Evidence for God from Science

Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

B. W. wrote:You know, when I ran around as an atheist, I recall a question once asked me:

What do you believe?

From my former atheist stance, I would claim science, facts, truth was what I believed in and founded my morality on. I did so with complete smug indifference. The truth of the matter was that these provided no solid foundation upon which to stand. Like shifting sand, science changed as did relative truth, and facts gelled into a grey mass of moral confusion. Though I claimed truth, I rejected, during that time, the objective nature of truth, unless I could twist the fact into my favor such as the golden rule. I did it so well that I could never see how I broke it daily and only applied as to how other must treat me. I, however was exempt.

Science, psychology, and philosophy become my idols and I bowed to facts that always changed back. Nothing was solid. I just fooled myself as atheist still do so today. There is no moral guidance to science, relative truth, or facts as these are amoral. However objective truth is there that serves as a reminder that one day, we will pass on and die. In this, the atheist, if he or she is really truthful, has no hope - no anchor for the soul - nothing to get them through the heartaches and trials of life - they have nothing and only offer nothing. Though I used to claim I had hope in science, facts, truth, psychology, and philosophy these offered no hope beyond the grave we all will someday face.

So with that, as the objective relative of truth confronted me - atheist - what do you believe in?

What is the importance of your life anyways?

Atheism offers no reason to be responsible other than to fade into nothingness and therefore any good or evil they do is, well, pointless. So what do you believe in what hope do you have? A future that changes as sand shifts on the dunes? Your guiding principles are pointless and will not help you when you take your last breath at which time you will awake into a reality of truth you denied all your mortal life course - that is a fact.

I am not concerned in the least about how one thinks ADE and NDE's are mental illusions or real. Nor do I care about claims of moral superiority of atheist holding on to science, psychology, philosophy, that guides their truths and spins facts in such manner as granting the illusions that they are exempt. Fact is, one day, you'll pass on and meet the one you denied existing. He will answer your objections and expose what you are really like on the inside. His great love will reveal how you hide your heart from one willing to grant you a truer purpose for life than what you supposed. So how have you wasted your life in what you believe? Can what you believe in, science, psychology, philosophy, really save you from yourself? What hope do you have?

When I was an atheist, I had my pat answers and come back quips to obfuscate any issues that actually confront me with the truth that at that time in my life I had no hope, new no real truth, relied on idol of the mind that blinded me to live life as a lie. I would have never admitted this back then, of course not but the confrontation loomed - then I one day I took my last breath and only by God's grace I regained breath and am back. I really would like for any atheist or agnostic to avoid standing before the Governor of the Universe with the mind of putting him on trial for crimes he never committed and then discover how often they betrayed, mocked, hurt, lied, crucified relationships, denied, schemed, plotted, abandoned, rejected, look down the nose at others as that is what the Governors Love will expose and then it is too late. He, the great Governor of the Universe, because of love will not allow such into his domain of love because as to allow such to enter in an unchanged fallen state would bring ruin to heavenly love - that he will not allow. We were not designed to be separated from God, but that separation is ours alone to make. No one can escape...
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I'm curious; when you were an atheist; was atheism as much a part of your life as Christianity is now?

Ken

Audie wrote:Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

When it comes to beliefs, I often visualise a large rectangular table.
For some reason a light-coloured hardwood table with some nice wood grains and knots in.

This table represents the possible beliefs that someone can currently hold to, or at least contemplate with some seriousness.
On my table of beliefs you will not find positions like Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, Buddhims, Hare Krishnas, etc.
You will find Christianity, but not YEC, Global flood or millenial views which I find quite insane (sorry to others here who believe in them).
These views are all off the table to me and I can't intellectually consider them as belief options because they seem so absurd.

Then I have subset of beliefs that I'd perhaps consider foundational and practical to believe.
They include a belief in logic and reason - can be trusted to discover truth, virtues and moral values - justice, fairness, love, goodness, my senses, my own existence, other people and the world is really real, etc.

