Evidence for God from Science

abelcainsbrother wrote:... I mean it seems to me that one of the reasons you doubt God is because of all the evil,pain and suffering in this world we live in now and so you'd have the same problem if you were to go to their heaven. It would be no different than this world because nothing was ever done about sin. But see in Christianity this is not the case,in Christianity, sin has been taken care of by Jesus and all of our sins can be washed away by his blood,so that sin will never enter heaven...

I do not doubt God, because God doesn't exist (in my opinion). I cannot doubt something that doesn't exist.

Justhuman wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:... I mean it seems to me that one of the reasons you doubt God is because of all the evil,pain and suffering in this world we live in now and so you'd have the same problem if you were to go to their heaven. It would be no different than this world because nothing was ever done about sin. But see in Christianity this is not the case,in Christianity, sin has been taken care of by Jesus and all of our sins can be washed away by his blood,so that sin will never enter heaven...

I do not doubt God, because God doesn't exist (in my opinion). I cannot doubt something that doesn't exist.

You should doubt atheism instead seeing how you know you have no proof or evidence at all you've made the correct choice to not believe in God.But evidence is not important to you,just your feelings about things.You're still looking at things from a false religion perspective,just so you know.

Justhuman wrote:I'm guilty to at least once of all the things you listed (but not that 'worse' kind). Who hasn't? Even if it 'only' was stealing cookies from the cookies jar and say 'no' when asked for it. And even then, on certain occasions or moments in once life, things do 'happen'. It's not those incidents that makes up the judgement, but what you did on all those non-incidents.

If you don't mind me saying, there's something conceited in what you are saying here. That is, "Yes, I've done wrong, but I wasn't like a rapist or murderer, armed robbery or something such." A drug dealer might say, I dealt marijuana but it wasn't any harder drugs like others. Such people sound a little like a pharisee in Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and Publican (Luke 18):

• 9And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

So then, are you saying a little wrong is alright, that a fully righteous and good God should just turn a blind eye to such? There was a ruler who came to Jesus and asked what he must do to inherit eternal life. Jesus taught him no one is "good" like God is good, there's more to goodness than it simply being about not doing this bad thing and not doing that bad thing.

People often make being "good" about what they don't do, and refrain from doing. They compare themselves to others, then think to themselves I'm not that bad. Try to convince themselves they're essentially good people. Yet, Christ shifts this perspective from not looking at what others do, but to one's self (e.g., "look at the log in your own eyes"). He also teaches that a more rich and full "goodness" is about what one does and loving others rather than simply keeping rules and laws (which the Apostle Paul reasoned only highlights our weakness since we all at some point break them).

Consider another parable Jesus gave, which teaches it isn't just about what you don't do but what you do:

• 18A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20“You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” 21And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 23But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25“For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 26They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” 27But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

So then, you would want God to judge us for good and bad. God who would be pure goodness, to judge us who aren't? It seems to me if God were to judge us all, then we'd all be found guilty and so deserving of some sort of punishment. What Paul writes in Romans 2 is appropriate here:

• Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
  
  12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

It's not that I mean 'a little bad' is't wrong, but there are a lot of things ranging from naughty to BAD. There might be people that never have told a lie, or never even done a naughty thing, but most of us are just human. My wrong was like stealing a bread, and swapping the pricetag on a product (for a cheaper price). But afterwards I was ashamed of that and never did that again. I try to be honest, but do not always succeed in that. But I avoid doing another one harm.
David Wood did a BAD thing, but now he lives the 'righteous' way. Should he be judged about what he once did? Or what he has become? And forget all he did?

Now I will not be judged, unlike you (theists), but that doesn't mean I can do anything I like, without consequences.

Justhuman wrote:It's not that I mean 'a little bad' is't wrong, but there are a lot of things ranging from naughty to BAD. There might be people that never have told a lie, or never even done a naughty thing, but most of us are just human. My wrong was like stealing a bread, and swapping the pricetag on a product (for a cheaper price). But afterwards I was ashamed of that and never did that again. I try to be honest, but do not always succeed in that. But I avoid doing another one harm.
David Wood did a BAD thing, but now he lives the 'righteous' way. Should he be judged about what he once did? Or what he has become? And forget all he did?

