Evidence for God from Science

ES -- excellent link.

Byblos wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:The comment was made that if a person Wants to be baptized but Can't that That 'desire' will be enough to satisfy God. Well -- good desires won't get a person their salvation.

Well there you go Rick.

Is that official Catholic doctrine?

Storyteller wrote:Okay, most (if not all) of you know that Catholicism has a huge pull for me. I am still exploring and have had a lot of helpful comments and advice.
There are some things that I need to explore more, discover different views on so...

Mary, Mother of God.
As in mother of Christ, mother of our Lord or Mother of God?
I have felt Mary.
Does it really matter which I view Mary as? Do I have to believe Mary is the Mother of God to be a true Catholic? If so, why?

Storyteller,

Could you explain what you mean regarding the part I underlined in your quote?

Felt her presence. Smelt roses. Was praying and caught the scent of roses and kept praying. I felt a presence. Her.

Storyteller wrote:Felt her presence. Smelt roses. Was praying and caught the scent of roses and kept praying. I felt a presence. Her.

Do you think that was from God? While praying to God, do you think He would send a fragrance of roses, to get you to focus on Mary, not on Him?

Storyteller wrote:
Felt her presence. Smelt roses. Was praying and caught the scent of roses and kept praying. I felt a presence. Her.

Rick: To whom were you praying?

And if someone were to PRAY to one other than God, as IF someone other than God had either the power to answer that prayer, or even to influence the efficacy of that prayer, I would say that would be opening up the door to the demonic - to convince one of something that isn't true - that Mary or some other Christian saint, or ritual, has power in influencing God's will. Mary, some role in salvation? Sinless? PLEASE!!! The devil absolutely loves to get someone dependent upon another person or anything else other than God - and that includes even the prayers of others! It's not the PRAYERS of others that have power, but the power of ONLY He Who can and has the wisdom and foreknowledge as to whether or not those prayers should be honored. If anyone thinks that the prayers of one person are any more effective than another's, than Mary's, or any other saints, that is just not Scriptural. God said that 1) "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and 2) "God does not show favoritism." He considers one man as another, only distinguishing between those whom are His and those whom will never be. It is VERY simple: "We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if ANYONE is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him." (John 9:31). And, "do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God" (Philippians 4:6). There is much about prayer in the New Testament - wouldn't you think there would be just ONE single verse indicating that one's personal prayers aren't as effective unless some other saint is a mediator? Not one!

Does God Himself not hear one's prayers? Of course (see above). But is God influenced by ANYONE's prayers - or is it not, instead, that He responds to prayers made within His - and only, HIS - will? Is JESUS not enough???!!! Does Jesus or ANY disciple/apostle in Scripture assert beseeching saints in Heaven, asserting such saints have ANY persuasive power or influence over God? No and NO!!! God does not need nor is He impacted by the will of others - UNLESS, they are desiring of what is ALREADY within His will! One has the right and encouragement in Scripture that God honors where numbers of people come together in His will in prayer, because He honors where His people are connected to HIS will - which came FIRST (as if there is any first thought of God - He simply IS!). And the more people are praying in His will, the more He desires to honor that. But it's not just a numbers game of people praying, but one of people coming to what God ALREADY wills. People act as if God were captive in time and decides things in the spur of the moment, as does a man. EVERY decision God makes or will make - HE'S ALWAYS KNOWN THEM!!! And He's known them before ANY saint (alive or in Heaven) ever breathed their first breath or was able to utter their first prayer. He's always known how He would answer any prayer that anyone would ever make - and those answers weren't changed by the desires of human beings, but only those whom are His and that are praying in His already and ever-present will.

Thank you for that.

Philip wrote:

Storyteller wrote:
Felt her presence. Smelt roses. Was praying and caught the scent of roses and kept praying. I felt a presence. Her.

Rick: To whom were you praying?

And if someone were to PRAY to one other than God, as IF someone other than God had either the power to answer that prayer, or even to influence the efficacy of that prayer, I would say that would be opening up the door to the demonic - to convince one of something that isn't true - that Mary or some other Christian saint, or ritual, has power in influencing God's will. Mary, some role in salvation? Sinless? PLEASE!!! The devil absolutely loves to get someone dependent upon another person or anything else other than God - and that includes even the prayers of others! It's not the PRAYERS of others that have power, but the power of ONLY He Who can and has the wisdom and foreknowledge as to whether or not those prayers should be honored. If anyone thinks that the prayers of one person are any more effective than another's, than Mary's, or any other saints, that is just not Scriptural. God said that 1) "for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and 2) "God does not show favoritism." He considers one man as another, only distinguishing between those whom are His and those whom will never be. It is VERY simple: "We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if ANYONE is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him." (John 9:31). And, "do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God" (Philippians 4:6). There is much about prayer in the New Testament - wouldn't you think there would be just ONE single verse indicating that one's personal prayers aren't as effective unless some other saint is a mediator? Not one!

