Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote: But Gman, Christ has already set us apart. Read the verses you posted. He is the one who set us apart, through faith in him! We don't have to do anything. He has done it all!!!!

He has done it all but He hasn't done away with Torah yet either.. If we claim we have the faith, then the works should follow... James is a prime example of that...

James 2:14-17
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:17-24, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

I'm sorry, but that's the impression I'm getting.

I'm sorry if that happened. But you can also see if I was of the world looking at someone who was practicing the Shabbat, wouldn't I be judging that person also? In other words, I could also put down a person for following the Shabbat too. That it seems is what the worldly mindset is doing.

If Christ set us apart.. Why would he want to set us apart of the lovely blessing of not working on the Shabbat?

He has done it all but He hasn't done away with Torah yet either..

If God hasn't done away with the Torah "yet", as you said, does that imply that He will do away with the Torah? According to you, isn't the Torah an everlasting covenant?

If we claim we have the faith, then the works should follow... James is a prime example of that...

James 2:14-17
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:17-24, “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Works will follow. Like a tree produces fruit. Naturally, with no effort on the tree's part. We as believers, produce good works through the power of the Holy Spirit of God in us. We don't produce good works through our own efforts. Just like a tree puts no effort into producing fruit.

I'm sorry if that happened. But you can also see if I was of the world looking at someone who was practicing the Shabbat, wouldn't I be judging that person also? In other words, I could also put down a person for following the Shabbat too. That it seems is what the worldly mindset is doing.

If I was "of the world", and I saw someone who was practicing the Sabbath, first I would assume he was Jewish. And second, if he wasn't Jewish, then I would wonder why that crazy person is trying to act Jewish. Of course that is hypothetical, and assumes I'm "of the world". Which I'm not.

If Christ set us apart.. Why would he want to set us apart of the lovely blessing of not working on the Shabbat?

I don't even know how to answer this. I rest plenty.(according to my wife, I "rest" too much. But that's another issue)God has given me plenty of blessings. None of which is following rituals from sundown on Friday, to sundown on Saturday. Religious rituals aren't what gets ME closer to God. But like I said, you have the liberty in Christ to follow Jewish customs if you like.

Gman, I just have one question. Has anyone ever told you that you're "eccentric"?

RickD wrote: If God hasn't done away with the Torah "yet", as you said, does that imply that He will do away with the Torah? According to you, isn't the Torah an everlasting covenant?

Yes.. Well I never said that G-d's Torah will ever be done away with.. I believe that would be a contradiction of scripture.

1 Peter 1:23-25
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

And this is the word that was preached to you.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever. ”

Works will follow. Like a tree produces fruit. Naturally, with no effort on the tree's part. We as believers, produce good works through the power of the Holy Spirit of God in us. We don't produce good works through our own efforts. Just like a tree puts no effort into producing fruit.

Yes.. I understand. But how can you tell good works or fruit opposed to bad works or bad fruit outside of G-d's Torah? What are we measuring sin against? Our feelings? I hope you understand...

If I was "of the world", and I saw someone who was practicing the Sabbath, first I would assume he was Jewish. And second, if he wasn't Jewish, then I would wonder why that crazy person is trying to act Jewish. Of course that is hypothetical, and assumes I'm "of the world". Which I'm not.

Because practicing the Shabbat is not strictly a Jewish thing.. It's a Biblical commandment to the Lord our G-d.

Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do.

I don't even know how to answer this. I rest plenty.(according to my wife, I "rest" too much. But that's another issue)God has given me plenty of blessings. None of which is following rituals from sundown on Friday, to sundown on Saturday. Religious rituals aren't what gets ME closer to God. But like I said, you have the liberty in Christ to follow Jewish customs if you like.

Yes.. You are at the liberty to do as you wish.. No one can force you to honor the Shabbat, you will have to come to that conclusion on your own. Look, I use to feel the same way about it too.. I could really have cared less about what day G-d wanted me to honor... But things for me have changed now. I'm now starting to see how this commandment works. Once you open your eyes to it, things start to make sense.. Finally. But it takes time.

A lot of this has to do with obedience.. If your wife asked you to do something for her.. Wouldn't you do it? Same as with G-d.

RickD wrote:Gman, I just have one question. Has anyone ever told you that you're "eccentric"?

No.. But sometimes a little goofy here and there..

25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

Ah, "forever". The english translation from the greek "Aion". Aion can mean, "period of time, or age". As well as, "for ever". Just a thought

Aion

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 165
Original Word Word Origin
aion from the same as (104)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aion 1:197,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-ohn' Noun Masculine
Definition

, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever. ”

And, "`owlam". Can mean, "long duration". As well as "for ever".