@Kenny and Audie:
I'd be interested to know what your table of beliefs look like.
Would Christianity be entirely off the table to you like Hinduism would be for us?
Or do you just have it pushed right up the back in a box with a big question mark on?
Just curious.

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

When it comes to beliefs, I often visualise a large rectangular table.
For some reason a light-coloured hardwood table with some nice wood grains and knots in.

This table represents the possible beliefs that someone can currently hold to, or at least contemplate with some seriousness.
On my table of beliefs you will not find positions like Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, Buddhims, Hare Krishnas, etc.
You will find Christianity, but not YEC, Global flood or millenial views which I find quite insane (sorry to others here who believe in them).
These views are all off the table to me and I can't intellectually consider them as belief options because they seem so absurd.

Then I have subset of beliefs that I'd perhaps consider foundational and practical to believe.
They include a belief in logic and reason - can be trusted to discover truth, virtues and moral values - justice, fairness, love, goodness, my senses, my own existence, other people and the world is really real, etc.

@Kenny and Audie:
I'd be interested to know what your table of beliefs look like.
Would Christianity be entirely off the table to you like Hinduism would be for us?
Or do you just have it pushed right up the back in a box with a big question mark on?
Just curious.

I dont think I do beliefs, in any sense that corresponds. Its kind of like you ask me for my table of
sports. Then ask where cricket or motorcycle racing is. Im a visual thinker some ways, but not that one.

What shape is a year, does it go clockwise or ccw? I can visualize that.

I have a hard time understanding a religious mindset...I think an awful lot of
what you called self professed atheists are just that. Self professed only.

I find nothing of a religious belief in myself. No table, no religion to put there.
I dont know why people spend time thinking religious thoughts.

I am curious too. Looking back at you....

Audie wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

When it comes to beliefs, I often visualise a large rectangular table.
For some reason a light-coloured hardwood table with some nice wood grains and knots in.

This table represents the possible beliefs that someone can currently hold to, or at least contemplate with some seriousness.
On my table of beliefs you will not find positions like Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, Buddhims, Hare Krishnas, etc.
You will find Christianity, but not YEC, Global flood or millenial views which I find quite insane (sorry to others here who believe in them).
These views are all off the table to me and I can't intellectually consider them as belief options because they seem so absurd.

Then I have subset of beliefs that I'd perhaps consider foundational and practical to believe.
They include a belief in logic and reason - can be trusted to discover truth, virtues and moral values - justice, fairness, love, goodness, my senses, my own existence, other people and the world is really real, etc.

@Kenny and Audie:
I'd be interested to know what your table of beliefs look like.
Would Christianity be entirely off the table to you like Hinduism would be for us?
Or do you just have it pushed right up the back in a box with a big question mark on?
Just curious.

I dont think I do beliefs, in any sense that corresponds. Its kind of like you ask me for my table of
sports. Then ask where cricket or motorcycle racing is. Im a visual thinker some ways, but not that one.

What shape is a year, does it go clockwise or ccw? I can visualize that.

I have a hard time understanding a religious mindset...I think an awful lot of
what you called self professed atheists are just that. Self professed only.

I find nothing of a religious belief in myself. No table, no religion to put there.
I dont know why people spend time thinking religious thoughts.

I am curious too. Looking back at you....

So if I understand you correctly, it's like a category error for me to be asking you about such things?
More me trying to push my Theism onto you ie., Atheism only exists in response to those who believe in "odd" things like God.
Otherwise Atheism wouldn't actually exist as a position. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just trying to understand your thinking).

If that's correct, isn't it even feasible for you to entertain as a thought experience the idea that "intelligence" caused everything.
For what reason? I don't know.

I guess I'm perplexed as to why many seem to think that "unintelligent matter" is the cause of "intelligence" rather than the other way round.
That really puzzles me, as it seems more logical that an "intelligence" would be the root cause.

