Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[Jac3510]

No, their fruit is iniquity because it is bad. "Bad fruit" is a metaphor for what they are producing. "Iniquity" is a judgment of the nature of what they produce--what they have produced is bad. If what they had produced was "good fruit" (the metaphor again) it would not be called iniquity but something else entirely.

This is a good exercise for you. You are so used to thinking about Scripture through the lens of your theology that you can't see the words in front of you.

Look at a prophet. What does a prophet produce? Let me give you some other examples:

What does a carpenter produce? Crafts of various kinds, e.g., wheels and houses.
What does a doctor produce? Counsel for health, e.g., prescriptions for medication
What does a lawyer produce? Legal counsel and related documents
What does a farmer produce? Food
What does a scholar produce? Research and knowledge

Now, any of those productions can be good or bad. A well made craft is mark of a good carpenter. A poorly made craft of a poor carpenter. Good medicine is the mark of a good doctor. Medical malpractice is the mark of a bad doctor. Good legal advice is the mark of a good lawyer. Legal malpractice is the mark of a bad lawyer. Good, edible food is the mark of a good farmer. No food or rotten food is the mark of a bad farmer. Good, solid research is the mark of a good scholar. Poor, fallacious research is the mark of a bad scholar. So you see that you know the tree by its fruit.

Again, I ask: what is the fruit of a prophet. You already hinted at it in an answer you gave above. Ask yourself what a prophet does. Stop over-thinking things and just take the words at face value.

[RickD]

I do not know what you think it is if you do not think it is there iniquities

Jesus said they were to be cast in fire because of the bad fruit and then explaining it He said there going to hell because of there iniquities

So I guess the bad fruit is there iniquities

Lemme give you a hint. The word begins with a d, and ends with octrine.

Does that help?

[jpbg33]

You are right there teaching is there bad fruit but what we do as Christians shows other how Christians live. Not only are preacher's soppiest to proclaim the gospel but we all are suppose to be proclaiming it and one way we do that is by the evidence of our actions. The bible says Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rom_6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

our fruit is not only what we preach behind a pulpit but the way we live our lives.

[RickD]

Jac, I love you. If you continue with this, you have more patience than I could ever have. God bless you!

[Jac3510]

You are right there teaching is there bad fruit but what we do as Christians shows other how Christians live. Not only are preacher's soppiest to proclaim the gospel but we all are suppose to be proclaiming it and one way we do that is by the evidence of our actions. The bible says Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Rom_6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

our fruit is not only what we preach behind a pulpit but the way we live our lives.

It might be that our fruit is how we live. But in Matt 7, it is not. This is your basic problem. You string passages together out of context. If you want to jump to ANOTHER passage YET AGAIN, then fine, but don't run back to trees "burning" to imply people are going to hell.

Now, back to Matt 7. If the fruit of a prophet is his doctrine, then bad fruit is his bad doctrine. That's not anything new, by the way. Jesus is just getting at what Moses already said in Deut 13:1-3. Look at that passage before we look at the rest of Matt 7:

• If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Now this is REALLY important, because Jesus is directly contradicting your claim above. You keep talking about people's behavior as being a part of the fruit. But look at the passage again. The DOCTRINE THEY PREACH is the fruit. And why is that important. Because you will know them by their FRUIT--by their DOCTRINE. That's important because the false prophets--the wolves--come in sheep's clothing.

In other words, the false prophets look like the rest of the sheep. What does it mean that they look like the sheep? Obviously it isn't referring to their physical appearance. It isn't referring to their doctrine--what they teach--because that's how you find out that they are really false prophets. So tell me, what is the sheep's clothing? How do they look like the sheep?

(Hint: notice that this is in Matthew where Jesus is constantly blasting the Pharisees -- what made them look like real sheep when they were really just wolves?)

[Jac3510]

Jac, I love you. If you continue with this, you have more patience than I could ever have. God bless you!

I'm under the delusion that there are people who read some of these exchanges, so this strikes me as a good case study in how and how not to study Scripture. I'm going through all this for other readers, not for jpbg. The chances of him realizing he is one of the false prophets is rather slim. But he can teach others here a lot in terms of how not to study Scripture, and I'm hoping to at least demonstrate that. *shrug*

But who knows, maybe Prov 26:5 applies here!

[RickD]

Jac wrote:
In other words, the false prophets look like the rest of the sheep. What does it mean that they look like the sheep? Obviously it isn't referring to their physical appearance. It isn't referring to their doctrine--what they teach--because that's how you find out that they are really false prophets. So tell me, what is the sheep's clothing? How do they look like the sheep?

(Hint: notice that this is in Matthew where Jesus is constantly blasting the Pharisees -- what made them look like real sheep when they were really just wolves?)

Jac,

That makes perfect sense when you explain it that way. The pharisees were known for their strict avoidance of outward sin. In other words, on the outside, they appeared righteous.

Or they appeared to show good "fruit", as Jpbg is talking about. So to people like jpbg who judge by the outward appearance, the Pharisees appear to be sheep.

[Audie]

Jac, I love you. If you continue with this, you have more patience than I could ever have. God bless you!

I'm under the delusion that there are people who read some of these exchanges, so this strikes me as a good case study in how and how not to study Scripture. I'm going through all this for other readers, not for jpbg. The chances of him realizing he is one of the false prophets is rather slim. But he can teach others here a lot in terms of how not to study Scripture, and I'm hoping to at least demonstrate that. *shrug*

But who knows, maybe Prov 26:5 applies here!

0

If its equivalent to his study of biology / earth history, it pretty bad.

[Storyteller]

Jac, I love you. If you continue with this, you have more patience than I could ever have. God bless you!

I'm under the delusion that there are people who read some of these exchanges, so this strikes me as a good case study in how and how not to study Scripture. I'm going through all this for other readers, not for jpbg. The chances of him realizing he is one of the false prophets is rather slim. But he can teach others here a lot in terms of how not to study Scripture, and I'm hoping to at least demonstrate that. *shrug*

But who knows, maybe Prov 26:5 applies here!

I do, and it is.

[1over137]

You are doing a good job here, Jac.
Thank you and God bless.

[UsagiTsukino]

Question what of these who are christian and change religions? Are they lost forever?

[RickD]

Question what of these who are christian and change religions? Are they lost forever?

How are you defining "christian" in this scenario?

[UsagiTsukino]

One who had accepted Jesus Christ already but than steps back a bit

[RickD]

Usagi,

First off, I'm not sure why one who has trusted in Christ, would want to believe in another religion that cannot save. But nonetheless, If a believer cannot lose salvation, then your example would be included too.

So, no. A believer cannot lose eternal life. Period. Otherwise it wouldn't be eternal life.

[UsagiTsukino]

Even if they switch religions? Like from Christianity to some pagan religion or now atheist