual methodology to infer that a single shroud would at most have covered a fully wrapped body which would not have been still bleeding nor would it have soaked through to such outer covering based on the quantities of ingredients used in the process of preparation.