`owlam

The NAS Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 5769
Original Word Word Origin
~lw[ from (05956)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
`owlam TWOT - 1631a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
o-lawm' Noun Masculine
Definition

long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
ancient time, long time (of past)
(of future)
for ever, always
continuous existence, perpetual
everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Yes.. I understand. But how can you tell good works or fruit opposed to bad works or bad fruit outside of G-d's Torah? What are we measuring sin against? Our feelings? I hope you understand...

Ah, yes. Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

preceding that, is:
Romans 7:4-6: 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

We have been released from the law. We serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Because practicing the Shabbat is not strictly a Jewish thing.. It's a Biblical commandment to the Lord our G-d.
Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do.

Gman, how does Deuteronomy 5:14 apply to YOU? Do you have a male or female servant? An ox? A donkey? A foreigner residing in your towns that must obey the sabbath? Do you make sure your male and female servants rest as you do? This was a specific law. Given to a specific people. At a specific time. Who has specific customs that applied. A law given to the Jews under the theocracy of Israel. Not to gentiles under the socialism, I mean democracy of the U.S.

Yes.. You are at the liberty to do as you wish.. No one can force you to honor the Shabbat, you will have to come to that conclusion on your own.

But if I were your son, or manservant, you by law, would have to force me to obey the Sabbath.

I use to feel the same way about it too.. I could really have cared less about what day G-d wanted me to honor...

Gman, I never said I could care less what day God wanted me to honor. I said every day is the Lord's to me. And my conscience is clear on that.

But things for me have changed now. I'm now starting to see how this commandment works.

Thats because you're getting a little "eccentric" in your middle years. I chalk it up to a mid-life crisis. Some guys buy a Corvette. You just happened to turn Jewish.

A lot of this has to do with obedience.. If your wife asked you to do something for her.. Wouldn't you do it? Same as with G-d.

I would. But, I wouldn't do something she asked her first husband to do.

Seeing that we're going in circles here, unless you want to concede defeat at the hands of my mighty wit, then I'll let you get the last words in. I'm content to agree to disagree at this point.

Gman wrote:I'm now starting to see how this commandment works. Once you open your eyes to it, things start to make sense.. Finally. But it takes time. A lot of this has to do with obedience.. If your wife asked you to do something for her.. Wouldn't you do it? Same as with G-d.

You have touched on my thoughts to the point of a response. For me the fact that God made the seventh day holy long before he ever commanded obedience to it was the important point. I love God and I love what he and his Son love. In my understanding God felt that his people... the ones who loved him would honor the same thing he did. these verses speak volumes to me;

Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
For me it has never been the fact that he commanded people at some point to honor that day. It was the fact that He felt that honoring the same day as your creator does is a form of worship, a way of showing him that we love him by honoring the same day he does. (in my understanding anyway)
G, when God gave woman to man we were to learn about relationships, intellectual interactions with other intelligent beings. My wife has some things she holds precious that were never precious to me before we met but now I hold them precious because I came to love her and all the things important to her. Of course, it is nice to see it work both ways.

RickD wrote:What I'm saying is that Ive read 18 pages in this thread, and countless pages in other threads, and nobody's interpretation of scripture has convinced me that it's anything other than a matter of conscience between an individual believer and God.

Well, and that's fair, brother. I would simply say not to be closed off to a position simply because the specific people on this specific board haven't convinced you of it. But, at the end of the day, what you see Scripture to say is what you should follow, whether it meshes with what I see or not.

Cheezerrox, you're starting to sound like Ken Ham now. I've read what the bible says, and that's why I believe what I do. Your interpretation of what the bible says about something that has no affect on salvation, is not my interpretation. If you said "can be shown what I(cheezerrox) think the bible says", then that would be a better way to put it. I'm sorry, but Ken Ham has got me sick of people equating their interpretation with scripture itself. So, if you didn't mean it that way, then I apologize.

I didn't mean it that way, but no apologies necessary, Rick. I did mean what I THINK the Bible says, and didn't mean to equate that interpretation with Scripture itself. As I said before, I could very easily be wrong, and this has nothing to do with anyone's salvation. I apologize, for giving that impression, my friend.

But, I do ask that you understand the fact that while I do simply believe my interpretation of the Scriptures, I still hold that position as TRUE, even if I can admit that I may be wrong. And because I believe it is true, I will present it that way, although with the disclaimer that it is still MY interpretation. I believe this is an important issue, but, not in any way a salvation issue. You seem to take your position as the objective, Scriptural-position, and mine as the interpretation. I simply ask that you realize the fact that we BOTH have interpretations, that we base on Scripture.

