Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:30 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:11 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:35 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:31 am
Jeremiah 31:31-33 and especially Hebrews 8:6-13 say you are wrong.
Your disagreement is with Scripture not me.

Feel free to point me to any Scripture to support your assertion that the Old Covenant is still in effect today.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
the covenant that is new is that we shall no longer teach "Do you know God". this was the new covenant not a covenant where we Jesus died to free us from the laws of God nor was any of the teachings of Christ a contradiction to the old covenant.

So with the knowledge of Truth being placed within our hearts and inward parts, we know God from birth and are bound to him Always. because the written commandments were not obeyed God placed them into us so that they will be there and cannot be avoided... How can you avoid something that is a part of your being???

Again...
You are confusing two different things.
You are confusing the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24 with God's moral law or the law written on our hearts (Romans 2:14-15).

God's moral law (ie the law written on our hearts) is applicable for everyone, Jew or Gentile.
Even though the Old Covenant contains God's moral law. God's moral law is applicable because it transcends the Old Covenant (see Mat 5-7), not because it is part of the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-13 explicitly states that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;

That's not me saying that... that's Scripture.

That said, God's moral law is consistent throughout both the Old and New Covenants.

Hence the title of this thread as to whether Gods law is Valid or not the answer would be, Yes by your own statement because God's law transcends.. Meaning that we are to obey it no matter what... no confusion anywhere...

That's not what the title says...
The title refers to the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments (Exodus 20) are part of the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24.

The 10 Commandments contain both moral law and ceremonial law.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments transcends the Old Covenant, can be found repeated in the New Testament, and is still applicable today.

The ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments does not transcend the Old Covenant and became "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) when Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant.

Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments, there is no way he could have if they had been placed within us...
the 10 commandments are the Law of God it is what he commands us to do... what did jesus say " 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." matthew 5:17-19... so at what point was the commandments of God done away with??? I mean I look outside and still see the sun shining and sin upon the earth so the heaves and the earth haven't passed do his death and resurrection were not the release from the Law of God.

Jesus cannot do away with something God made part of the fabric of us.

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:57 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:30 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:11 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:35 am
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
the covenant that is new is that we shall no longer teach "Do you know God". this was the new covenant not a covenant where we Jesus died to free us from the laws of God nor was any of the teachings of Christ a contradiction to the old covenant.

So with the knowledge of Truth being placed within our hearts and inward parts, we know God from birth and are bound to him Always. because the written commandments were not obeyed God placed them into us so that they will be there and cannot be avoided... How can you avoid something that is a part of your being???

Again...
You are confusing two different things.
You are confusing the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24 with God's moral law or the law written on our hearts (Romans 2:14-15).

God's moral law (ie the law written on our hearts) is applicable for everyone, Jew or Gentile.
Even though the Old Covenant contains God's moral law. God's moral law is applicable because it transcends the Old Covenant (see Mat 5-7), not because it is part of the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-13 explicitly states that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;

That's not me saying that... that's Scripture.

That said, God's moral law is consistent throughout both the Old and New Covenants.

Hence the title of this thread as to whether Gods law is Valid or not the answer would be, Yes by your own statement because God's law transcends.. Meaning that we are to obey it no matter what... no confusion anywhere...

That's not what the title says...
The title refers to the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments (Exodus 20) are part of the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24.

The 10 Commandments contain both moral law and ceremonial law.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments transcends the Old Covenant, can be found repeated in the New Testament, and is still applicable today.

The ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments does not transcend the Old Covenant and became "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) when Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant.

Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments, there is no way he could have if they had been placed within us... the 10 commandments are the Law of God it is what he commands us to do...

Again...
You are confusing the old Covenant that God made with Israel in Exodus 19-24 with the New Covenant established by Jesus that is written on our hearts.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments is written on our hearts.
But the ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments that is unique to the Old Covenant is not part of the New Covenant that is written on our hearts.

what did jesus say " 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Exactly...
Jesus had to fulfill the Old Covenant before he established his New Covenant to replace the Old Covenant... just like Jeremiah prophesied.

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:12 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:57 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:30 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:11 am
Again...
You are confusing two different things.
You are confusing the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24 with God's moral law or the law written on our hearts (Romans 2:14-15).

