Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote:

CeT-To wrote:i also wanted to ask - has paradise been moved to heaven from sheol OR have the people been moved from paradise to heaven leaving paradise-sheol vacant?

According to Eph 4:8 — He led those in Paradise into Heaven to be with him where he is. According to Orthodox doctrine — Paradise remains.

Now, is it still vacant or still in use is debatable as there is no clear scripture to reveal to us either way. I have my own personal opinion on this matter that it is still in use for reasons only known and designed by God. I have no scripture to back up my own personal reasoning opinion — so that part is only my opinion and nothing more. Others say it remains vacant, but I think no one really knows, other than the Lord!
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Sorry i just reposting this cause i think it was unseen hahah .

:O!!!! you have just sparked an idea in my head ! this is just my opinion BUUUT wouldnt it be probable that Elijah is there since he was taken away by God..im thinking of the 2 prophets in revelation except im not sure if the second one is either Moses or Enoch. i think the 2 prophets in revelation could BE in paradise right now! LOL just a thought tho... haha

I was listening to the Book of Enoch : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5ek14z ... re=related <<< this is part 5 of 7 and if you pay close attention to 2:49 -4:06 it REALLY re-affirms what B.W. saying about 2 parts to sheol ( one for righteous and another for sinners) and also one for fallen angels.

cslewislover wrote:Kristoffer, in a post not long ago, you said intelligent design was rot or something. You were very disrespectful of it...

How do I say that the alternative is better without disrespecting it? Things change right? So what is so awful about the idea of evolution? (assuming God still has a big Role to play that is)

...Yet, you appreciate the beauty in nature (God Himself says that is one proof of Him). Now, one could possibly look at a creature or a plant, and imagine that there may have been enough time for that thing to evolve...

Much of the beauty is stuff that human beings selected artificially for favourable characteristics, some things in nature are down right ugly.

...But if you consider everything that exists, both how perfect...

Sorry I really do have to break this down, things in nature are NOT perfect. The human EYE is not from perfect, NOTHING is perfect in nature so never use the word perfect. The Natural world is one of TRADE-OFFS, losing one thing to get better in some other way...

and how mind-bogglingly complicated they are, coupled with how integrated with each other they are, how can one possibly think in any rational way that it all happened by chance?

Because it is not entirely random, Natural selection sorts out the wheat from the chaff. The improvements gradually increase cumulating over time. Every single time fertilization occurs thousands of mutations happen, some are automatically corrected, many others remain, There are malign(sometimes in very small ways) or Neutral or even beneficial mutations. For instance if a malign mutation wont affect you until you are very old, then it can carry on in the genepool can't it? A neutral one would have no effect at all. A beneficent one will actually improve the survival of the organism that carries it.

...Yes, a type of "evolution" exists, but the foundations of life could not have just happened...

Evolution says NOTHING about how life begins, it is a theory that explains facts it also is a fact. Nothing "just happens things adapt to the environment and the environment is in constant flux isn't it?

...And if you say there is another choice between chance and intelligent design...

never

PS. you really have to make me post so terribly offtopic?

Kristoffer wrote:

B. W. wrote:

Kristoffer wrote: ...
Much of the stuff Jesus Kristus said...about personal experience Csl...As long as it was my personal experience and not someone else's.

B. W. wrote:Now to answer a few of your comments:

Kristoffer wrote:I would live as if there was a god, if you could live as if it was the only life you was ever getting. Is that possible?

Answers: Ecclesiastes 8:11 — Isaiah 26:10 — Proverbs 1:32

Now let me respond:

…. Isaiah 26:10 - I am sorry but I disagree, This really doesn't apply to me I would take notice of such "majesty"

Proverbs 1:32- On the face of it, this sounds acceptable. Although I find it hard to believe that I have turned away from anything its not my style I try to face things head on.

You fulfill Isaiah 26:10 to a tee. You do not understand nor see the majesty of the Lord thus as Proverbs says — you have turned away...and cannot see...

B. W. wrote:

Kristoffer wrote:Not that I am saying that it is totally corrupt, maybe just more like a pure heart inside a body of tainted flesh.

Answers: Jeremiah 17:9-10

Kristoffer wrote: Response: Doesn't quite ring true, atleast for me but "only the lord knows", sounds like a ounce of good old honesty! I would like to say that just two verses down, that it is true that a person who gets their wealth by unjust means will sooner or later lose it...Which is why I am not like that, my wealth comes from lots of perspiration (and a small amount of inspiration!)