This says nothing of God, gods or religion really except what has otherwise become stigmatised as such by society.
I'd think with a neutral and unbiased person, as one might typically expect an Agnostic to be, they would have both logical possibilities on their table.

I don't want to impose a standard caricature of an "Atheist", but as I see, many have their own beliefs about the world.

For example, a great many appear to believe in Empiricism.
That there is an objective reality outside that we can really sense and understand.
Although not all would believe this, by far perhaps the majority in the Western world.
That our universe is all that exists and possibly a closed system (e.g., no interference from supernatural sources).

Science itself prompts us with big philosophical questions to theorise over.
For example, the universe expanding means if we roll it backwards we end up at one extremely condensed point that'd be a beginning or perhaps where everything may break down.
Some therefore posit a multiverse, others to talk of negative and positive energy cancelling each other out or something the sort, or others to just shrug and are content to not reflect any further.

Why do the physical laws of our universe exist as they do, quite stable rather than chaotic?
They seem rather contingent as though they could be otherwise (as some physicists posit in multiverse scenarios).

Re: life's complexities to get started, some actually even consider panspermia.

Without God's existence, then I see a whole range of questions that need filling in with explanations...
Unless one isn't interested in thinking about such things, many believe all difference sorts of things in these matters.

Just I find alternative scenarios on these foundational questions interesting I suppose.

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

When it comes to beliefs, I often visualise a large rectangular table.
For some reason a light-coloured hardwood table with some nice wood grains and knots in.

This table represents the possible beliefs that someone can currently hold to, or at least contemplate with some seriousness.
On my table of beliefs you will not find positions like Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, Buddhims, Hare Krishnas, etc.
You will find Christianity, but not YEC, Global flood or millenial views which I find quite insane (sorry to others here who believe in them).
These views are all off the table to me and I can't intellectually consider them as belief options because they seem so absurd.

Then I have subset of beliefs that I'd perhaps consider foundational and practical to believe.
They include a belief in logic and reason - can be trusted to discover truth, virtues and moral values - justice, fairness, love, goodness, my senses, my own existence, other people and the world is really real, etc.

@Kenny and Audie:
I'd be interested to know what your table of beliefs look like.
Would Christianity be entirely off the table to you like Hinduism would be for us?
Or do you just have it pushed right up the back in a box with a big question mark on?
Just curious.

I have always believed that the truth should ALWAYS be up for question; if there ever comes a time when I have a problem with questions; that would tell me there is something very wrong with what I am calling the truth Thus nothing on my table is guarenteed a perment residence, what I believe is constantly questioned and under threat of removal or update. The contents of my table are constantly changing, as I learn and grow I am constantly removing and adding things to and from my table of what I believe. I have added and taken things away as a direct result of some of the conversations I have with people on this site.
There are lots of things on my table; too many to list, but currently there are no religions on my table. I would hate to think I could ever become the type of person to remove the possibility of anything I consider positive, from having a chance of getting on my table; if I became such a person I could no longer grow.

I guess to answer your question; religion is in the back in a box with a big question mark on it.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

When it comes to beliefs, I often visualise a large rectangular table.
For some reason a light-coloured hardwood table with some nice wood grains and knots in.

This table represents the possible beliefs that someone can currently hold to, or at least contemplate with some seriousness.
On my table of beliefs you will not find positions like Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, Buddhims, Hare Krishnas, etc.
You will find Christianity, but not YEC, Global flood or millenial views which I find quite insane (sorry to others here who believe in them).
These views are all off the table to me and I can't intellectually consider them as belief options because they seem so absurd.

Then I have subset of beliefs that I'd perhaps consider foundational and practical to believe.
They include a belief in logic and reason - can be trusted to discover truth, virtues and moral values - justice, fairness, love, goodness, my senses, my own existence, other people and the world is really real, etc.

@Kenny and Audie:
I'd be interested to know what your table of beliefs look like.
Would Christianity be entirely off the table to you like Hinduism would be for us?
Or do you just have it pushed right up the back in a box with a big question mark on?
Just curious.

