Evidence for God from Science

John, all those arguing here for Christians to keep the sabbath, aren't saying Christians need to keep the sabbath for salvation.

What I posted was "I would say that if a person teaches that it is a necessity to keep the Sabbath for ones salvation, then one must also teach physical circumcision as in Gen 18." I now they are not arguing about the Sabbath needing to be kept for salvation. "IF" a person.. do you understand what I mean now?

1stjohn0666 wrote:What I posted was "I would say that if a person teaches that it is a necessity to keep the Sabbath for ones salvation, then one must also teach physical circumcision as in Gen 18." I now they are not arguing about the Sabbath needing to be kept for salvation. "IF" a person.. do you understand what I mean now?

I understand. There has just been some misunderstandings about what people that follow the Sabbath are saying. I think everyone on all sides of the issue, believes it's not a salvation issue.
I'm just clarifying in general, for anyone reading.

I think everyone on all sides of the issue, believes it's not a salvation issue.

Some hold that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. I am not sure though if they also believe that such a person loses his Salvation?

neo-x wrote:

I think everyone on all sides of the issue, believes it's not a salvation issue.

Some hold that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. I am not sure though if they also believe that such a person loses his Salvation?

Neo, we went over this in the clothing laws thread. Gman and cheezerrox were saying they believe Christians should keep the Sabbath. And both of them said it's not a salvation issue.

neo-x wrote:

I think everyone on all sides of the issue, believes it's not a salvation issue.

Some hold that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. I am not sure though if they also believe that such a person loses his Salvation?

What if we keep the spirit of the Sabbath, which is to reserve time to praise, worship and commune with God.

As a Gentile Christian there is no evidence that one must keep the Sabbath... The decree was made in Acts 15:28,29.

1stjohn0666 wrote:As a Gentile Christian there is no evidence that one must keep the Sabbath... The decree was made in Acts 15:28,29.

And this decree was concerning the book of the law.

Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

2Ki 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

There were many things contained in the book of the law that are no longer required. However, it should be pointed out that the stone tablets written by Gods finger which were kept in the ark were not considered the book of the law. If your rationale were true then no gentile is obligated to follow any of these;

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

If what you say is true then we are free to not perform any of these things and remain sinless.

K,

When did it become wrong to murder? Before or after the law was given?

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Who is the "thee" mentioned here?

There were many things contained in the book of the law that are no longer required. However, it should be pointed out that the stone tablets written by Gods finger which were kept in the ark were not considered the book of the law. If your rationale were true then no gentile is obligated to follow any of these;

Gentiles are not "obligated" to keep them. There isn't some special arrangement between God and gentiles regarding keeping a list of rules. Love is the issue today. Love God and love your neighbor. It is not an obligation of does and don'ts.

jlay wrote:Gentiles are not "obligated" to keep them. There isn't some special arrangement between God and gentiles regarding keeping a list of rules. Love is the issue today. Love God and love your neighbor. It is not an obligation of does and don'ts.

Gentiles who have faith in the G-d of Israel and His Messiah do have an obligation to obey Him, though, just as Jews who have faith are obligated. And are you saying that love wasn't the issue in the past? Because, as I'm sure you know, both of those commandments (to love G-d and to love your neighbor) are from the Law.

jlay wrote:K, When did it become wrong to murder? Before or after the law was given?.

We should ask Cain;
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

It would appear fairly clearly to the average reader that murder was a sin prior to exodus. It's just an educated guess mind you but Cain doesn't appear too happy about his reward for murdering Abel so I'm gonna stick with it being a sin.

KBCid wrote:Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

jlay wrote:Who is the "thee" mentioned here?

Indeed this is the whole point... the thee mentioned there was the israelites. It was this book of the law which is spoken of so many times. However, the entire point was that the decalogue is not the book which the israelites made a blood oath to obey. The book of the law as shown in the text was added to the side of the ark and intended to be a temporary institution. Its rules and judgements provided a method of dealing with the breaking of Gods commandments which defined what sin was.

KBCid wrote:There were many things contained in the book of the law that are no longer required. However, it should be pointed out that the stone tablets written by Gods finger which were kept in the ark were not considered the book of the law. If your rationale were true then no gentile is obligated to follow any of these;

jlay wrote:Gentiles are not "obligated" to keep them. There isn't some special arrangement between God and gentiles regarding keeping a list of rules. Love is the issue today. Love God and love your neighbor. It is not an obligation of does and don'ts.

Gentiles are not required to keep the book of the law which was specifically agreed to in a blood oath by the isrealites. The decalogue however was not a book and thus not part of the blood oath. The decalogue came from the very finger of God and written in stone to show the permanancy of how God defines what sin is. If we were to "do" the things listed in the decalogue is it not still a sin? Can I murder while still believing in Christ and still be sinless? Can I make molten images of what I think God looks like and worship it even though I believe in Christ? Can I dishonor my father and mother shile still believing in Christ and be sinless?
These are things which need to be defined. Did Christs sacrifice eliminate how God defined sin?

My personal belief on the Shabbat is that no one HAS to keep it for salvation... We don't HAVE to do anything.. However, I would also advocate that it is an insult to G-d to say that I don't have to obey it now... Why? Because our G-d being a loving G-d has given us the gift of Shabbat for our rest... One day out of the week where we stop from this Babylonian pagan lifestyle were we think we have to work, work, work, work, all the days of our lives. And then we complain to G-d why our lives are so chaotic not realizing that G-d has already given us the antidote to our problems. That is a day of REST. Cool off.. We practice it because we WANT to do it, not that we HAVE to do it. Now that is just silly not to see that....