God's moral law (ie the law written on our hearts) is applicable for everyone, Jew or Gentile.
Even though the Old Covenant contains God's moral law. God's moral law is applicable because it transcends the Old Covenant (see Mat 5-7), not because it is part of the Old Covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-13 explicitly states that the New Covenant made the Old Covenant obsolete

That's not me saying that... that's Scripture.

That said, God's moral law is consistent throughout both the Old and New Covenants.

Hence the title of this thread as to whether Gods law is Valid or not the answer would be, Yes by your own statement because God's law transcends.. Meaning that we are to obey it no matter what... no confusion anywhere...

That's not what the title says...
The title refers to the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments (Exodus 20) are part of the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24.

The 10 Commandments contain both moral law and ceremonial law.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments transcends the Old Covenant, can be found repeated in the New Testament, and is still applicable today.

The ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments does not transcend the Old Covenant and became "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) when Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant.

Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments, there is no way he could have if they had been placed within us... the 10 commandments are the Law of God it is what he commands us to do...

Again...
You are confusing the old Covenant that God made with Israel in Exodus 19-24 with the New Covenant established by Jesus that is written on our hearts.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments is written on our hearts.
But the ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments that is unique to the Old Covenant is not part of the New Covenant that is written on our hearts.

what did jesus say " 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Exactly...
Jesus had to fulfill the Old Covenant before he established his New Covenant to replace the Old Covenant... just like Jeremiah prophesied.

Again... no he did not do away with the old covenant if he had the world would have ended upon his death on the cross... the fulfillment was not teaching "do you know God" it was the teaching of God so that his followers became more acquainted and understanding... his followers followed him because they saw the power of God in his Life not because they thought that he was to end the law of God...

LonnieOwes,

Hebrews 8:13 says that God made the old covenant obsolete. Do you know what obsolete means?

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:18 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:12 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:57 am

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 am

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:30 am

Hence the title of this thread as to whether Gods law is Valid or not the answer would be, Yes by your own statement because God's law transcends.. Meaning that we are to obey it no matter what... no confusion anywhere...

That's not what the title says...
The title refers to the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments (Exodus 20) are part of the Old Covenant that God made with the House of Israel in Exodus 19-24.

The 10 Commandments contain both moral law and ceremonial law.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments transcends the Old Covenant, can be found repeated in the New Testament, and is still applicable today.

The ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments does not transcend the Old Covenant and became "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) when Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant.

Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments, there is no way he could have if they had been placed within us... the 10 commandments are the Law of God it is what he commands us to do...

Again...
You are confusing the old Covenant that God made with Israel in Exodus 19-24 with the New Covenant established by Jesus that is written on our hearts.
The moral law contained in the 10 Commandments is written on our hearts.
But the ceremonial law in the 10 Commandments that is unique to the Old Covenant is not part of the New Covenant that is written on our hearts.

what did jesus say " 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Exactly...
Jesus had to fulfill the Old Covenant before he established his New Covenant to replace the Old Covenant... just like Jeremiah prophesied.

Again... no he did not do away with the old covenant if he had the world would have ended upon his death on the cross...

Your disagreement is with Scripture
Hebrews 8:6-13

6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

again no not with scripture at all... I actually don't revert back to scripture in my responses, when it comes to mind I am directed to scripture to give explanation and hopefully understanding.
Yup I still stand on what I said... the written Law was ignored and not adhered to so in order to avoid such faults God placed them within us so that we would never forget... the new covenant is not to know the LORD as the last one was because with his laws already in us how can we ignore that which is designed into us...

Do you know what obsolete means?

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 2:20 pm

Philip wrote: ↑Mon May 21, 2018 2:12 pm Bav, all I'm saying is let's please all dial it back a bit - no need to attack the person.

Is it really attacking a person when a person ( and a moderator no less ) simply drops one-liners in "defense" of their group position? Let's assume that the majority of G&S members align themselves more with RickD's position and assertions...does the number of votes determine Truth? I don't think I'm asking anything different than a moderator would of a person that comes on the forum and simply drops one-liner accusations/assertions about Christians and then refuses to provide some evidence for those except to say "all atheists believe it so it is true". That's called trolling, isn't it?
.
.

