Evidence for God from Science

Starhunter wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Audie wrote:I wonder how a person can really say what God can or cannot do?

As for matter and energy, the law that they cannot be created or destroyed is a human construct, based on observation and calculations.

It cannot be proved to be true. Possibly, it will be disproved.

God by His very nature of BEING God can NOT change because to suggest God can change is to state that God there is something incomplete or imperfect or some NEED that God has that requires Him to change.
It isn't a question of CAN God change, it is a question of WHY would God change? into what? to do what? that He can't already do or be?
It doesn't make any sense to suggest God can change.
As for energy, we know that energy is not God because energy has no intellect or will or intention other than what it is given.
God has energy, can even BE energy but is NOT JUST energy anymore than He is just intention or just spirit.

The unchanging God. This is one key to understanding the nature of the universe and how it was created. It will always be a mystery, but that does not mean we cannot form ideas of the truth now, and benefit from that knowledge by being able to predict the behavior or state of existence of many things we can observe in nature.

God does not change in character, and while He has not revealed His physical existence or nature of His existence, simply because there is no concept that will fit into the mind of man, He has revealed who He is, in heart and personality. This knowledge opens up the universe from one perspective, and tells us that every intention of any part of creation is for love. So to look up there and say things like, to quote an idiot, "the universe is full of dark and malevolent forces" is a lie.

So there are definite things we can say about God and about His creation, based on two things, our faith in Who He is, and our observation of those things we believe from Him.
It is His will that we do this, so that the world around us becomes the evidence of His immediate works.

Indeed it does. You are so right in your observation of love. It proceeds every intention and sustains it. That is the 'light' pure, perfect love. Without resides nothingness, hopelessness.

Mazzy wrote:
Humans only predate biblical times if one has faith in current dating methods. The other point is that many Christians take genesis use of the term father as being a fore father, not necessarily the direct father of a son. That means that mankind could be 200,000 years old and biblical text credible remaining in line with current dating methods.

No Maz, its not "only if". Your ancestors lived, knew joy and pain, and survived, making your life possible whether you choose
to acknowledge and honour them, or not.

It seems to me a great shame to dismiss them, saying they never even existed

Assuming God is omnipotent, then God has the ability to spontaneously creates reality as he imagines it. The more interesting question is what creates God's thoughts in the first place. It's hard to imagine what our brain is doing between thougthts. I imagine God's brain has the same limitation. But maybe an omnipotent God does not have any thoughts at all. Maybe an omnipotent God's mind is not bounded by sequential thoughts, time, or physical form. Is it possible for God to have a thought so complex that even he can't understand it? Of course he can. The nature of omnipotence and God having omnipotent powers means God can be male, female, and without any gender all at once.

I think how God creates is by using his omnipotent time travel powers to bring realities from the future into existence without even thinking about them in the present. It may sound paradoxal but God's omnipotence is even byond the idea of paradox.

I think all words including the word "create" are human contructs. An omnipotent God is not bounded by the constraints of human language. Words are just not strong enough to contain God's omnipotence. God doesn't create. God IS the source of anything and everything that is possible. All that is meaningful can only occur in the presence of its non-existing counter thought. God doesn't create anything because everything that can possibly occur is already part of God's conscious existence in the future.

Audie wrote:

Mazzy wrote:
Humans only predate biblical times if one has faith in current dating methods. The other point is that many Christians take genesis use of the term father as being a fore father, not necessarily the direct father of a son. That means that mankind could be 200,000 years old and biblical text credible remaining in line with current dating methods.

No Maz, its not "only if". Your ancestors lived, knew joy and pain, and survived, making your life possible whether you choose
to acknowledge and honour them, or not.

It seems to me a great shame to dismiss them, saying they never even existed

No offense to you but I think you are fulfilling bible prophecy without maybe even knowing it.2nd Peter 3:3-4. How could Peter know 2000 years ago that today in the last days scoffers would come saying "since our fathers died all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation?this means there are no gaps since the beginning and science teaches this today in the last days.God wanted us to know what we would be dealing with and we are dealing with it and you are an example although you might not be mocking,you are talking about what you think are our fathers that died.It is evidence that the bible is true and that God knows the future long before it happens.When I listen to atheistic scientific minded people mocking God today I know they are proving God's word true without even realizing it strengthening my faith in God's word.When I read what science teaches and believes that the world has gone on for billions of years I know they are overlooking the gap.

dfnj wrote:Maybe an omnipotent God's mind is not bounded by sequential thoughts, time, or physical form.