Yes — the heart desperately twist away from the Lord and fails to see the majesty of the Lord thru the work of grace. It is by the Lord's hand — not by your perspiration…

B. W. wrote:Same with the usage of evil which means twisted onto another path. In other words the kind of thinking that does not permit intellectual honest integrity. It seeks its own way and will over others just as many of your comments here so far allude too as well as prove.

Kristoffer wrote: Can't god turn Evil things into good ones? What makes you think I am on a twisted path, how do you know god is not pushing me along...without me even knowing it?

God does so thru Christ — only during this mortal life can turn one from the twisted path (evil) by offering a choice. Before this, there was no choice. Atheism offers no choice. World system offers no choice. These systems only offer one way to go and no other except rejecting God who permits true honest choice between to paths - Chooses perspiration because they can't see the majesty of the Lord.

It is here and now you have a choice thru the message of Christ. Reject that choice, you have that right. Accept it, you have that right. This proves God way beyond our view of what is just, fair, impartial for all. He will not force you — only seeks to persuade you to make a choice. God tells the truth what the cost of rejecting his choice is as well what happens when one accepts it.

Kristoffer wrote:

B. W. wrote: Christ offer liberty — that a person does not have to remain on the twisted path
— that they have now a real choice to consider. No one can force you to believe or convert; you can go you own way.[/quote
Well, maybe I want my own twisted path...How do you know that all twisted paths are against kristus?

B. W. wrote:Worldly thought and religion does not permit intellectual honest integrity.

Wait, hold on...

Worldly thought and religion?

B. W. wrote:We do not like to think that our paths produce pain, ruin, death, heartaches, miseries,

Some people can accept painful truths. I know that I have made bad choices, but on the whole I think I have done some rather clever, wise and mighty things.

Can your choices rather clever, wise and mighty things really erase what's in your heart that continues to produce the bad? Are you better than God and what he can do for you?

Isaiah 26:10 rings true for you…
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Kristoffer, you are by far exaggerating the amount of mutations that occur, the ones that are beneficial (there are only two that scientists claim are beneficial, one quickly ceased to exist in further generations, the other was later found to actually be cumbersome) and the power of natural selection. Evolution depends on luck. Period. It is incredibly vulnerable to the Chaos Theory, which you could say allows for more "experiments" and variation, but actually undermines the idea of natural selection, which claims to create some sort of order. It is different parts of Chaos meeting by chance over and over again to somehow create the world we have today.
Besides, natural selection has no tendency to evolve more complex or smarter or otherwise better organisms. It simply adjusts them to their environment and these "adjustments" are quick to fade if it changes again. The idea that everything could fall in place to produce humans or even birds for that matter is so unlikely, it's ridiculous. In fact, a good way of saying it is: Evolution is such a huge miracle, the only way it could happen is if there is a God.

Does it not seem odd that for all the Bible has to say about unity, its ultimate message is if one does not in this short life connect with "God" through salvation, one is to be forever separated (in hell) without hope of unification. Where is restoration? How can what started as a whole "God" be reconciled if some of the parts are forever separated? Isn't the whole now less than the whole?

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Butterfly wrote:Does it not seem odd that for all the Bible has to say about unity, its ultimate message is if one does not in this short life connect with "God" through salvation, one is to be forever separated (in hell) without hope of unification. Where is restoration? How can what started as a whole "God" be reconciled if some of the parts are forever separated? Isn't the whole now less than the whole?

I Find it odd that you posted this on another thread:

Butterfly wrote:

jlay wrote:

Butterfly wrote:
I would choose to give the murderer a life sentence. Taking a life does not bring back the life of the victim, so if perchance the murderer can in someway do something with his life that could benefit humanity no matter how small, I would choose that. A life for a life benefits no one.

So you would send him to prison even though he would not have you do that unto him?
You, see, if the GR is taken subjectively, even objectively in the weak sense, one will have to import other moral values. And so then, how do we decide which one's to follow and when? It can't be the GR itself, because it just insists that we follow our desire how we would be treated.

I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but I think if I were a murderer I would rather have life in prison than execution.

jlay wrote:What's best for society? What's best for the victim's family? Those are all just personal values.

Yes, those are just personal values, just like the decision of whether to execute the murderer, or give him life in prison.

Butterfly wrote:I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but I think if I were a murderer I would rather have life in prison than execution.

