"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
So the properties of what it is to be intelligent existed in living creatures?Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 amYes; only after living creatures came to be.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:18 amSo, it came to be only when living creatures came to be?
Yes I am, Ken. Because non-intelligent things have NO abilities to do anything, much create or design anything. Your seeming speculation for what non-intelligent things might be able to do is unwarranted to say the least.Ken: Are you are assuming material beings were created and designed rather than evolved from non-intelligent materials that may have always existed?
Eventually; yes.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:58 amSo the properties of what it is to be intelligent existed in living creatures?Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 amYes; only after living creatures came to be.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:18 amSo, it came to be only when living creatures came to be?Kenny wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:47 amYes.PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:26 am
So, before there were living beings, there was no intelligence?
Philip wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:48 pmKen: Are you are assuming material beings were created and designed rather than evolved from non-intelligent materials that may have always existed?Non intelligent things evolve/change all the time!I don't believe they know what happened prior to the singularity that expanded in what is known as the Big Bang. Do you?
Does that make any sense?Nicki wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:14 pmI can kind of see where Kenny's coming from here - intelligence is just a property living beings can have; if someone's brain works well and that results in accurate and helpful communication and efficient actions (I can't think of better words!) from them, we say they're intelligent. I'm not sure what that implies for theism vs atheism though.
Yes that makes a lot of sense.Nicki wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:04 pmDoes that make any sense?Nicki wrote: ↑Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:14 pmI can kind of see where Kenny's coming from here - intelligence is just a property living beings can have; if someone's brain works well and that results in accurate and helpful communication and efficient actions (I can't think of better words!) from them, we say they're intelligent. I'm not sure what that implies for theism vs atheism though.
What it implies is that a being is designed to have intelligence and THAT takes an intelligent designer to create that being so designed. Non-intelligent things did not brilliant begin assembling an astonishing universe in mere minutes. Read about the Big Bang's first three minutes alone - there is not time for evolution, etc. And non-intelligent things cannot create anything - and yet, in mere minutes, upon the Big Bang beginning, we see physical things, non-existent mere minutes before, come into existence and being functioning with immense precision, interaction and on a vast scale. These first things are so sophisticated, that our best scientists and researchers, after nearly a century, can scarcely understand them. So the Intelligence that designed and began assembling and controlling those first physical things has to be brilliant beyond any intelligence known to man! That's what it implies!Nicki: if someone's brain works well and that results in accurate and helpful communication and efficient actions (I can't think of better words!) from them, we say they're intelligent. I'm not sure what that implies for theism vs atheism though.
NickiPhilip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:10 amWhat it implies is that a being is designed to have intelligence and THAT takes an intelligent designer to create that being so designed. Non-intelligent things did not brilliant begin assembling an astonishing universe in mere minutes. Read about the Big Bang's first three minutes alone - there is not time for evolution, etc. And non-intelligent things cannot create anything - and yet, in mere minutes, upon the Big Bang beginning, we see physical things, non-existent mere minutes before, come into existence and being functioning with immense precision, interaction and on a vast scale. These first things are so sophisticated, that our best scientists and researchers, after nearly a century, can scarcely understand them. So the Intelligence that designed and began assembling and controlling those first physical things has to be brilliant beyond any intelligence known to man! That's what it implies!Nicki: if someone's brain works well and that results in accurate and helpful communication and efficient actions (I can't think of better words!) from them, we say they're intelligent. I'm not sure what that implies for theism vs atheism though.
NO, Ken - at this point in our discussion, I didn't say GOD did it - I said it requires an Intelligence to create, design, control, assemble the things, their designs and functions that immediately came into physical existence, upon the Big Bang beginning. But you fail to address this obvious point - as you are attempting to avoid this obvious point you have no answers for, by immediately making it a question about God. Again, one can argue over WHAT that creative intelligence was, but no one can credibly argue over the necessity that it must have had key attributes revealing what only an intelligence can produce. As well, if you insist no intelligent agent was required, then you should attempt to refute the fact that non-intelligent things have ZERO ability to do what only an intelligent being could. You cluelessly mention evolution, as if that would provide an answer, and yet we are talking astonishingly complex things forming within mere minutes, and began operating with astounding and necessarily precise interactions and orchestration. And yet, no human has such immense intelligence or capability. And no non-intelligent things has ever show even any simple creative abilities. And science teaches that, within moments of the Big Bang beginning, on a vast scale, extraordinary physical things of remarkable, brilliant designs immediately appeared and begin assembling themselves in ways still barely understandable to all of the physicists who have researched and studied the origins of the universe. So incredible, that no one has any idea how a universe, moments old, immediately included such amazing things with such wondrous functionalities.Ken: Nicki, you’ve asked the wrong question dear. All questions require the per-determined answer of “God did it” and the way your question was asked, it had little to do with God and was more about how the brain works, how we label beings who think this way, blah, blah, blah...