Now I will not be judged, unlike you (theists), but that doesn't mean I can do anything I like, without consequences.

I don't really understand that last sentence. Why won't you be judged? It doesn't even make sense to me that you'd say such a thing -- considering you don't believe God exists, of course you won't think you'll be judged. Or, are you saying if God exists, then God won't judge you? Why not?

As for Christians, do we do anything we like? Perhaps, but what we'd ultimately like to do is be pleasing to God. Yet, true, we fail, and fail, and wrestling with sinful and fleshly desires, and will do so until the day we die. Because guess what? Christians are human too, and humans desire many things that aren't healthy, aren't loving and really wouldn't be very pleasing to God at all. So we're kind of at war with two different people, one that gets tired, strained, emotional, is affect physically, and the other that strives to be better, feels bad over moral failings, seeks after God and the like.

Let me put a question to you though. Do you only want to do good because of consequences? Is that true goodness? I think your pride in your own self-good or self-righteousness is perhaps clouding your thinking here. Further, I think it's more a case that Christians embrace a fact of reality that no one is truly good, yet it seems to me you're trying to play down your wrong and draw comparisons to what you see as really BAD. Yet,

• "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

In this life, based upon what you have said, I'm thinking you would certainly feel more comfortable with a "religion" which creates rules and laws people must keep and be "rewarded" for. So long as one "behaves" and keeps the rules, then it doesn't matter whether or not they care or love. Such is precisely what Christ taught God didn't want. He doesn't want people just being good, following rituals and laws if their hearts and minds aren't really there. Such are white-washed tombs (appearing white on the outside, but full of decay on the inside).

It seems clear to me that what Christ offers doesn't fit well with you, the love, attonement and forgiveness on offer through Christ. You'd much prefer to be judged according to laws, and your goodness, so guess what? That is what will happen. We choose. But, the bad news is that no one will be declared righteous before God according to their own goodness. It'll be your very own conscience that condemns you when face-to-face with the absolute purity that is God, especially one you denied in this life.

Consider further that if God exists, then based upon what I previously presented a few posts back let us accept God is maximially good and righteous (since God would be the source of such). This means God must also punish evil wherever it occurs by whoever. You can't have complete righteousness, without complete justice, and what justice demands for wrongdoing is punishment. So then, it won't do to say you're not David Wood. At least Dave recognises that he is a most grievous sinner and throws Himself on God's mercy seat. You on the other hand, are still trying to justify yourself, and comparing yourself to others. Yet, if God is entirely righteous, then He must deal with your wrong, He must also deal with my wrong and Dave's wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8l1Sa0jVns

I mean the fact to know that one will be judged by God at the end of ones life, that can be a good reason not to sin. For an atheist there is no judgement after death. Just death.

I do not feel pride in 'my' righteousness. Did I gave you that impression? Then I will have to take more care in how I write things.

And no, I'm not David Woods, I do not compare him to me, nor do I compare myself to anyone else. Neither am I trying to justify myself.

Well, maybe a little bit (justifying). There are a lot of things we do to justify ourselves, knowingly or unknowingly.

justhuman wrote:
I mean the fact to know that one will be judged by God at the end of ones life, that can be a good reason not to sin. For an atheist there is no judgement after death. Just death.

Care to prove your assertion that there is no judgement after death for atheists?

Hmm... Of course if God does exist, then yes, I will be judged too.
But I mean from my viewpoint that there is no God. No God = no judgement (by God).
Furthermore in a materialistic universe there is no afterlife, no non-physical realm for a spirit or soul. No 'residual something' that can be judged (which has consequences for that person). Besides the reputation, maybe. But not the person that once was.

Justhuman wrote:Hmm... Of course if God does exist, then yes, I will be judged too.
But I mean from my viewpoint that there is no God. No God = no judgement (by God).
Furthermore in a materialistic universe there is no afterlife, no non-physical realm for a spirit or soul. No 'residual something' that can be judged (which has consequences for that person). Besides the reputation, maybe. But not the person that once was.