Does God Himself not hear one's prayers? Of course (see above). But is God influenced by ANYONE's prayers - or is it not, instead, that He responds to prayers made within His - and only, HIS - will? Is JESUS not enough???!!! Does Jesus or ANY disciple/apostle in Scripture assert beseeching saints in Heaven, asserting such saints have ANY persuasive power or influence over God? No and NO!!! God does not need nor is He impacted by the will of others - UNLESS, they are desiring of what is ALREADY within His will! One has the right and encouragement in Scripture that God honors where numbers of people come together in His will in prayer, because He honors where His people are connected to HIS will - which came FIRST (as if there is any first thought of God - He simply IS!). And the more people are praying in His will, the more He desires to honor that. But it's not just a numbers game of people praying, but one of people coming to what God ALREADY wills. People act as if God were captive in time and decides things in the spur of the moment, as does a man. EVERY decision God makes or will make - HE'S ALWAYS KNOWN THEM!!! And He's known them before ANY saint (alive or in Heaven) ever breathed their first breath or was able to utter their first prayer. He's always known how He would answer any prayer that anyone would ever make - and those answers weren't changed by the desires of human beings, but only those whom are His and that are praying in His already and ever-present will.

Philip,

You must've been writing your post when I edited mine. I originally asked who she was praying to. Then I figured that she was praying to God, so I deleted that part of my post. Sorry for the confusion.

Rick: Philip,

You must've been writing your post when I edited mine. I originally asked who she was praying to. Then I figured that she was praying to God, so I deleted that part of my post. Sorry for the confusion.

Of course, my response was not aimed at just Annette, regardless of whom or Whom she was praying to - as God's decisions are not influenced by ANYone or ANYthing other than His own divine will and purposes - which He has always known every response and every petition before there was ever a petitioner to respond to.

When I pray, it is ALWAYS to God.

I was praying, asking for guidance about my faith, about Marys role, how I feel about Catholicism. Now, it could be argued that subconcsiously I am willing myself to get a "sign" but I felt something. I have felt a prescence before, I trust my Lord and I believe He is showing me that He is with me, always.

Do I worship Mary? I wouldnt say I do but I appreciate her importance.

There is no one except God for me but Mary is a pretty good role model of how, as a woman, I can love and serve God.

Does that make sense?

Storyteller wrote:When I pray, it is ALWAYS to God.

I was praying, asking for guidance about my faith, about Marys role, how I feel about Catholicism. Now, it could be argued that subconcsiously I am willing myself to get a "sign" but I felt something. I have felt a prescence before, I trust my Lord and I believe He is showing me that He is with me, always.

Do I worship Mary? I wouldnt say I do but I appreciate her importance.

There is no one except God for me but Mary is a pretty good role model of how, as a woman, I can love and serve God.

Does that make sense?

Sure, I understand what you're saying. But the question still remains, that if it was from God, why would He take the focus off Himself, and put it on Mary? Signs of Mary, smells of Mary, feelings of Mary, visions of Mary, shouldn't happen when anyone is praying. We pray to God, seeking His will. Anything that takes our focus off of God, especially in prayer, is not from God.

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:When I pray, it is ALWAYS to God.

I was praying, asking for guidance about my faith, about Marys role, how I feel about Catholicism. Now, it could be argued that subconcsiously I am willing myself to get a "sign" but I felt something. I have felt a prescence before, I trust my Lord and I believe He is showing me that He is with me, always.

Do I worship Mary? I wouldnt say I do but I appreciate her importance.

There is no one except God for me but Mary is a pretty good role model of how, as a woman, I can love and serve God.

Does that make sense?

Sure, I understand what you're saying. But the question still remains, that if it was from God, why would He take the focus off Himself, and put it on Mary? Signs of Mary, smells of Mary, feelings of Mary, visions of Mary, shouldn't happen when anyone is praying. We pray to God, seeking His will. Anything that takes our focus off of God, especially in prayer, is not from God.