I have always believed that the truth should ALWAYS be up for question; if there ever comes a time when I have a problem with questions; that would tell me there is something very wrong with what I believe. Thus nothing on my table is guarenteed a perment residence, what I believe is constantly questioned and under threat of removal or update. The contents of my table are constantly changing, as I learn and grow I am constantly removing and adding things to and from my table of what I believe. I have added and taken things away as a direct result of some of the conversations I have with people on this site.
There are lots of things on my table; too many to list, but currently there are no religions on my table. I would hate to think I could ever become the type of person to remove the possibility of anything I consider positive, from having a chance of getting on my table; if I became such a person I could no longer grow.

I guess to answer your question; religion is in the back in a box with a big question mark on it.

Ken

That's a great response Ken

melanie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Audie wrote:Just so one keeps in mind that what it is for one person to be an atheist in no way means its the same for another.

Christianity, for example, was just something "out there" like the way Hinduism or
the like may exist out there somewhere, but is of no interest.

When it comes to beliefs, I often visualise a large rectangular table.
For some reason a light-coloured hardwood table with some nice wood grains and knots in.

This table represents the possible beliefs that someone can currently hold to, or at least contemplate with some seriousness.
On my table of beliefs you will not find positions like Hinduism, Atheism, Scientology, Buddhims, Hare Krishnas, etc.
You will find Christianity, but not YEC, Global flood or millenial views which I find quite insane (sorry to others here who believe in them).
These views are all off the table to me and I can't intellectually consider them as belief options because they seem so absurd.

Then I have subset of beliefs that I'd perhaps consider foundational and practical to believe.
They include a belief in logic and reason - can be trusted to discover truth, virtues and moral values - justice, fairness, love, goodness, my senses, my own existence, other people and the world is really real, etc.

@Kenny and Audie:
I'd be interested to know what your table of beliefs look like.
Would Christianity be entirely off the table to you like Hinduism would be for us?
Or do you just have it pushed right up the back in a box with a big question mark on?
Just curious.

I have always believed that the truth should ALWAYS be up for question; if there ever comes a time when I have a problem with questions; that would tell me there is something very wrong with what I believe. Thus nothing on my table is guarenteed a perment residence, what I believe is constantly questioned and under threat of removal or update. The contents of my table are constantly changing, as I learn and grow I am constantly removing and adding things to and from my table of what I believe. I have added and taken things away as a direct result of some of the conversations I have with people on this site.
There are lots of things on my table; too many to list, but currently there are no religions on my table. I would hate to think I could ever become the type of person to remove the possibility of anything I consider positive, from having a chance of getting on my table; if I became such a person I could no longer grow.

I guess to answer your question; religion is in the back in a box with a big question mark on it.

Ken

That's a great response Ken

Thank-you

K

Squible, don't think I've ever asked what you felt when Atheist. Perhaps you don't mind sharing here?

Can you relate to Audie's sentiments on what you felt towards religion, or even Christianity in particular?

What of your Dad and his views? I can't picture it would have been pretty. Do you recall how you felt towards religion and Christianity?
Was it on/off the table of your beliefs? Did you ever consider some of the deeper questions or such just didn't interest you?

Personally, I'm unable to associate. Maybe that's my interest.
I was raised with Christianity. Have been Christian as long as I can remember.
Kind of lucky in that respect, but it also means I can't related to others as well who have taken a different path in life.

Good questions brother!

Not many have ever asked. I would say my journey has gone through many phases...

Kurieuo wrote: Squible, don't think I've ever asked what you felt when Atheist. Perhaps you don't mind sharing here?

No problems, always happy to share. I will say what I am about to share is not from the intellectual side, but rather from the depths of what it is to be human experientially. Some of what I will share is deeply personal, but I never mind sharing it with others and they can do with it what they will. I believe good people for the most part frequent this board.

