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Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:32 am
by PaulSacramento
Squible wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Its been my experience that the biggest issue that drives a believer to be an atheist and keeps many an atheist an atheist is the problem of suffering, natural suffering.
Religion does not have a satisfactory answer to that problem and because of that, many a believer has been made and atheist and many an atheist remains one.
Especially in regards to Christianity.
Sure.. However I would say now that the non-believer doesn't understand Christianity if they have come to that conclusion.
Understanding is irrelevant, they simply don't agree.
They do NOT reconcile a God of love with one that permits suffering that He can prevent.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:58 am
by melanie
PaulSacramento wrote:
Squible wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Its been my experience that the biggest issue that drives a believer to be an atheist and keeps many an atheist an atheist is the problem of suffering, natural suffering.
Religion does not have a satisfactory answer to that problem and because of that, many a believer has been made and atheist and many an atheist remains one.
Especially in regards to Christianity.
Sure.. However I would say now that the non-believer doesn't understand Christianity if they have come to that conclusion.
Understanding is irrelevant, they simply don't agree.
They do NOT reconcile a God of love with one that permits suffering that He can prevent.
Paul,
Suffering is part of the human condition.
It's not a case of micro management. The abuser wields his/her free will to work outside of the will of God, and there are consequences. Not at the hand of God. But at the hand of the will of man. We may disagree with the actions and outcomes but not with our ability to choose how we play our cards whatever the consequences are.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:10 am
by Squible
PaulSacramento wrote:
Squible wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Its been my experience that the biggest issue that drives a believer to be an atheist and keeps many an atheist an atheist is the problem of suffering, natural suffering.
Religion does not have a satisfactory answer to that problem and because of that, many a believer has been made and atheist and many an atheist remains one.
Especially in regards to Christianity.
Sure.. However I would say now that the non-believer doesn't understand Christianity if they have come to that conclusion.
Understanding is irrelevant, they simply don't agree.
They do NOT reconcile a God of love with one that permits suffering that He can prevent.
Easy tiger...

So be it...

A few things...

I have long suspected that this comes from the belief that there is no afterlife. I may be wrong...

The bible is very clear. We are not Gods little pets which he keeps happy, there is no promise of complete happiness during this season, only after. Ultimately I believe it is about coming to know God and choosing freely to be with him or not.
I found God in my struggles ultimately, odd that...

So what they disagree... They're entitled to it...

But I often ponder...

Would keeping everyone happy and content lead them to God?
For if we didn't have the hard times or pain would we feel?
Would there be love, empathy and compassion in the way we have it now?
Would it still mean something? Would we truly come to understand love? Would we grow spiritually?
Lets say it was all roses would it be then considered we are being Coerced?
How about what happens to a child that gets everything they want and are supposedly kept happy? I can tell you I have seen a few and it's not pretty.
I look at my own kids, and there are times I am very hard on them. WHY? Because I love them! It teaches them things they need in order to grow, and this to me is no different when it comes to God.

And let me say with my own experience, I truly believe it is sometimes what we don't have that actually defines who we are.

The most remarkable thing is Christianity is most successful in countries which don't have everything and where there are serious struggles... And then we have Christianity in decline where we are spoilt and for the most part have it easy.
It seems to me that in general we live in the western world where we are not weary from pain, but NUMB from pleasure...

If non-believers struggle with this then so be it... If they can't reconcile it, so be it.. that is their choice... and we must remember there could be a lot more going on then meets the eye.
Sometimes we need to find out how someone got to where they are in the first place.

Cheers..

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:22 am
by PaulSacramento
I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.
They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:24 am
by Squible
PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.
They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
Yeah.. Agreed..
Also, I often want to say I don't believe in the god you don't believe in either...

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:41 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.

They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
I wonder why you think the things in bold? I understand the first concept just fine, its simple enough.
The second just is not so, at least, not of me.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:43 am
by B. W.
melanie wrote:
Squible wrote:
melanie wrote: Thanks Squible
For sharing your story, I resonate with it on a number of levels.
I was raised christian from one side of my family but experienced significant abuse. It left me scarred and angry. It took me a long time and an uphill battle to get to where I am now. It took a bit of dragging and wake up calls from God to set me straight. But sometimes the journey with all of its pitfalls is part of the victory.
Blessings!
y@};-
Anytime! Absolutely understand where you are coming from too and completely agree...

However, I still find God sets me straight. :esmile:

God Bless!
Ha I'm a work in progress also.
Still being set straight everyday, over and over again!
Three steps forward two steps back but inching in the right direction ;)
True for us all! True!

Then one day, we'll all be made perfect without flaws, no bad hair days, joy indescribable!

:amen:
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Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:03 am
by B. W.
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.