RickD wrote:Seeing that we're going in circles here, unless you want to concede defeat at the hands of my mighty wit, then I'll let you get the last words in. I'm content to agree to disagree at this point.

As I said before, one of us is wrong, very possibly me/Gman/Messianics, and we're certainly in the minority on this issue. I don't see it as my responsibility to try and convict you, and that's not in my power regardless. Besides, I would never wish to try, because I am infallible, and not in G-d's position, and that for good reason.

The only reason I brought up the debate aspect of the thread again was not to begin it with you again, Rick, as I know that's not your interest, and I can respect that. It was simply an invitation to anyone else who was interested in looking at the Scriptures about it to discuss it, as the thread had slightly went off-track of its original intent.

We're saved, we're cleansed, we're justified, we're righteous. Nothing to worry about and nothing to fight about. Blessings to you, Rick .

cheezerrox wrote:The only reason I brought up the debate aspect of the thread again was not to begin it with you again, Rick, as I know that's not your interest, and I can respect that. It was simply an invitation to anyone else who was interested in looking at the Scriptures about it to discuss it, as the thread had slightly went off-track of its original intent.

This is the exact type of interaction I was looking for on this particular subject cheez. I don't know if I'm wrong or right empirically but I know how the interpretation comes across to me and I was not guided through the bible by anyone. I simply began to study it by myself and my conclusion was nearly the same as yours. The part I want to understand most is how others come to the their understandings. I want to understand the salient points along the path that allow for the conclusions derived. I want to walk in other peoples shoes for a mile or so.

cheezerrox wrote:
You seem to take your position as the objective, Scriptural-position, and mine as the interpretation. I simply ask that you realize the fact that we BOTH have interpretations, that we base on Scripture.

If I gave you that impression, then I apologize. My interpretation of scripture, along with my conscience, leads me to my belief on this. I don't presume that my interpretation is equal to scripture itself.

cheezerrox wrote:
As I said before, I could very easily be wrong

This I agree with. I think you could very easily be wrong too.

Now I see KBCid has joined the conversation, so this is my cue to sneak out the back door.

RickD wrote:If I gave you that impression, then I apologize. My interpretation of scripture, along with my conscience, leads me to my belief on this. I don't presume that my interpretation is equal to scripture itself.

Nothing to worry about, brother. I know that wasn't what you intended to mean.

This I agree with. I think you could very easily be wrong too.

Now I see KBCid has joined the conversation, so this is my cue to sneak out the back door.

LOL, you heathens have such a good sense of humor!

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, Rick. I hope they help anyone who reads it to be inspired to look for themselves and be led to the truth, wherever it may lead.

RickD wrote: As well as, "for ever". Just a thought

That's right.. I agree... Forever.

More here:
http://biblelaw101.com/Home/The%20Law%2 ... orever.htm

RickD wrote: preceding that, is:
Romans 7:4-6: 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

We have been released from the law. We serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Rick.. I don't believe that is what the verse is talking about, a release from the Law. I believe it is saying that since Yeshua paid the penalty for our disobedience to the Law or Torah, He paid for the aspect which causes unbelievers to produce bad fruit unto death. Therefore we have been released from the legalism, the guilt feelings which follow from disobedience, and the penalties and curses for disobeying the Law but not the Law itself. So yes we can serve it in a new understanding, but not get rid of the Law either. That just doesn't make any sense... Again the Law is there simply to show us where we got off the mark, not to condemn us...

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Can you imagine what would happen if we took away all the laws in our nation? Do you really think we would live in harmony with ourselves?

RickD wrote:Gman, how does Deuteronomy 5:14 apply to YOU? Do you have a male or female servant? An ox? A donkey? A foreigner residing in your towns that must obey the sabbath? Do you make sure your male and female servants rest as you do? This was a specific law. Given to a specific people. At a specific time. Who has specific customs that applied. A law given to the Jews under the theocracy of Israel. Not to gentiles under the socialism, I mean democracy of the U.S.

Rick... Of course I don't have an ox, a donkey, or a male or female servant.. But I can still make someone work for me if I ask someone to wash my car, pay someone to feed me food in a restaurant, or fix my sink on a Sabbath day. I can also tell someone staying in my house as a guest not to work. That I can control.. There is nothing in the Law that says that it is given to a specific people, at a specific time, etc.. You simply won't find it..

RickD wrote:Gman, I never said I could care less what day God wanted me to honor. I said every day is the Lord's to me. And my conscience is clear on that.