Up until the last fifty to one hundred years, this was the standard view. God is not a temporal being. He does not have sequential (that is, discursive) thoughts. He does not even have separate, distinct thoughts. He simply has The Thought. To bend your mind some more, it is strictly incorrect to say God has The Thought. Rather, God is identical with The Thought. God just is what He does. His choice to will us into existence is identical with what He is. And that is inclusive of all He knows.

To clarify that a tad bit, think about the word "bachelor." If you know what that means, you automatically grasp the meaning of the word "man" and the meaning "unmarried." You likewise automatically grasp the fact the relationship between these words--that some men are unmarried, and those men are what we call "bachelors." So the point is that in knowing "bachelor," you automatically know several other concepts within that concept. In modern philosophy, we say those underlying concepts are analytically present.

The same thing is true of more abstract ideas, like the idea of triangularity. Now, this may not be self-evident to you if you haven't studied geometry, but the fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of ideas that are analytically present to the notion. Some of the obvious are three sides, a total of 180 degrees, that for any angle ABC the opposite angle XBY is congruent, etc. All of that is intrinsic to the definition of triangularity. So what happens is that the geometrician thinks sequentially/discursively about the idea of triangularity until he discovers those deeper, more basic truths. Once he sees any given truth, he sees that it is self-evident and knows it immediately (even if he is not thinking about it in that moment) in the definition of "triangle." Again, the concept is that to fully know a concept entails knowing those ideas that are present within it.

Now, on the classical view, God is Existence Itself. Strictly, what God knows, first and foremost, is Himself. In knowing Himself, He knows Existence fully and completely, and He knows all analytically present ideas fully and completely. That is, He knows all ways that Existence could be or actually are (since anything that could or does exist, could or does because God has so willed it; therefore, the old adage is is that thing are because God knows them). That is what the Church has traditionally meant when she says that God is omniscient. That also means that in knowing what is--which is just what God is (The Act of Knowledge)--God causes all that is to be (that is, He creates it). Of course, we can't say that something already exists and God "learns" of it, and then knows it. That would mean that the thing exists before God creates it! Nor can we say that God creates it, and upon creating it, then learns of its existence. I hope you see that such language is just silly. What this entails is creation out of nothing. "Before" creation, there was nothing to know. But by the very act of knowing (which, more fundamentally, is to say God's Very Act of Being What He Decided to Be) God brought us into existence.

No sequential, discursive thought there. Just unlimited, unmitigated, absolute freedom--in a single act of knowing.

Hope that wasn't too opaque!

Jac3510 wrote:

dfnj wrote:Maybe an omnipotent God's mind is not bounded by sequential thoughts, time, or physical form.

Up until the last fifty to one hundred years, this was the standard view. God is not a temporal being. He does not have sequential (that is, discursive) thoughts. He does not even have separate, distinct thoughts. He simply has The Thought. To bend your mind some more, it is strictly incorrect to say God has The Thought. Rather, God is identical with The Thought. God just is what He does. His choice to will us into existence is identical with what He is. And that is inclusive of all He knows.

To clarify that a tad bit, think about the word "bachelor." If you know what that means, you automatically grasp the meaning of the word "man" and the meaning "unmarried." You likewise automatically grasp the fact the relationship between these words--that some men are unmarried, and those men are what we call "bachelors." So the point is that in knowing "bachelor," you automatically know several other concepts within that concept. In modern philosophy, we say those underlying concepts are analytically present.

The same thing is true of more abstract ideas, like the idea of triangularity. Now, this may not be self-evident to you if you haven't studied geometry, but the fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of ideas that are analytically present to the notion. Some of the obvious are three sides, a total of 180 degrees, that for any angle ABC the opposite angle XBY is congruent, etc. All of that is intrinsic to the definition of triangularity. So what happens is that the geometrician thinks sequentially/discursively about the idea of triangularity until he discovers those deeper, more basic truths. Once he sees any given truth, he sees that it is self-evident and knows it immediately (even if he is not thinking about it in that moment) in the definition of "triangle." Again, the concept is that to fully know a concept entails knowing those ideas that are present within it.