I would say that I have had momentary periods in my life where I have out right denied God's existence. These moments really come down to the hard moments in my life. I had quite an abusive upbringing so I would question why God would put me in such a situation if he existed. As I have become older and have kids a lot more understanding has actually come out of it all. Now, I do not find the problem of evil incompatible with Gods existence. Anyway, at the time during my brief moments of denying God I would have to say it would not have been for intellectual reasons despite making out they were, but rather emotional/moral/spiritual.

It would be more correct for me to say that I have had long periods of agnosticism. However, there have been a few periods where I would say I held to apatheism, which is I didn't care if God existed. If I am to be completely honest, the times when I didn't care about Gods existence would have to have been the most dangerous and destructive periods of my life.

During any of those times above, I would have to say there was this yearning or void in my life nothing would fill. The thing I have learned now as a Christian is that we humans will always worship something. If it is not God then it will be idols like money, wanting to be the best at X, self image, wanting possessions and so on. The list of idols is endless.

Kurieuo wrote: Can you relate to Audie's sentiments on what you felt towards religion, or even Christianity in particular?

I believe so, at least in part. For me I just thought all religions were the all the same hairs from the same head. Simply put just one of many paths to God, many of which really had no justification. However now I see that they are superficially the same and fundamentally different. Christianity is truly unique, in that it has the message of Grace.

Kurieuo wrote: What of your Dad and his views? I can't picture it would have been pretty.

Dad, what can I say.. His views have always been quite hostile. While JW's are not Christians (I believe they preach a false gospel), I have some interesting stories about weekend mornings when they would knock on our door. One I have never forgotten was when they knocked one morning when we were about to eat breakfast. Dad answered the door by saying "What do you want?" they said we would like to come in and let Jesus into your house.. Now I must say at that time he did respect Jesus, because he responded by saying "He can come in, but you lot %^&! off and close the !@#!!%#! gate on the way out!". My mum was livid, and pointed out how rude he was, while dad sat down to breakfast he responded with, "What? what? I said Jesus could come in".

Dad has always been hostile towards Christianity and family members who are also Christians. So imagine when he found out 2 years ago I was.... I have had to deal with some serious challenges, needless to say he has not expected some of the responses I have given him. I think he is suprised that I have actually thought long and hard about my position. I would say now he has come to terms with the fact I am a Christian, and he has seen a distinct change in me for the better. I see dad full of pride, someone who wants to be his own master but also bitter toward the world and broken, He needs love and acceptance and to feel valued.

Kurieuo wrote: Do you recall how you felt towards religion and Christianity?

As I said before I just thought religions were all the same....I however would say that growing up I was very critical of Christianity most of all, at one stage I thought many Christians were simply nuts. My aunty, in particular tried to witness to me from time to time, I thought she was speaking complete rubbish and can remember dismissing her quite rudely. I would also just walk out shaking my head when any other family members (ie:cousins) would talk about it.

Now I know this is not answering the question but I feel it is important to open up about my journey into Christianity...

About 8 years ago I started to become open to listening to what Christians had to say and started going to church. Why I am not sure.. I think I found some level headed ones . I went for about 5-6 years, thought the messages were good and helped with life in general but never really accepted Christianity like I do today. I would have classed myself as a nominal Christian perhaps as time went on.

As I said earlier, I had an abusive upbringing mostly from Dad, consequently I left home with a backpack and didn't talk to my parents for almost 10 years. About the time when I first started to get some understanding of Christ, I also heard through my grandmother that Dad was very ill. (He still is I would say he has a few years left). Anyway, I had this extraordinarily profound dream where his death certificate with a dotted line along with a pen floated before me. It was that real I almost feel now I could pick it up. Now, as it stopped, a calming yet authoritative voice asked, "What would you write?"" I hesitated... and it repeated it again but this time with more authority... And I wrote "I forgive you". As I write this now I thank Christ for what he did, for if it wasn't for him I don't know if I could have done that. But this may surprise you, I still at the time didn't commit to Christ. It was about 5 years later that I did. Anyway about 2 weeks after that dream, dad phoned me and we started to mend bridges.