G-d gave it to us out of love so that we won't burn ourselves out and spend some time with Him and our families.. How dare we flip G-d off for giving us such a beautiful time and gift of rest..

Breaking any one of the 10 commandments is forgivable. Moses was a murderer, David an adulterer... oh the list could go on and on. It's good to do the commandments but not a requirement to "earn" favor with God, this becomes legalism vs. the free gift. If one does not keep the Sabbath day, what happens to them at the 2nd coming?

Gman wrote:
My personal belief on the Shabbat is that no one HAS to keep it for salvation... We don't HAVE to do anything.. However, I would also advocate that it is an insult to G-d to say that I don't have to obey it now.

Gman wrote:
How dare we flip G-d off for giving us such a beautiful time and gift of rest..

I really don't understand this.
My POV all along has been that first, Jesus Christ IS our Sabbath rest. And second, the bible says that Christians shouldn't judge one another about whether we obey the 7th day sabbath law.

Let's look at the following verses from Colossians 2:16-17: 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Christians are not to judge each other in regards to what we eat, or drink. We are not to judge each other in regards to whether or not we follow the Sabbath day law. That means we are free in Christ to choose to follow the law regarding the seventh(Sabbath) day, or choose not to follow the law regarding the Sabbath day. Now for those who say "Sabbath" in this verse isn't referring to the 4th commandment, let's look at verse 16 again with the Strong's concordance numbers, so we can see exactly what the word "Sabbath" means in this verse.

Col 2:16 Therefore 3767 no 3361 one 5100 is to act as 2919 0 your 4771 judge 2919 in regard to 1722 food 1035 or 2532 drink 4213 or 2228 in 1722 respect 3313 to a festival 1859 or 2228 a new moon 3561 or 2228 a Sabbath day 4521 --

Ok. So "Sabbath day" is Strong's number 4521. Here's what it says about Strong's 4521-σάββατον,sabbaton, from this link:
Strong's G4521 - sabbaton

1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work

a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week

b) a single sabbath, sabbath day

2) seven days, a week

So, now we can see that Christians are not to judge one another in regards to observance of the Sabbath day. It is a matter of conscience, through the freedom we have in Christ.

As for Colossians 2:17: 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

This verse is saying that the laws pertaining to the restrictions on eating and drinking, and obeying the Sabbath law regarding the observance of the seventh day, are "mere shadows" of what is to come. The substance which is in Christ.

Just like Old Testament animal sacrifice was a shadow of Christ's ultimate, and final sacrifice, the seventh day Sabbath rest was a mere shadow of the ultimate and final rest we believers have in Christ. The shadow was a rest for the Israelites from their six days of work. The real Sabbath(Jesus Christ), is a rest for believers from our work to try to please God.
Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest in Christ. The Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things with His death and resurrection. Every lamb that was brought as an offering was a shadow of the work of Christ. Every burnt offering, every bit of incense that was offered, was a picture of the fragrance of Jesus Christ. The tabernacle was a shadow of him. The high priest, in his garments and his office, was a shadow of Christ as our High Priest.

So, just like when a believer loves God and his neighbor, he is obeying the 10 commandments, also, when a believer is resting in Christ, the real Sabbath, he is obeying the 4th commandment.
JESUS CHRIST IS OUR SABBATH REST!!!
For a believer to dismiss this, and put the burden on other believers that we MUST obey the seventh day Sabbath law or we are sinning, is to dismiss the fact that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. And He always was, and still is the real Sabbath.

See if this illustration makes sense. A man is engaged to marry his fiance. They are in different countries, and will soon meet and be married. For now, the man has a picture of his fiance in a frame that he keeps next to his bed. He looks at the picture, and sees how beautiful his fiance is. Now, when the man and his fiance are reunited, he no longer needs to look at the picture of her, because he will have the real "her". While the picture is beautiful, and shows the man what his fiance looks like, it was just a picture he had, until he has the real thing. The seventh day Sabbath is a picture of the real Sabbath, which is Jesus Christ.

1stjohn0666 wrote:Breaking any one of the 10 commandments is forgivable. Moses was a murderer, David an adulterer... oh the list could go on and on.

I'm not arguing about whether something is forgivable. I'm directly asking if it is a sin?

1stjohn0666 wrote:It's good to do the commandments but not a requirement to "earn" favor with God, this becomes legalism vs. the free gift. If one does not keep the Sabbath day, what happens to them at the 2nd coming?

Do you think God will favor you with salvation if you knowingly break his commandments? I know that no one can simply perform an action and automatically gain salvation. This is how the Jews in Christs time thought it would work which is where they erred. However, God was pretty straightforward on how he applied the free gift. I wll refer to scripture on this concept;

Ezekiel 33:12-20 Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.’ If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. And if I say to the wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live. Yet your countrymen say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. Yet, O house of Israel, you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to his own ways.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26-29 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses (the law of Moses was contained in the book of the law) died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

Apparently it is possible to sin after being saved which means that there are commandments of God that can be broken even if you believe in Christ. It is this point that I would like to get clarification on. What exactly are the sins that can cause us to lose salvation?

Mat 7:21-22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These verses show that there will be people who believe they are saved and yet are not. What could separate a believer from God and Christ if the believer actually believes in them and that they are saved?