Now, on the classical view, God is Existence Itself. Strictly, what God knows, first and foremost, is Himself. In knowing Himself, He knows Existence fully and completely, and He knows all analytically present ideas fully and completely. That is, He knows all ways that Existence could be or actually are (since anything that could or does exist, could or does because God has so willed it; therefore, the old adage is is that thing are because God knows them). That is what the Church has traditionally meant when she says that God is omniscient. That also means that in knowing what is--which is just what God is (The Act of Knowledge)--God causes all that is to be (that is, He creates it). Of course, we can't say that something already exists and God "learns" of it, and then knows it. That would mean that the thing exists before God creates it! Nor can we say that God creates it, and upon creating it, then learns of its existence. I hope you see that such language is just silly. What this entails is creation out of nothing. "Before" creation, there was nothing to know. But by the very act of knowing (which, more fundamentally, is to say God's Very Act of Being What He Decided to Be) God brought us into existence.

No sequential, discursive thought there. Just unlimited, unmitigated, absolute freedom--in a single act of knowing.

Hope that wasn't too opaque!

Jac I appreciate your way of explaining things but I think you may go over some people's heads sometimes.I used to have a friend who made bible prophecy charts but unless you knew a lot about bible prophecy they would go over your head.I learned a lot from him though.

Jac3510 wrote:

dfnj wrote:Maybe an omnipotent God's mind is not bounded by sequential thoughts, time, or physical form.

Up until the last fifty to one hundred years, this was the standard view. God is not a temporal being. He does not have sequential (that is, discursive) thoughts. He does not even have separate, distinct thoughts. He simply has The Thought. To bend your mind some more, it is strictly incorrect to say God has The Thought. Rather, God is identical with The Thought. God just is what He does. His choice to will us into existence is identical with what He is. And that is inclusive of all He knows.

To clarify that a tad bit, think about the word "bachelor." If you know what that means, you automatically grasp the meaning of the word "man" and the meaning "unmarried." You likewise automatically grasp the fact the relationship between these words--that some men are unmarried, and those men are what we call "bachelors." So the point is that in knowing "bachelor," you automatically know several other concepts within that concept. In modern philosophy, we say those underlying concepts are analytically present.

The same thing is true of more abstract ideas, like the idea of triangularity. Now, this may not be self-evident to you if you haven't studied geometry, but the fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of ideas that are analytically present to the notion. Some of the obvious are three sides, a total of 180 degrees, that for any angle ABC the opposite angle XBY is congruent, etc. All of that is intrinsic to the definition of triangularity. So what happens is that the geometrician thinks sequentially/discursively about the idea of triangularity until he discovers those deeper, more basic truths. Once he sees any given truth, he sees that it is self-evident and knows it immediately (even if he is not thinking about it in that moment) in the definition of "triangle." Again, the concept is that to fully know a concept entails knowing those ideas that are present within it.

Now, on the classical view, God is Existence Itself. Strictly, what God knows, first and foremost, is Himself. In knowing Himself, He knows Existence fully and completely, and He knows all analytically present ideas fully and completely. That is, He knows all ways that Existence could be or actually are (since anything that could or does exist, could or does because God has so willed it; therefore, the old adage is is that thing are because God knows them). That is what the Church has traditionally meant when she says that God is omniscient. That also means that in knowing what is--which is just what God is (The Act of Knowledge)--God causes all that is to be (that is, He creates it). Of course, we can't say that something already exists and God "learns" of it, and then knows it. That would mean that the thing exists before God creates it! Nor can we say that God creates it, and upon creating it, then learns of its existence. I hope you see that such language is just silly. What this entails is creation out of nothing. "Before" creation, there was nothing to know. But by the very act of knowing (which, more fundamentally, is to say God's Very Act of Being What He Decided to Be) God brought us into existence.

No sequential, discursive thought there. Just unlimited, unmitigated, absolute freedom--in a single act of knowing.

Hope that wasn't too opaque!

Makes me happy when I try to explain this to my son and he says with a happy smile "God is a tree".

dfnj wrote:Assuming God is omnipotent, then God has the ability to spontaneously creates reality as he imagines it. The more interesting question is what creates God's thoughts in the first place. It's hard to imagine what our brain is doing between thougthts. I imagine God's brain has the same limitation. But maybe an omnipotent God does not have any thoughts at all. Maybe an omnipotent God's mind is not bounded by sequential thoughts, time, or physical form. Is it possible for God to have a thought so complex that even he can't understand it? Of course he can. The nature of omnipotence and God having omnipotent powers means God can be male, female, and without any gender all at once.

I think how God creates is by using his omnipotent time travel powers to bring realities from the future into existence without even thinking about them in the present. It may sound paradoxal but God's omnipotence is even byond the idea of paradox.