Ok.. Then that is your choice amigo...

I would. But, I wouldn't do something she asked her first husband to do.

Seeing that we're going in circles here, unless you want to concede defeat at the hands of my mighty wit, then I'll let you get the last words in. I'm content to agree to disagree at this point.

No defeat here.... Only feet or my foot standing on G-d's word...

Take care champ...

KBCid wrote: G, when God gave woman to man we were to learn about relationships, intellectual interactions with other intelligent beings. My wife has some things she holds precious that were never precious to me before we met but now I hold them precious because I came to love her and all the things important to her. Of course, it is nice to see it work both ways.

Yes.. An interesting analogy. I also think our relationships with others reflect in many ways our relationship with G-d where our cares become their cares and their cares become ours. So yes, it starts becoming very personal.

RickD wrote:preceding that, is:
Romans 7:4-6: 4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,a the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
We have been released from the law. We serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Gman wrote:Rick.. I don't believe that is what the verse is talking about, a release from the Law. I believe it is saying that since Yeshua paid the penalty for our disobedience to the Law or Torah, He paid for the aspect which causes unbelievers to produce bad fruit unto death. Therefore we have been released from the legalism, the guilt feelings which follow from disobedience, and the penalties and curses for disobeying the Law but not the Law itself. So yes we can serve it in a new understanding, but not get rid of the Law either. That just doesn't make any sense... Again the Law is there simply to show us where we got off the mark, not to condemn us..

G, I would like to throw another possible way of looking at Ricks reference if you don't mind and see what you think about it.
In Romans 7:4-6 it is said "you also died to the law through the body of Christ". This is entirely concerning the sacrificial laws. Christ is our lamb... Christ is THE sacrifice that actually allows for forgiveness of sin. So the message to me from that verse is that we no longer have to perform a ritualistic sacrifice according to the old sacrificial laws that came through moses which were meant to be a temporary institution until Shilo comes.
When it says "But now we are delivered from the law" What does it really mean? The rest of the verse does define its meaning, "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." What exactly does "serve" refer to? It means serve the law in newness of the spirit of the law and not in the 'letter' of the law. So it is not advocating that 'the law' has been done away with at all, it is stating that we should obey the law in its spiritual meaning. One of Christs jobs besides being the final sacrifice was to magnify the law.... How does one magnify a law?

ISAIAH 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness sake; He will MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honorable.

Take a moment and read this and see what you think
http://home.earthlink.net/~gdpifer/He_W ... e_Law.html

In my understanding all of the sacrificial laws were the temporary actions that could be performed 'religiously' to conceptually allow sins to be forgiven but, as was pointed out this method never really could perform that function, it was more like getting a credit in lieu of an upcomming event.
In the end the entire fullfillment that Christ had performed was for those laws which in fact could be fullfilled. Christ was the only real sacrifice for sins. Sins were and are disobeying Gods commands. Commands such as "thou shalt not kill" are not commands that can be fullfilled by Christs sacrifice so one must discern between commands that were to be fullfilled and commands that defined what it means to sin.

I still find it quite true that we would not know what sin was without the law and if it is asserted that the law has been eliminated then the logical end to it is that we can't sin anymore. You can't be convicted of a law that doesn't exist. So it is quite obvious that Christs sacrifice had a meaning concerning laws. It had meaning concerning laws involving how the effect of sin was dealt with before his final sacrifice and his message was simply saying that you no longer have to depend on sacrificing the old fashioned way your fathers did because I'm here now, I will be the final sacrificial action that CAN be performed for redemption from sinning. Christ is now the 'only' way to make an offering to the father for the sins you have commited or will commit because Christ is the only sacrifice God has accepted and the law that defines what it means to sin is still in effect and Christ is now all that we can offer our Father for our own sinning.

If you kill someone it is still a sin, if you covet, it is still a sin. If you choose to honor the first day of the week as the holy sabbath then it is a sin. The fact that God came down and gave moses the initial list of what sins are was not to be construed as the beginning of sin. When Cain killed abel he commited a sin. It was a sin then and it is still a sin now. Gods action on sinai was to make it completely clear what actions we could do to cause a sin to occur and his intent was that eventually we would obey the commandments in the spirit of their meaning not simply in the lettering used to convey them or the additional lettering that was added by the priests to try and better define their meanings such as those defining what one could do on the sabbath day.
God set aside a single day and made it... alone... holy. It is his day and our day that is intended for us to rest from everything besides our interaction with him... For him, to be worshipped and for us to do the worshipping. It is a sign between Him and his children that we recognise him specifically as the God we worship since no other god has asserted to have performed the 6 day creation with a subsequent specific day of rest.