Oh the glory of God - eternal life sentence in God's eternal prison - which you prefer according to your statement

And you calling God unjust for granting you what you prefer?
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B. W. wrote:

Butterfly wrote:Does it not seem odd that for all the Bible has to say about unity, its ultimate message is if one does not in this short life connect with "God" through salvation, one is to be forever separated (in hell) without hope of unification. Where is restoration? How can what started as a whole "God" be reconciled if some of the parts are forever separated? Isn't the whole now less than the whole?

I Find it odd that you posted this on another thread:

Butterfly wrote:

jlay wrote:

Butterfly wrote:
I would choose to give the murderer a life sentence. Taking a life does not bring back the life of the victim, so if perchance the murderer can in someway do something with his life that could benefit humanity no matter how small, I would choose that. A life for a life benefits no one.

So you would send him to prison even though he would not have you do that unto him?
You, see, if the GR is taken subjectively, even objectively in the weak sense, one will have to import other moral values. And so then, how do we decide which one's to follow and when? It can't be the GR itself, because it just insists that we follow our desire how we would be treated.

I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but I think if I were a murderer I would rather have life in prison than execution.

jlay wrote:What's best for society? What's best for the victim's family? Those are all just personal values.

Yes, those are just personal values, just like the decision of whether to execute the murderer, or give him life in prison.

Butterfly wrote:I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but I think if I were a murderer I would rather have life in prison than execution.

Oh the glory of God - eternal life sentence in God's eternal prison - which you prefer according to your statement

And you calling God unjust for granting you what you prefer?
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I find it odd that you didn't answer my questions:

1."Where is restoration?"
2."How can what started as a whole "God" be reconciled if some of the parts are forever separated?"
3."Isn't the whole now less than the whole?"
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Butterfly, I don't know about you but I believe everything was created ex nihilo, we are not a part of God. We were created out of nothing to be free moral agents, if we reject God he honors our wish to be seperated from him, this does not mean God is not whole, because we were not created out of him.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Butterfly, I don't know about you but I believe everything was created ex nihilo, we are not a part of God. We were created out of nothing to be free moral agents, if we reject God he honors our wish to be seperated from him, this does not mean God is not whole, because we were not created out of him.

I know the ex nihilo theory is very popular, but what bugs me about it is if god is all in all then there was nothing outside of god from which to create, so ultimately everything came from god, thus it was not created ex nihilo. I do know we could go round and round forever and the problem will never be solved, so I thank you for your answer.
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Butterfly wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Butterfly, I don't know about you but I believe everything was created ex nihilo, we are not a part of God. We were created out of nothing to be free moral agents, if we reject God he honors our wish to be seperated from him, this does not mean God is not whole, because we were not created out of him.

I know the ex nihilo theory is very popular, but what bugs me about it is if god is all in all then there was nothing outside of god from which to create, so ultimately everything came from god, thus it was not created ex hihilo. I do know we could go round and round forever and the problem will never be solved, so I thank you for your answer.
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So, you're a pantheist, are you. It's becoming clearer and clearer now.

Butterfly wrote:I know the ex nihilo theory is very popular, but what bugs me about it is if god is all in all then there was nothing outside of god from which to create...

This isn't Christianity. God being all in all is a panentheistic vue, in that all reality is in - and generated by - god. God being all is a pantheistic vue, in that god is real but every thing is an illusion.

FL

RickD wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Butterfly, I don't know about you but I believe everything was created ex nihilo, we are not a part of God. We were created out of nothing to be free moral agents, if we reject God he honors our wish to be seperated from him, this does not mean God is not whole, because we were not created out of him.

I know the ex nihilo theory is very popular, but what bugs me about it is if god is all in all then there was nothing outside of god from which to create, so ultimately everything came from god, thus it was not created ex hihilo. I do know we could go round and round forever and the problem will never be solved, so I thank you for your answer.
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So, you're a pantheist, are you. It's becoming clearer and clearer now.

Not really...I'm more leaning toward the idea of being part of a universal collective consciousness.
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Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Butterfly wrote:I know the ex nihilo theory is very popular, but what bugs me about it is if god is all in all then there was nothing outside of god from which to create...

This isn't Christianity. God being all in all is a panentheistic vue, in that all reality is in - and generated by - god. God being all is a pantheistic vue, in that god is real but every thing is an illusion.

FL

I was responding to Dan's post on ex nihilo, where I said IF god is all in all. I did not say that is what I believe. As I responded to RickD, I'm leaning toward the idea of being part of a universal collective consciousness, not pantheism.
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