I think all words including the word "create" are human contructs. An omnipotent God is not bounded by the constraints of human language. Words are just not strong enough to contain God's omnipotence. God doesn't create. God IS the source of anything and everything that is possible. All that is meaningful can only occur in the presence of its non-existing counter thought. God doesn't create anything because everything that can possibly occur is already part of God's conscious existence in the future.

We are obviously constrained by our experience and conjectures and I guess having made us in His image ad spoken to us through nature and revelation, we have a great resource to enjoy observing the universe with the correct philosophy as a key to unlock mysteries.

You can tell that I have steered away from guessing about God's existence, and I agree with you about God being outside of our language and concepts etc.
It is nice to hear your thoughts, I have attempted to think along those lines, coming to a similar conclusion, that God is what He is and is not constrained by past, present or future or by any events in any sequence. That things can be opened, closed or spread out to any degree or number with perfect synchronicity and application. The ability to relate to a trillion beings at once, hearing a millions voices at once, and relating to all as if there were no other, is a wonder, and fortunate!

Another point you made about creating.
Yes it seems like God does not create as we think, but that whatever exists is a consequence of His everlasting and ever present existence, rather than a curtailed event. Because nature is infused with infinite knowledge, indicating that God has put everything into His creation and that creation is not a snippet of a work, but a wholistic event, where God gives Himself to it. So there is no specific time that creation started, except that it had a beginning, but when that beginning was is always and never. It is an omniscient work, a work of eternal values.

Jesus said "I am the beginning and the ending." He being the means by which God creates. He did not say I make beginnings and I make endings which He surely does, but I am that beginning and ending - simultaneously, both at once, always beginning and always ending what? Creation. Creation is a result of a constant flow that begins and ends with Jesus Christ all the time, as far as we are concerned.
But the Bible also says, the word only needs to be spoken once to accomplish whatever, because the word or Christ is eternal and living in the true sense. If we take one portion of the life of God it multiplies into infinity, until it accomplishes what it wants to.
An illustration is the loaves and fishes miracle. The food multiplied until all were fed and then some.

Jac3510 wrote:

dfnj wrote:Maybe an omnipotent God's mind is not bounded by sequential thoughts, time, or physical form.

Up until the last fifty to one hundred years, this was the standard view. God is not a temporal being. He does not have sequential (that is, discursive) thoughts. He does not even have separate, distinct thoughts. He simply has The Thought. To bend your mind some more, it is strictly incorrect to say God has The Thought. Rather, God is identical with The Thought. God just is what He does. His choice to will us into existence is identical with what He is. And that is inclusive of all He knows.

To clarify that a tad bit, think about the word "bachelor." If you know what that means, you automatically grasp the meaning of the word "man" and the meaning "unmarried." You likewise automatically grasp the fact the relationship between these words--that some men are unmarried, and those men are what we call "bachelors." So the point is that in knowing "bachelor," you automatically know several other concepts within that concept. In modern philosophy, we say those underlying concepts are analytically present.

The same thing is true of more abstract ideas, like the idea of triangularity. Now, this may not be self-evident to you if you haven't studied geometry, but the fact of the matter is that there are a whole host of ideas that are analytically present to the notion. Some of the obvious are three sides, a total of 180 degrees, that for any angle ABC the opposite angle XBY is congruent, etc. All of that is intrinsic to the definition of triangularity. So what happens is that the geometrician thinks sequentially/discursively about the idea of triangularity until he discovers those deeper, more basic truths. Once he sees any given truth, he sees that it is self-evident and knows it immediately (even if he is not thinking about it in that moment) in the definition of "triangle." Again, the concept is that to fully know a concept entails knowing those ideas that are present within it.

Now, on the classical view, God is Existence Itself. Strictly, what God knows, first and foremost, is Himself. In knowing Himself, He knows Existence fully and completely, and He knows all analytically present ideas fully and completely. That is, He knows all ways that Existence could be or actually are (since anything that could or does exist, could or does because God has so willed it; therefore, the old adage is is that thing are because God knows them). That is what the Church has traditionally meant when she says that God is omniscient. That also means that in knowing what is--which is just what God is (The Act of Knowledge)--God causes all that is to be (that is, He creates it). Of course, we can't say that something already exists and God "learns" of it, and then knows it. That would mean that the thing exists before God creates it! Nor can we say that God creates it, and upon creating it, then learns of its existence. I hope you see that such language is just silly. What this entails is creation out of nothing. "Before" creation, there was nothing to know. But by the very act of knowing (which, more fundamentally, is to say God's Very Act of Being What He Decided to Be) God brought us into existence.