They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
I wonder why you think the things in bold? I understand the first concept just fine, its simple enough.
The second just is not so, at least, not of me.
Audie, I find your response to Paul interesting in this regard: The second just is not so, at least, not of me. How can the second be not so and not of me since there is no reason to be accountable as one cannot be held accountable by God because death is mere oblivion? Who made you the arbitrator of truth and right. Could it be that you made yourself out as a god in your own eyes and live by your own rules - only responsible to self and self needs? Then the second bold should be something you can relate too.

Do not the testimonies from former atheist mean anything to you at all? You have a conscience, as what you write here clearly demonstrates - why? So I ask: What good is a conscience if the world is amorally founded upon accidentals?
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Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:37 am
by B. W.
Kenny wrote:I'm curious; when you were an atheist; was atheism as much a part of your life as Christianity is now?

Ken
Like Squbble mentioned - I bounced into agnosticism briefly and then into full fledged militant atheism that was prevalent in the late 1960's through till 1980. The only difference in the modern day atheism of the 2010 to current date era is one of terms and definitions. The philosophy is the same as is the search for evidence and twisting of evidence too. The attitude is the same as well as you have the mild atheist who live and let live and defend religious liberties, the moderate atheist who just go with the flow and cause no ruckus towards people of faith, and then you have the militant types who like to pick fights and debate people of faith, I used to be the militant type.

Like other atheist of either class type, I used to class all religions as being the same, yet, for some reason, Christianity was the one I used to hate the most, for absolutely no good reason other than it simplly posed a question to me: Trust Jesus and he will change your life for the better freely. So I thought irrationally - How dare they call me a sinner and tell me what I can do and not do! The other religions did not challenge me as these were all works based systems and each never claimed I was an amoral reprobate but made it a point that I could still do some good - like save the whales, save the fuzzy caterpillars, save the chimps, mother earth - but save humans - no - they need population control, unless they demanded I be controlled!

Christianity provoked me. Looking back, it was as if my conscience was being prodded to wake up but I kept refusing and a smoldering disdain emerged. I launched into militant atheism as a means to justify my NOT hearing God knocking on my proverbial door simply offering me a simple choice to accept or reject Him. No other system offers that choice. The others are works based as it is all about you doing this to earn favor or goodies or offered blind submission or else as Islam does. The religion of humanism and atheism offers no solace either as one must accept it or face ridicule or ostracization on societal scale. Yes, both are belief systems and hence are religions of self and human (achievement) oriented worship. The modern atheist may not like to hear that, and at one time, I did not either but atheism and its kissing cousin humanism are religions of self actualization without hope, reward, or purpose (truly all is vanity without God).

When Christ Jesus awoke me. I found reason and purpose and joy that no human mind can figure out and it aided me through overcoming trials, toils, and snares in life. I used to think humanism offered the same or the other world's religious systems and attempted to back up my thought with warped evidence. Yes, other systems only can go so far. The difference, they cannot erase emptiness nor help one walk in the light of life.

So again, Kenny:

What do you truly believe in?

Will it last?
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Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:44 am
by Audie
B. W. wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.

They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
I wonder why you think the things in bold? I understand the first concept just fine, its simple enough.
The second just is not so, at least, not of me.
Audie, I find your response to Paul interesting in this regard: The second just is not so, at least, not of me. How can the second be not so and not of me since there is no reason to be accountable as one cannot be held accountable by God because death is mere oblivion? Who made you the arbitrator of truth and right. Could it be that you made yourself out as a god in your own eyes and live by your own rules - only responsible to self and self needs? Then the second bold should be something you can relate too.

Do not the testimonies from former atheist mean anything to you at all? You have a conscience, as what you write here clearly demonstrates - why? So I ask: What good is a conscience if the world is amorally founded upon accidentals?
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No reason to be accountable to my family, to myself and my society? That is so far from so! I do apparently have different reasons from yours, but they are none the less compelling. Possibly in some way, more so, as I dont have any comfort in a belief that my sins can be washed away. If I did it, Im responsible.

Living a life of depravity just because in the end I can get away with it is so unappealing! Every minute of my life is then something spoilt. That is no life.

I am certainly not the "arbiter of what is right." (Truth is not the topic here)
My cultural background provided me with the moral standards that I should live by.

If there is a God, I do not believe he would want us to be automatons who do not use our minds and judgement. We all have to; "thou shalt not steal" is good, and all cultures probably accept that as a rule. Yet, there can be an overriding consideration, a moral conflict, a greater evil in not stealing. We all have to do our best, and accept the consequences.

Testimony of former atheists...sure it means something, for all that I dont see things as you do. We have former liberals who became conservatives; we have Christians who renounced their faith. "Atheist" is not all one thing, generally american atheists come from a religious background, which I do not. For them to go back to religion is far less surprising than if I were to embrace something so utterly alien to me.