I am going to interject a bit here... All the scripture in the world will not convince anyone of anything because if you are only out to prove your point about your beliefs then do so and accept that not everyone will agree with you... it is not about who is right or who is wrong it is about the message that God has tasked you to deliver... not everyone agrees with me but if they drop a oneliner I clarify what I have to say to make sure signals don't get crossed...

everone was brought up to believe a certain way and if people keep hammering , then instead of being receptive, they get defensive... you have to give it time to settle in and propagate ... if a person disagrees with you, don't get defensive, find out why and how they disagree first then try and explain your frame of mind...

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:39 am I actually don't revert back to scripture in my responses, when it comes to mind I am directed to scripture to give explanation and hopefully understanding.

This is the main weakness in your argumentation... it's not Scriptural.
I provide Scripture to support my position, because to be honest what I personally think isn't really that important.

However, what Scripture says is supremely important.
And the biggest weakness in your argument is it is directly contradicted by Scripture.

Here it is again
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?
(Hint... the answer to both questions is found a few verses earlier in Hebrews 8:9)

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:21 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:39 am I actually don't revert back to scripture in my responses, when it comes to mind I am directed to scripture to give explanation and hopefully understanding.

This is the main weakness in your argumentation... it's not Scriptural.
I provide Scripture to support my position, because to be honest what I personally think isn't really that important.

However, what Scripture says is supremely important.
And the biggest weakness in your argument is it is directly contradicted by Scripture.

Here it is again
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?

Ok so what you are saying is that I do not have to follow the commandments of God and that Jesus died and released us from them???... because I have quoted factual scripture and given explanation for why I see things the way I do..

sorry I cannot submit myself to a belief that specifically tells me that Jesus did not destroy the Law and the scripture tells me that to transgress against the doctrine of Christ means I don't have God.

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:28 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:21 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:39 am I actually don't revert back to scripture in my responses, when it comes to mind I am directed to scripture to give explanation and hopefully understanding.

This is the main weakness in your argumentation... it's not Scriptural.
I provide Scripture to support my position, because to be honest what I personally think isn't really that important.

However, what Scripture says is supremely important.
And the biggest weakness in your argument is it is directly contradicted by Scripture.

Here it is again
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?

Ok so what you are saying is that I do not have to follow the commandments of God and that Jesus died and released us from them???

That's not what I said and its not what Scripture says either.

Now let's get back to what Scripture does say
Here it is again
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?
(Hint... the answer to both questions is found a few verses earlier in Hebrews 8:9)

Lonnie,

Are you going to answer the questions?

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:35 pm Lonnie,

Are you going to answer the questions?

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?

I have answered the question time and time again but it is ok I will answer again...

What is obsolete is the offering up of sacrifice for sins and this is also outdated...

Christ did not do away with the Laws of God nor did he establish a new covenant asserting this...

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:34 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:28 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:21 pm

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:39 am I actually don't revert back to scripture in my responses, when it comes to mind I am directed to scripture to give explanation and hopefully understanding.

This is the main weakness in your argumentation... it's not Scriptural.
I provide Scripture to support my position, because to be honest what I personally think isn't really that important.

However, what Scripture says is supremely important.
And the biggest weakness in your argument is it is directly contradicted by Scripture.

Here it is again
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?

Ok so what you are saying is that I do not have to follow the commandments of God and that Jesus died and released us from them???

That's not what I said and its not what Scripture says either.

Now let's get back to what Scripture does say
Here it is again
Hebrews 8:13

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?
(Hint... the answer to both questions is found a few verses earlier in Hebrews 8:9)

May not be what you said but it is the common belief that once you are saved that you no longer have to follow the commandment of God... Can't have it both ways you are either obedient to God or you are not... it's that simple...

sorry if it comes across rude, it's not my intention at all...

the old covenant in question is the teaching of the knowing of God and not the end of the commandments... Jeremiah 31:34 and they will teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.

LonnieOwesn1973 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:47 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:35 pm Lonnie,

Are you going to answer the questions?

According to Hebrews 8:13...
What is obsolete?
What is outdated?

I have answered the question time and time again but it is ok I will answer again...

What is obsolete is the offering up of sacrifice for sins and this is also outdated...

Christ did not do away with the Laws of God nor did he establish a new covenant asserting this...

That's not what scripture says.

Hebrews 8:13 says:

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The old covenant, the covenant that God made with the Israelites, is obsolete. The entire covenant. Not just the parts that you want to be obsolete.