No sequential, discursive thought there. Just unlimited, unmitigated, absolute freedom--in a single act of knowing.

Hope that wasn't too opaque!

That's pretty clear.

We could go even further and say that God, can be and or experience everything at once, or everything in everlasting and innumerable sequences. Very rich options. That way He is true about walking with us as well as being true to His Omniscience.
Say for eg, He says to the wicked, "I don't know you" is that possible with God or not, without lying.
If God says that He will remember our iniquities no more, is He just saying that, or can He do it?
We can't, at least our wives can't. But God can actually forget something if He chooses. We can't.
When He says to the wicked, I don't know you, He is honest, because He has not invaded their minds, even though He could, He has not chosen to go where He is not welcome. How respectful is that?

Able to know all, yet not knowing anything that does not need to be known. Only knowing what is appropriate as only God can do.
So it is possible for a child to surprise God, and He is genuine about His reaction to it. He never has to pretend about anything, whether knowing all or knowing nothing, but always honest.

Jac3510 wrote:No sequential, discursive thought there. Just unlimited, unmitigated, absolute freedom--in a single act of knowing.
Hope that wasn't too opaque!

In my way of thinking you were perfectly crystal clear.

I sometimes hear the argument that an omniscient God is one that is immoral misses the point of what we are trying to say. Assume for minute our Big Bang was the result of star collapsing to a black hole in another dimension. In this larger view of time, every possible pattern and configuration of reality can occur given the unthinkable amount of never ending time that is going to occur. For a God to know every possible position of every atom and every electron at every single moment of time over such an expanse of reality makes it hard to imagine that such a mind would be capable of judging any one reality as being more important than any other. What we do know, however, based on human experiment, there seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. So given God's seemingly indifference to our morality, one might argue why be moral at all. My answer is the same as having faith in God at all. Being moral is choice each of us must make in the face of not having any supporting evidence to support our choice. If we choose to be moral based on the threat of eternal damnation then that would be a decision. It would be reaction to fear. I think this is the wrong approach. Being moral should be something we choose to be as opposed to something we do out of a reaction to fear. When we choose to have faith, when we choose to be moral, we have a much stronger faith and more profound piety than we would otherwise in my humble opinion. I love science. I love understanding the patterns of nature's behavior. But it has nothing to do with my choices with regards to my own personal spirituality.

Starhunter wrote:Jesus said "I am the beginning and the ending."

This is one of my favorite sayings of Jesus. To the scientist, zero never equals infinity. To the mystic, zero equals infinity. The idea of zero, that is nothingness, and the idea of infinity, that is everything are almost identical in the sense that as ideas they are the end points of our brain's thinking limitations. The idea of Jesus is inside the end points and outside the end points at the same time is very mystical and profound thought. If you add two infinities together you just get infinity. It's like cloud algebra. With cloud algebra 1 + 1 = 1. I think the more interesting idea is zero divided by infinity. What does that mean? Mathematical orthodoxy would argue zero divided by infinity is undefined. But let's think about it for a minute. Can you divide nothingness into an infinite number of pieces. I would argue you just end up with a whole lot of little pieces of nothingness. If you add them all back together the sum of all the bits is nothingness. The other side of the perception would be all the pieces of nothingness were counted there would always be a greater number of nothingness bits than all the pieces of somethingness so zero divided by infinity equals infinity. So which one is it? What does it mean to say "I am the alpha and the omega" all at the same time. I think it's and idea that sits inside our head that is a representation of something that is unthinkable in the mind. What Jesus was saying was his mind was in tune with or in complete harmony with the mind of God.

The funny thing about nothingness is you can't prove it exists.

I'll read your posts carefully and get back to you later.

dfnj wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:No sequential, discursive thought there. Just unlimited, unmitigated, absolute freedom--in a single act of knowing.
Hope that wasn't too opaque!

... For a God to know every possible position of every atom and every electron at every single moment of time over such an expanse of reality makes it hard to imagine that such a mind would be capable of judging any one reality as being more important than any other. What we do know, however, based on human experiment, there seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. So given God's seemingly indifference to our morality, one might argue why be moral at all.

Some people rightly believe that God can do anything and is not limited to this universe, or this particular reality. I guess they are saying that the possibilities with God are immeasurable.