As a Christian now I think to when Jesus was on the cross, beaten, bruised, mocked and left with no dignity and he said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing".


And also when I look back at the struggles then and current I hold closely to the following....

2 co 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Here’s a song I completely relate about that verse as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyUPz6_TciY

The bottom line for me is Christianity corresponds with reality and at the most profound depth especially experientially if one would allow and humble themselves to explore that. It is ultimately about relationship with God warts and all. But in order for that one must allow God into their life and that can only happen once your heart is open (and usually raw). It is there you find complete joy and peace with Christ, no matter what the season in life.

I don't want it to come across as gloomy, but ultimately it is how I came to know Christ and since then there has been a lot of joy, love and acceptance..

Kurieuo wrote: Was it on/off the table of your beliefs? Did you ever consider some of the deeper questions or such just didn't interest you?

This is a tricky question. Growing up I would look up at the cosmos and deeply question its existence including my own existence and life in general. I have generally for the most part had an annoying intuition that God exists. Generally in my life I have had a deep yearning for the existential questions. As I said previously I went through periods of atheism, apatheism mostly agnosticism. However I always felt incomplete and empty. I also was open to spirituality, I explored the all is one concept (monism) however found it empty too. Eventually after quite a profound experience I committed my life to Christ and have never looked back. Even then I tried to put some naturalistic spin on what happened but the experience continued even while alone for almost two weeks. I would also share that at the time I had a bad chest infection (for 12 months) that no antibiotic was curing, I was sick and also not in a good place with depression. Things weren't great at home either.. I found out weeks after that my wife prayed and pleaded with God that I would come to know Christ. Anyway I also asked for healing at my point of conversion, and those who are not believers make of it what you will, but the infection went away within days after having it for almost 12 months. I also stopped with antidepressants and haven't had depression since. Basically it took God to slap me across the face with a big set of gloves and drag me into his kingdom. And now, wow those questions and the exploration is even deeper then ever before. I would say that prior to my conversion the bible basically made no sense whatsoever, I thought it was baloney! But profoundly literally to the day of my coming Christ the words made sense, and still do more than ever. I would also emphasize again that the peace and joy with Christ nothing can compare too, yes we still have seasons of struggles but it makes us complete.

Kurieuo wrote: Personally, I'm unable to associate. Maybe that's my interest.
I was raised with Christianity. Have been Christian as long as I can remember.
Kind of lucky in that respect, but it also means I can't related to others as well who have taken a different path in life.

I think you do well, brother. I have enjoyed our many conversations and honestly believe you sincerely try to see things though other peoples eyes and perspectives. So ultimately I don't think your Christian upbringing has limited you personally in any way. I believe it is ultimately in Gods hands anyway.


Cheers!

Its been my experience that the biggest issue that drives a believer to be an atheist and keeps many an atheist an atheist is the problem of suffering, natural suffering.
Religion does not have a satisfactory answer to that problem and because of that, many a believer has been made and atheist and many an atheist remains one.
Especially in regards to Christianity.

PaulSacramento wrote:Its been my experience that the biggest issue that drives a believer to be an atheist and keeps many an atheist an atheist is the problem of suffering, natural suffering.
Religion does not have a satisfactory answer to that problem and because of that, many a believer has been made and atheist and many an atheist remains one.
Especially in regards to Christianity.

Sure.. However I would say now that the non-believer doesn't understand Christianity if they have come to that conclusion.

Squible wrote:Good questions brother!

Not many have ever asked. I would say my journey has gone through many phases...

Kurieuo wrote: Squible, don't think I've ever asked what you felt when Atheist. Perhaps you don't mind sharing here?

No problems, always happy to share. I will say what I am about to share is not from the intellectual side, but rather from the depths of what it is to be human experientially. Some of what I will share is deeply personal, but I never mind sharing it with others and they can do with it what they will. I believe good people for the most part frequent this board.