So let me know what you think G.

KBCid wrote: G, I would like to throw another possible way of looking at Ricks reference if you don't mind and see what you think about it.
In Romans 7:4-6 it is said "you also died to the law through the body of Christ". This is entirely concerning the sacrificial laws. Christ is our lamb... Christ is THE sacrifice that actually allows for forgiveness of sin. So the message to me from that verse is that we no longer have to perform a ritualistic sacrifice according to the old sacrificial laws that came through moses which were meant to be a temporary institution until Shilo comes.
When it says "But now we are delivered from the law" What does it really mean? The rest of the verse does define its meaning, "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." What exactly does "serve" refer to? It means serve the law in newness of the spirit of the law and not in the 'letter' of the law. So it is not advocating that 'the law' has been done away with at all, it is stating that we should obey the law in its spiritual meaning. One of Christs jobs besides being the final sacrifice was to magnify the law.... How does one magnify a law?

ISAIAH 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness sake; He will MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honorable.

Take a moment and read this and see what you think
http://home.earthlink.net/~gdpifer/He_W ... e_Law.html

Sure.. I think I could agree that Yeshua magnified the law and fulfilled it. His sacrifice is the ultimate payment for our sin or not walking in G-d's laws. So yes, we walk the Law spiritually and not do away with it either. In terms of walking by the letter of the Law I perceive that as walking it legalistically without the spirit or love. My personal belief on the "newness of Law" is how to walk the Law in light of Yeshua. In other words, how we walk "The Law" or instructions of G-d, is decoded in the New Testament which is actually not really even new when you study it. I believe the Law is magnified in the NT..

KBCid wrote:In my understanding all of the sacrificial laws were the temporary actions that could be performed 'religiously' to conceptually allow sins to be forgiven but, as was pointed out this method never really could perform that function, it was more like getting a credit in lieu of an upcomming event.
In the end the entire fullfillment that Christ had performed was for those laws which in fact could be fullfilled. Christ was the only real sacrifice for sins. Sins were and are disobeying Gods commands. Commands such as "thou shalt not kill" are not commands that can be fullfilled by Christs sacrifice so one must discern between commands that were to be fullfilled and commands that defined what it means to sin.

I still find it quite true that we would not know what sin was without the law and if it is asserted that the law has been eliminated then the logical end to it is that we can't sin anymore. You can't be convicted of a law that doesn't exist. So it is quite obvious that Christs sacrifice had a meaning concerning laws. It had meaning concerning laws involving how the effect of sin was dealt with before his final sacrifice and his message was simply saying that you no longer have to depend on sacrificing the old fashioned way your fathers did because I'm here now, I will be the final sacrificial action that CAN be performed for redemption from sinning. Christ is now the 'only' way to make an offering to the father for the sins you have commited or will commit because Christ is the only sacrifice God has accepted and the law that defines what it means to sin is still in effect and Christ is now all that we can offer our Father for our own sinning.

If you kill someone it is still a sin, if you covet, it is still a sin. If you choose to honor the first day of the week as the holy sabbath then it is a sin. The fact that God came down and gave moses the initial list of what sins are was not to be construed as the beginning of sin. When Cain killed abel he commited a sin. It was a sin then and it is still a sin now. Gods action on sinai was to make it completely clear what actions we could do to cause a sin to occur and his intent was that eventually we would obey the commandments in the spirit of their meaning not simply in the lettering used to convey them or the additional lettering that was added by the priests to try and better define their meanings such as those defining what one could do on the sabbath day.
God set aside a single day and made it... alone... holy. It is his day and our day that is intended for us to rest from everything besides our interaction with him... For him, to be worshipped and for us to do the worshipping. It is a sign between Him and his children that we recognise him specifically as the God we worship since no other god has asserted to have performed the 6 day creation with a subsequent specific day of rest.

So let me know what you think G.

Yes.. I think I could agree with that... Especially the "sign" part.. I think when we go outside G-d's boundaries and start defining how we think it should all go, which day is holy to me instead of G-d's day, etc.. then yes, pretty soon we start walking away even though G-d may object.

wrong forum post...sorry

For the Gentile Christians coming to the faith, there is no evidence that they "must" keep the Sabbath. Acts 15 has the decree for the Gentiles. So if a Gentile wants to regard that day, we are not to judge. So same with the Jew who does "not" keep the Sabbath, we are not to judge. I would say that if a person teaches that it is a necessity to keep the Sabbath for ones salvation, then one must also teach physical circumcision as in Gen 18.