But I don't agree with other outcomes in creating this universe, as this creation is what He says is very good. Such a creation would be only the perfect best, so to speak. As far as realities are concerned, He is the one and only reality, and His works are only one expression, the perfect best of who He is as creator. This work is based on His immutable and unchanging character.
Now this may sound like it is limiting God, but He has made the universe in such a way that every good variation and possibility is intrinsically in there already, and if not, then it will occur in there at some time. So the universe is a single perfection which includes all the good variants, to such an extent that it can never be explored and known at once. It is for all practical purposes - infinite.

Hi Starhunter, I always thought God could only do things which are according to his character, like for example God cannot do evil or make a rock so heavy that he couldn't lift it etc....... It strikes me as a little odd to say that God can to anything.

dfnj wrote:

Starhunter wrote:Jesus said "I am the beginning and the ending."

This is one of my favorite sayings of Jesus. To the scientist, zero never equals infinity. To the mystic, zero equals infinity. The idea of zero, that is nothingness, and the idea of infinity, that is everything are almost identical in the sense that as ideas they are the end points of our brain's thinking limitations. The idea of Jesus is inside the end points and outside the end points at the same time is very mystical and profound thought. If you add two infinities together you just get infinity. It's like cloud algebra. With cloud algebra 1 + 1 = 1. I think the more interesting idea is zero divided by infinity. What does that mean? Mathematical orthodoxy would argue zero divided by infinity is undefined. But let's think about it for a minute. Can you divide nothingness into an infinite number of pieces. I would argue you just end up with a whole lot of little pieces of nothingness. If you add them all back together the sum of all the bits is nothingness. The other side of the perception would be all the pieces of nothingness were counted there would always be a greater number of nothingness bits than all the pieces of somethingness so zero divided by infinity equals infinity. So which one is it? What does it mean to say "I am the alpha and the omega" all at the same time. I think it's and idea that sits inside our head that is a representation of something that is unthinkable in the mind. What Jesus was saying was his mind was in tune with or in complete harmony with the mind of God.

The funny thing about nothingness is you can't prove it exists.

What you have proposed here is not all that popular, but very interesting and important to know if you were to study the way that the universe exists.

God creates by and through His Son. This is repeated often in Scripture. Some see that only Christ is the creator, this is both true and false. If the Son did not become the means by which God creates then there would be no creation, but if the Father does not give His power over to the Son, there is no creation either.
One of the God head has to make a place for creation to occur by not exercising any of their power, or holding back infinite power for one moment or a time. Once that power is held back then there can be a difference in the power between the One and the other Persons of the Godhead. That difference of power, even though only given for a Day, is enough energy to create the entire universe and maintain it forever.

Here is how it works, and includes what you were saying.

Father = infinite power
Son = infinite power
Spirit = infinite power

The Son who is equal with God, now with holds that power for a moment. Why? because nothing can exist with infinite power without it being consumed even before it existed. Infinite power burns backwards and forwards in time. "God is a consuming fire" to anything temporal or created. Unless God has permitted it to exist by His own authority and work.

Father = infinite power (Positive)
Son = infinite nothingness or powerlessness.(Negative)
Spirit = infinite power

Now we have an infinite flow of energy between the positive power and the negative, so to speak.

The Father gives all and more infinite multiplied power to the Son.
The Son receives all infinite power from the Father plus multiplications of it.
The Spirit intercedes this transaction of infinite power in transition.

So here we have an infinite vault of power to create a universe with infinite properties, even though it is finite.
No wonder it is so great, and no wonder God has made countless stars and galaxies, in endless space.

This transaction of power is described in the Bible as The Father speaking The Word, which is Christ, seeing that all the Father's power is contained in His Word or unction of creation. So Christ is the Word of God, but also God, because He receives all of God's power and life, in the creation transaction.

The intercession or governance of the Spirit is totally necessary in this high powered transaction. Why? because neither the Father or Son have done this reservedly, and it is such a horrendous action that every particle of it has to fall into a specific place, as wanted by them all. So we have infinite power plus effort for precise results by the Spirit.

So the creation act, entails the efforts of the Father to give all, the efforts of the Son to cause an infinite vault for that power, and the efforts of the Spirit to cause a precise and measured action according to their will.

Once that has taken place, there is an infinite result of energy, which keeps going on forever.

The same positions and actions of the Godhead are repeated in salvation. The Son gives up power as God and becomes a man, the Father honors His Son with all power in heaven and earth, and the Spirit intercedes all the things necessary for salvation to man.

Salvation = Sacrifice, empowerment and application. Creation = Sacrifice, empowerment and application.