Ahh.... Looks like we've come full circle huh? I think the last time I've answered this question was post #239.Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:40 pmNO, Ken - at this point in our discussion, I didn't say GOD did it - I said it requires an Intelligence to create, design, control, assemble the things, their designs and functions that immediately came into physical existence, upon the Big Bang beginning. But you fail to address this obvious point - as you are attempting to avoid this obvious point you have no answers for, by immediately making it a question about God. Again, one can argue over WHAT that creative intelligence was, but no one can credibly argue over the necessity that it must have had key attributes revealing what only an intelligence can produce.Ken: Nicki, you’ve asked the wrong question dear. All questions require the per-determined answer of “God did it” and the way your question was asked, it had little to do with God and was more about how the brain works, how we label beings who think this way, blah, blah, blah...
Ken, you haven't even remotely credibly addressed my questions!Ken: Ahh.... Looks like we've come full circle huh? I think the last time I've answered this question was post #239.
Ken: Ahh.... Looks like we've come full circle huh? I think the last time I've answered this question was post #239.
Yes that’s what I said.Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:49 pmKen, you haven't even remotely credibly addressed my questions!
From your post 239: "Just because in our daily lives everything that exists seems to have been created and therefore has to have had a creator, doesn’t mean that is the case for all entities within the Universe, including the Universe itself."
How on Earth did you conclude I meant anything like that??? Bruh; if I made the (absurd) claim that rocks and other non-intelligent things could create (create meaning to bring into existence) intelligent beings, that would still be creators creating stuff; right? My point was that you have no proof that anything was ever created.Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:49 pmBecause what you are effectively saying in that quote is, somewhere in the universe, it is possible for non-intelligent things to create beings (or ANYTHING else) capable of having and utilizing intelligence, or for them to create and assemble things of massive complexity and functionality. Astounding what you seem to think things, capability wise, akin to unconscious rocks, can do.
Bringing in Einstein may not be helping your argument. From where you're standing, Einstein is indistinguishable from Kenny and me.Philip wrote: And thus, various scientists take these observations and, for many of them, it plays a powerful role in leading them to believe in God or at least a deist type of god. And these same incredible, otherwise, immensely / statistically improbable things have led a very significant percentage of scientists (many of them Christians) to their belief in some higher Intelligence that is responsible for the universe. This is what happened to Einstein as well - scientific discoveries led him to belief in a creator/designer for the universe.
Letter to Morton Berkowitz:The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.
"My Credo", Einstein, 1932:My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.
In a 1947 letter:I do not believe in free will.
To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is a something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious.
Letter to Beatrice Frohlich, 1952:It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously.
Letter on 1954 to Joseph Dispentiere, who despaired that that Einstein was conventionally religious:The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Can you clarify what you mean specifically? I've done a bit of research - according to what I read of the theory there were only subatomic particles in existence for quite a few thousand years after the Big Bang, until it was cool enough for atoms to form. That doesn't take away from the unlikeliness of anything existing at all, or the complexity of how everything turned out.Philip wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:40 pm
astonishingly complex things forming within mere minutes, and began operating with astounding and necessarily precise interactions and orchestration... And science teaches that, within moments of the Big Bang beginning, on a vast scale, extraordinary physical things of remarkable, brilliant designs immediately appeared and begin assembling themselves in ways still barely understandable to all of the physicists who have researched and studied the origins of the universe. So incredible, that no one has any idea how a universe, moments old, immediately included such amazing things with such wondrous functionalities.