How do things like love, hate, the human mind, etc., fit into a materialistic universe?

Rick: How do things like love, hate, the human mind, etc., fit into a materialistic universe?

Yes, think of mankind's most extraordinary creations - works of art, music, mathematics, wondrous inventions of all kinds, theories to explore, all of these began in a non-physical reality of consciousness of the mind - and THEN their subsequent brilliance was engineered into physical brilliances of great beauty and majesty. These things came from a non-physical place. And while neurons and brain cells allowed them to be received and pondered, those were merely the mechanisms via which they were received and processed. Where did those things come from - those marvelous ideas that have made it clear that, of millions of species that have existed, only one of them has such capabilities to process and capitalize upon ideas that began beyond the physical.

Philip wrote:

Rick: How do things like love, hate, the human mind, etc., fit into a materialistic universe?

Yes, think of mankind's most extraordinary creations - works of art, music, mathematics, wondrous inventions of all kinds, theories to explore, all of these began in a non-physical reality of consciousness of the mind - and THEN their subsequent brilliance was engineered into physical brilliances of great beauty and majesty. These things came from a non-physical place. And while neurons and brain cells allowed them to be received and pondered, those were merely the mechanisms via which they were received and processed. Where did those things come from - those marvelous ideas that have made it clear that, of millions of species that have existed, only one of them has such capabilities to process and capitalize upon ideas that began beyond the physical.

On mathematics alone one ought to give serious thought to abandoning materialism. Here's a discipline, discoverable only through intelligence (and a highly advanced one at that), perfectly describes the reality that surrounds us. How could that be? How is it possible that a mathematician over half a century ago mathematically predicts the existence of a particle to only confirm its existence a few years ago? How is it that this discipline that absolutely requires intelligence predates not only intelligent creatures but also life itself? I don't know, could it be that intelligence actually predates all matter and energy? Hmmm, food for thought.

Also there are many different world views in our world but based on the law of non-contradiction they all cannot be right because they contradict each one,but we cannot say this means all of these world views are wrong like atheists typically do.Instead only one out of them all will be right and so it behooves us to make sure that we have accepted the correct world view and the only way to do this is to go by proof and evidence and right off the bat atheists are in last place compared to all other world views because they pride themselves on not needing any proof or evidence atheism is the correct world view.

Atheists will tell you they don't have to have any evidence if they are an atheist because they claim it is a default position.Which is hog-wash and is irrational. These people do not care what is the truth and have been duped by people who just bash God and mock the bible.This is all atheists can do,while they sit there knowing that they have accepted a world-view they have no way of knowing is correct and true.

I don't know if you know of ShockofGod on youtube but he is a former atheist now Christian who has totally destroyed all of the top atheists with one question -"What proof and evidence do you have that atheism is accurate and correct?" He has asked all of the top atheists like Matt Dillahunty of The atheist experience,AronRa,Richard Dawkins,etc and it has been seven years and not one atheist has ever answered this question. It is funny to see and I encourage anybody to go on youtube and listen to when ShockofGod called into "The Atheist Experience" and asked them this question and how they could not handle this question.You've got to see how funny it is to see atheists squirm while struggling and avoid this one question.It is about 9 minutes long,but worth it.Watch these atheists squirm in their seats with this one question.

ShockofGod calls into the Atheist Experience.
https://youtu.be/CS--F3tAWt0

ACB,

Now I see where you get your technique.

I don't know if you know of ShockofGod on youtube but he is a former atheist now Christian who has totally destroyed all of the top atheists with one question -"What proof and evidence do you have that atheism is accurate and correct?

He got a proper answer to the question, the way it was asked.

According to the person answering, atheism is a lack of a belief in God. He's 100% sure that he lacks belief in God, therefore, atheism is correct.

It's a meaningless question.

Prove theism is true. I believe in God, therefore theism(a belief in God) is true.

Stupid, and utterly pointless.

To me, judging whether atheism is irrational or not, comes down to the probabilities one should consider, as per what is possible and what is off-the-charts unlikely.