B. W. wrote:Audie wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:I tend to agree.
The hardest thing for an atheist to fathom ( and a reason I don't typically go there) is the notion that death is, well, irrelevant.
It is NOT final and God knows this so why would he view death in any other way as He views anything else that may happen to us?
People dying because of a tsunami ( an event that keeps being used to show that there is no God because He could have either prevented it or warned of it, but didn't) is just another ever for God.
It MAY sound cruel but it is actually the opposite.
God allowing for suffering and death of ALL means that ALL are viewed the same and ALL have the chance to be saved by His grace.
A child dying in a tsunami is horrific for us, yes and it should be, BUT for God that child is NOT dead, simply changed, freed from his/her material form and just one step closer to God.
Yes, it is painful for us, even US that believe but that is because we do NOT fully grasp the notion of death not being final.
Of course this argument is moot for the atheist because he does NOT accept the possibility of death NOT being final and suffering NOT having a purpose so all he can do is state that there is no God because people suffer and die and there is no poin to that and if there was a God and IF He were loving, He would NOT allow it.
The atheist creates his OWN God, in his OWN way and then goes about showing that he does NOT exist.
They are right of course because THAT God, THEIR God does NOT exist.
I wonder why you think the things in bold? I understand the first concept just fine, its simple enough.
The second just is not so, at least, not of me.
Audie, I find your response to Paul interesting in this regard:
The second just is not so, at least, not of me. How can the
second be not so and
not of me since there is no reason to be accountable as one cannot be held accountable by God because death is mere oblivion? Who made you the arbitrator of truth and right. Could it be that you made yourself out as a god in your own eyes and live by your own rules - only responsible to self and self needs? Then the second bold should be something you can relate too.
Do not the testimonies from former atheist mean anything to you at all? You have a conscience, as what you write here clearly demonstrates - why? So I ask: What good is a conscience if the world is amorally founded upon accidentals?
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No reason to be accountable to my family, to myself and my society? That is so far from so! I do apparently have different reasons from yours, but they are none the less compelling. Possibly in some way, more so, as I dont have any comfort in a belief that my sins can be washed away. If I did it, Im responsible.
Living a life of depravity just because in the end I can get away with it is so unappealing! Every minute of my life is then something spoilt. That is no life.
I am certainly not the "arbiter of what is right." (Truth is not the topic here)
My cultural background provided me with the moral standards that I should live by.
If there is a God, I do not believe he would want us to be automatons who do not use our minds and judgement. We all have to; "thou shalt not steal" is good, and all cultures probably accept that as a rule. Yet, there can be an overriding consideration, a moral conflict, a greater evil in not stealing. We all have to do our best, and accept the consequences.
Testimony of former atheists...sure it means something, for all that I dont see things as you do. We have former liberals who became conservatives; we have Christians who renounced their faith. "Atheist" is not all one thing, generally american atheists come from a religious background, which I do not. For them to go back to religion is far less surprising than if I were to embrace something so utterly alien to me.
What good is a conscience? Its what holds society together, in large part. Even dogs show a semblance of conscience, and know not to steal. That a conscience could be an evolved characteristic seems not strange at all to me.
"Amorally founded on accidentals" is not something Im sure I know what you mean.
I kind of think that the dinosaurs were amoral, tbn they tended their young and
may have cooperated in various ways. But the same behaviour in people is now said to be moral. And, it is. Plus, we do a whole lot more and more complex morality, but I see it having humble origins.
As for accidents, as you put it, all about we see a combination of randomness and order, forces that build up and forces that tear down. Everything has a random component to it.... but that maybe is for another time.
At any rate, the idea that I would see myself as my own god is really rather extraordinary, to me. I think I know where one is coming from, thinking that, but
it really is not at all how I function.
Does that answer?
ps BW, looking at your response to Kenny, describing your experience as an atheist, I have to say we share next to nothing in common, in that regard.