I would say that I have had momentary periods in my life where I have ought right denied God's existence. These moments really come down to the hard moments in my life. I had quite an abusive upbringing so I would question why God would put me in such a situation if he existed. As I have become older and have kids a lot more understanding has actually come out of it all. Now, I do not find the problem of evil incompatible with Gods existence. Anyway, at the time during my brief moments of denying God I would have to say it would not have been for intellectual reasons despite making out they were, but rather emotional/moral/spiritual.

It would be more correct for me to say that I have had long periods of agnosticism. However, there have been a few periods where I would say I held to apatheism, which is I didn't care if God existed. If I am to be completely honest, the times when I didn't care about Gods existence would have to have been the most dangerous and destructive periods of my life.

During any of those times above, I would have to say there was this yearning or void in my life nothing would fill. The thing I have learned now as a Christian is that we humans will always worship something. If it is not God then it will be idols like money, wanting to be the best at X, self image, wanting possessions and so on. The list of idols is endless.

Kurieuo wrote: Can you relate to Audie's sentiments on what you felt towards religion, or even Christianity in particular?

I believe so, at least in part. For me I just thought all religions were the all the same hairs from the same head. Simply put just one of many paths to God, many of which really had no justification. However now I see that they are superficially the same and fundamentally different. Christianity is truly unique, in that it has the message of Grace.

Kurieuo wrote: What of your Dad and his views? I can't picture it would have been pretty.

Dad, what can I say.. His views have always been quite hostile. While JW's are not Christians (I believe they preach a false gospel), I have some interesting stories about weekend mornings when they would knock on our door. One I have never forgotten was when they knocked one morning when we were about to eat breakfast. Dad answered the door by saying "What do you want?" they said we would like to come in and let Jesus into your house.. Now I must say at that time he did respect Jesus, because he responded by saying "He can come in, but you lot %^&! off and close the !@#!!%#! gate on the way out!". My mum was livid, and pointed out how rude he was, while dad sat down to breakfast he responded with, "What? what? I said Jesus could come in".

Dad has always been hostile towards Christianity and family members who are also Christians. So imagine when he found out 2 years ago I was.... I have had to deal with some serious challenges, needless to say he has not expected some of the responses I have given him. I think he is suprised that I have actually thought long and hard about my position. I would say now he has come to terms with the fact I am a Christian, and he has seen a distinct change in me for the better. I see dad full of pride, someone who wants to be his own master but also bitter toward the world and broken, He needs love and acceptance and to feel valued.

Kurieuo wrote: Do you recall how you felt towards religion and Christianity?

As I said before I just thought religions were all the same....I however would say that growing up I was very critical of Christianity most of all, at one stage I thought many Christians were simply nuts. My aunty, in particular tried to witness to me from time to time, I thought she was speaking complete rubbish and can remember dismissing her quite rudely. I would also just walk out shaking my head when any other family members (ie:cousins) would talk about it.

Now I know this is not answering the question but I feel it is important to open up about my journey into Christianity...

About 8 years ago I started to become open to listening to what Christians had to say and started going to church. Why I am not sure.. I think I found some level headed ones . I went for about 5-6 years, thought the messages were good and helped with life in general but never really accepted Christianity like I do today. I would have classed myself as a nominal Christian perhaps as time went on.

As I said earlier, I had an abusive upbringing mostly from Dad, consequently I left home with a backpack and didn't talk to my parents for almost 10 years. About the time when I first started to get some understanding of Christ, I also heard through my grandmother that Dad was very ill. (He still is I would say he has a few years left). Anyway, I had this extraordinarily profound dream where his death certificate with a dotted line along with a pen floated before me. It was that real I almost feel now I could pick it up. Now, as it stopped, a calming yet authoritative voice asked, "What would you write?"" I hesitated... and it repeated it again but this time with more authority... And I wrote "I forgive you". As I write this now I thank Christ for what he did, for if it wasn't for him I don't know if I could have done that. But this may surprise you, I still at the time didn't commit to Christ. It was about 5 years later that I did. Anyway about 2 weeks after that dream, dad phoned me and we started to mend bridges.