Why do you keep insisting that God is taking focus off of Himself? Could that have anything to do with your bias towards the idea of the communion of the saints? If someone had walked into the room and Story asked them to pray with her, would you have considered that as a distraction from God? You don't get to have it both ways Rick, either intercessory prayers are good (and scripturally they are) or we must abandon them altogether and might as well live in a spiritual bubble, just us as individuals and God. Except that's not the picture scripture paints of the life of a believer. We are a community of believers, we gather in His name to do what, talk about the weather? We gather to honor Him and pray, collectively, as a community. Those who went ahead and are already in heaven are as much a part of our community as we are to one another.

To me, and this is just me, the praying to anyone other than God is something I don't feel comfortable with anymore.
Its a personal thing.
I used to be ok with the whole thing of asking others to pray for me, the whole "strength in numbers" thing I guess.
BUT as time went by I didn't see the need for GOD to have more than ONE person asking Him for something UNLESS that person was not aware of God.
What I mean is this, I tend to pray for those that don't know they need God's help, I feel they need this because they themselves do not pray to God.
When it comes to believers that do, I don't think any more people praying to God somehow makes God take the original prayer request "more seriously", know what I mean?

I can't see myself praying to Mary to ask Jesus to give me strength when Jesus said Himself that I should ask HIM directly.

I have no problem with those that do pray to the saints or Mary, I just can't do it myself because I don't feel it is right for ME.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:When I pray, it is ALWAYS to God.

I was praying, asking for guidance about my faith, about Marys role, how I feel about Catholicism. Now, it could be argued that subconcsiously I am willing myself to get a "sign" but I felt something. I have felt a prescence before, I trust my Lord and I believe He is showing me that He is with me, always.

Do I worship Mary? I wouldnt say I do but I appreciate her importance.

There is no one except God for me but Mary is a pretty good role model of how, as a woman, I can love and serve God.

Does that make sense?

Sure, I understand what you're saying. But the question still remains, that if it was from God, why would He take the focus off Himself, and put it on Mary? Signs of Mary, smells of Mary, feelings of Mary, visions of Mary, shouldn't happen when anyone is praying. We pray to God, seeking His will. Anything that takes our focus off of God, especially in prayer, is not from God.

Why do you keep insisting that God is taking focus off of Himself? Could that have anything to do with your bias towards the idea of the communion of the saints? If someone had walked into the room and Story asked them to pray with her, would you have considered that as a distraction from God? You don't get to have it both ways Rick, either intercessory prayers are good (and scripturally they are) or we must abandon them altogether and might as well live in a spiritual bubble, just us as individuals and God. Except that's not the picture scripture paints of the life of a believer. We are a community of believers, we gather in His name to do what, talk about the weather? We gather to honor Him and pray, collectively, as a community. Those who went ahead and are already in heaven are as much a part of our community as we are to one another.

If someone is praying to God, the focus should be on God. So, when someone tells me that they're praying, and they "feel" Mary, or smell her presence, then that is taking the focus off God, and Mary is becoming the focus. It's not rocket surgery.

Asking someone in the room to pray for her is not necessarily taking the focus off of God.

I have no problem with people asking other people to pray for them. But there's an assumption that if I ask you to pray for me, you have to hear me first. There's no scriptural basis to believe dead people can hear us. But there is a scriptural basis for deception.

Prove me wrong. Show me anywhere that scripture says we should pray to anyone but God. Or show me a scriptural basis for praying to dead people, to ask them to intercede.

Hebrews 7:25 tells me that Christ always lives to make intercession for us. If I have Christ always interceding for me, why on earth would I need Mary?

Visions of Mary are all demonic deception, or imaginations in the mind. Period.

RickD wrote:Asking someone in the room to pray for her is not necessarily taking the focus off of God.

Then you're not being consistent.

RickD wrote:Prove me wrong. Show me anywhere that scripture says we should pray to anyone but God. Or show me a scriptural basis for praying to dead people, to ask them to intercede.

I would but then the argument shifts to what is considered scripture.

RickD wrote:Hebrews 7:25 tells me that Christ always lives to make intercession for us. If I have Christ always interceding for me, why on earth would I need Mary?

Why on earth would you need anyone else's prayer? Again, it's a matter of consistency.

RickD wrote:Visions of Mary are all demonic deception, or imaginations in the mind. Period.

That's your (emotional) opinion, nothing more.