What good is a conscience? Its what holds society together, in large part. Even dogs show a semblance of conscience, and know not to steal. That a conscience could be an evolved characteristic seems not strange at all to me.

"Amorally founded on accidentals" is not something Im sure I know what you mean.

I kind of think that the dinosaurs were amoral, tbn they tended their young and
may have cooperated in various ways. But the same behaviour in people is now said to be moral. And, it is. Plus, we do a whole lot more and more complex morality, but I see it having humble origins.

As for accidents, as you put it, all about we see a combination of randomness and order, forces that build up and forces that tear down. Everything has a random component to it.... but that maybe is for another time.

At any rate, the idea that I would see myself as my own god is really rather extraordinary, to me. I think I know where one is coming from, thinking that, but
it really is not at all how I function.

Does that answer?

ps BW, looking at your response to Kenny, describing your experience as an atheist, I have to say we share next to nothing in common, in that regard.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:51 am
by PaulSacramento
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.

They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
I wonder why you think the things in bold? I understand the first concept just fine, its simple enough.
The second just is not so, at least, not of me.

IME, atheists (especially former believers) tend to disbelieve in a God that isn't really existing in any of the religious texts, not if you actually read and understand what they say.
Christianity for example, they start from the premise that God i s love and if He is love then He can't/shouldn't permit suffering that He can cause to not exist ( such as natural evil).
The problem is that, beside there not being any such thing as evil in nature, God is not JUST a god of Love AND that love as we know it is only a small part of love as God knows it.
EX:
If God is love why would He take away from humans things that make them better? things that make them closer to be perfect? things that take them closer to a state of eternal bliss?
He wouldn't of course BUT the problem is that suffering and pain and death do JUST THAT so God "can't" eliminate them for the very reason that those things are needed for humans to understand love and become love.

So the skeptic decides that God must be THIS and he must be THIS because THIS thing the skeptic can easily show to no exist ( or at least not be worthy or worship IF He exists).
Then the atheist makes it clear that ANY argument that shows his argument to be even POSSIBLY wrong is rejected simply on the premise of :
I don't agree.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:12 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:
Audie wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.

Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.

The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.

They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
I wonder why you think the things in bold? I understand the first concept just fine, its simple enough.
The second just is not so, at least, not of me.

IME, atheists (especially former believers) tend to disbelieve in a God that isn't really existing in any of the religious texts, not if you actually read and understand what they say.
Christianity for example, they start from the premise that God i s love and if He is love then He can't/shouldn't permit suffering that He can cause to not exist ( such as natural evil).
The problem is that, beside there not being any such thing as evil in nature, God is not JUST a god of Love AND that love as we know it is only a small part of love as God knows it.
EX:
If God is love why would He take away from humans things that make them better? things that make them closer to be perfect? things that take them closer to a state of eternal bliss?
He wouldn't of course BUT the problem is that suffering and pain and death do JUST THAT so God "can't" eliminate them for the very reason that those things are needed for humans to understand love and become love.

So the skeptic decides that God must be THIS and he must be THIS because THIS thing the skeptic can easily show to no exist ( or at least not be worthy or worship IF He exists).
Then the atheist makes it clear that ANY argument that shows his argument to be even POSSIBLY wrong is rejected simply on the premise of :
I don't agree.
That is fair; IME, the religious, at least most of them, believe in a god that does not exist. Surely but one of the myriad religions that ever were must be wrong. And Christians have such different idea of the God they worship! To me, the Christian God may be real-how would I know-but the one who did the flood is not real, as that event is fiction.

I think in a similar way to what you say of disbelief in a God that does not exist, I would say that the theory of evolution, and the geology of deep time are disbelieved by many Christians, but, they without exception in my experience, disbelieve a "ToE" that is the product of their imagination, and not at all accurate to what they'd know if they actually read, and understood what it is about.

Not to make this a "creo-evo" thing, just making a sort of parallel. Like this.."So the skeptic decides that God must be THIS and he must be THIS because THIS thing the skeptic can easily show to no exist"

Zactly the same! Including this.."Then the atheist (creationist) makes it clear that ANY argument that shows his argument to be even POSSIBLY wrong is rejected simply on the premise of :
I don't agree"
(make that "coz the bible...")


In any case, I find the argument against God provided by the "if He is good but permits suffering then..." to be shallow and silly. If someone came up with it for the first time, fine, explain. If they want to stick to it anyway, then why bother.

There is btw, a huge difference between myself, one with no religious background and a former Christian who has fallen away. A difference that not even they are likely to understand.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:28 am
by PaulSacramento
I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:41 am
by Audie
PaulSacramento wrote:I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.
As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

Re: Is there a God?

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:05 am
by RickD
Audie wrote:
You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.
Nobody is born an atheist.