As a Christian now I think to when Jesus was on the cross, beaten, bruised, mocked and left with no dignity and he said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing".


And also when I look back at the struggles then and current I hold closely to the following....

2 co 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Here’s a song I completely relate about that verse as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyUPz6_TciY

The bottom line for me is Christianity corresponds with reality and at the most profound depth especially experientially if one would allow and humble themselves to explore that. It is ultimately about relationship with God warts and all. But in order for that one must allow God into their life and that can only happen once your heart is open.

Kurieuo wrote: Was it on/off the table of your beliefs? Did you ever consider some of the deeper questions or such just didn't interest you?

This is a tricky question. Growing up I would look up at the cosmos and deeply question its existence including my own existence and life in general. I have generally for the most part had an annoying intuition that God exists. Generally in my life I have had a deep yearning for the existential questions. As I said previously I went through periods of atheism, apatheism mostly agnosticism. However I always felt incomplete and empty. I also was open to spirituality, I explored the all is one concept (monism) however found it empty too. Eventually after quite a profound experience I committed my life to Christ and have never looked back. Even then I tried to put some naturalistic spin on what happened but the experience continued even while alone for almost two weeks. I would also share that at the time I had a bad chest infection (for 12 months) that no antibiotic was curing, I was sick and also not in a good place with depression. Things weren't great at home either.. I found out weeks after that my wife prayed and pleaded with God that I would come to know Christ. Anyway I also asked for healing at my point of conversion, and those who are not believers make of it what you will, but the infection went away within days after having it for almost 12 months. Basically it took God to slap me across the face with a big set of gloves and drag me into his kingdom. And now, wow those questions and the exploration is even deeper then ever before. I would say that prior to my conversion the bible basically made no sense whatsoever, I thought it was baloney! But profoundly literally to the day of my coming Christ the words made sense, and still do more than ever.

Kurieuo wrote: Personally, I'm unable to associate. Maybe that's my interest.
I was raised with Christianity. Have been Christian as long as I can remember.
Kind of lucky in that respect, but it also means I can't related to others as well who have taken a different path in life.

I think you do well, brother. I have enjoyed our many conversations and honestly believe you sincerely try to see things though other peoples eyes and perspectives. So ultimately I don't think your Christian upbringing has limited you personally in any way. I believe it is ultimately in Gods hands anyway.


Cheers!

Thanks Squible
For sharing your story, I resonate with it on a number of levels.
I was raised christian from one side of my family but experienced significant abuse. It left me scarred and angry. It took me a long time and an uphill battle to get to where I am now. It took a bit of dragging and wake up calls from God to set me straight. But sometimes the journey with all of its pitfalls is part of the victory.
Blessings!

melanie wrote: Thanks Squible
For sharing your story, I resonate with it on a number of levels.
I was raised christian from one side of my family but experienced significant abuse. It left me scarred and angry. It took me a long time and an uphill battle to get to where I am now. It took a bit of dragging and wake up calls from God to set me straight. But sometimes the journey with all of its pitfalls is part of the victory.
Blessings!

Anytime! Absolutely understand where you are coming from too and completely agree...

However, I still find God sets me straight.

God Bless!

Squible wrote:

melanie wrote: Thanks Squible
For sharing your story, I resonate with it on a number of levels.
I was raised christian from one side of my family but experienced significant abuse. It left me scarred and angry. It took me a long time and an uphill battle to get to where I am now. It took a bit of dragging and wake up calls from God to set me straight. But sometimes the journey with all of its pitfalls is part of the victory.
Blessings!

Anytime! Absolutely understand where you are coming from too and completely agree...

However, I still find God sets me straight.

God Bless!

Ha I'm a work in progress also.
Still being set straight everyday, over and over again!
Three steps forward two steps back but inching in the right direction