Atheists: Does anything attract you to Christianity?

[Philip]

Paul: Either way it doesn't look good since the bible states that the universe came to be in a single act of "creation" ( big bang) and that there is another plan of existences besides this one, heaven ( multi universe).

Well, not to get to off the subject, but the Bible never says THIS time / this universe is the only one that has ever existed. It's just that this is the only one that it mentions (sorry, ACB). And IF some such other universe exists, for our purposes, it's like that proverbial tree that falls in the forest without anyone there to hear or see it. If we can't see, hear or discern other creations of God, what do they truly matter to us? God has ALWAYS existed. He is magnificently creative and active - these are His stated characteristics. Who is to say what GOD created before, which no longer - or even might still exist? Are we saying that a prolifically powerful and creative God just waited all of eternal pre-history, until 14 billion years ago, to NEVER have created on a magnificent scale, whether in spiritual dimensions or physical ones. Was all past eternity God thinking to Himself, "Gee, I just can't wait until that age arrives in which I'll created a physical universe and put humans in it!" Fact is, we just don't know what He has done. All we can know is what He has revealed to us and what we can discern. But the REAL issue is that GOD created everything past and present that has existed. This would include any possible past (or even present) universes and dimensions.

[PaulSacramento]

It should be noted that the multiverse hypothesis states that the big bang COULD have caused multiple universes to have come to be as the universe expanded.
No evidence of this of course, though some hope that the detection of gravitational waves will be evidence of this.
None of this mitigates the Big Bang of course, only that more than one universe MAy have come of it.

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/10334 ... iverse.htm

[Kenny]

Absolutely, a derivative cannot have more power or intelligence than its source; it cannot do more than it was given capability, design and programming.

How do you know this?

Ken, what sprang from that singularity is of such unfathable design and function, from the galactic level down to the microscopic, that we scarcely understand more than a tiny portion of it. NO supercomputer built by man is remotely close to the intricate design and functionality of a simple cell. From that singularity sprang immense, incomprehensible intelligent design and function, not to mention unfathomable power and scale of its reach. So, either this eternally existing singularity or some related, eternal, and prior component had its incredible sophistication and power. Bottom line, SOME eternal, incredibly powerful entity is responsible for all that exists.

Sorry about the bong comment.

As I said before, if you don't accept actual infinities exist then that is all you need to reject the notion that there could be an infinite chain of cause and effect. On the other hand if you do accept that everything has a prior cause then it seems impossible to explain how the 'first thing' could have happened.

Basically, it looks as if the universe shouldn't exist - but, despite the philosophical inconvenience - it does.
I take this to imply that whatever happened back then, intuition and simple common-sense logic is not going to tell us anything very useful. We must be missing an essential piece of the puzzle and until someone finds it, the origin of the universe is going to - or rather will appear to - defy logic.

As I see it, the Cosmological Argument (the argument you seem to be making) says something very obviously true - the origin of the universe must have been very peculiar. But it is an absurd leap of illogic to conclude universe was created by a god, even worse by God.

Might not one call whatever brought the universe into existence God? Well, maybe, but God is such a loaded term. 'God' implies an entity with a personality, with consciousness and desirses and preferences. For some, it even implies an entity that 'so loved the world he gave his only begotten son' etc., and who provides a home for dead souls. It is obviously going beyond valid logical inference to suppose all that is true just because the origin of the universe was a distinctly odd event.
God is very much 'god of the gaps', and the origin of the universe is a gap. But I doubt if it will be a gap forever. Until then theists can comfort themselves with the cosmological argument and atheists will continue to ignore it.

Ken

[Philip]

Ken, you'll never find that which you don't WANT to find! You'll never find that which you must seek. God will never show you more than you NEED (which is different, depending upon the particular man) - as opposed to what you assert you need. God says to a man, "THIS information is far more than enough for this particular man to know I exist, so that he will then pursue Me so that I will both confirm and subsequently strengthen it." While that particular man says to God (while pretending that God doesn't exist), "But I need THIS level of proof, or THAT specific thing" (and thus keeps moving the target for what proof he supposedly needs). God's response: "I won't give you more because it would be useless to you, because you do not have an INFORMATION problem, and what you assert you need, IF provided, would only be additionally rejected as well. And so, you have enough - it's YOUR responsibility now, I've done MY part. But I won't force your belief, I'll let YOU choose."

God addresses the above in Romans 1:18-25.

[B. W.]

Absolutely, a derivative cannot have more power or intelligence than its source; it cannot do more than it was given capability, design and programming.

How do you know this?

Ken, what sprang from that singularity is of such unfathable design and function, from the galactic level down to the microscopic, that we scarcely understand more than a tiny portion of it. NO supercomputer built by man is remotely close to the intricate design and functionality of a simple cell. From that singularity sprang immense, incomprehensible intelligent design and function, not to mention unfathomable power and scale of its reach. So, either this eternally existing singularity or some related, eternal, and prior component had its incredible sophistication and power. Bottom line, SOME eternal, incredibly powerful entity is responsible for all that exists.

Sorry about the bong comment.

As I said before, if you don't accept actual infinities exist then that is all you need to reject the notion that there could be an infinite chain of cause and effect. On the other hand if you do accept that everything has a prior cause then it seems impossible to explain how the 'first thing' could have happened.

Basically, it looks as if the universe shouldn't exist - but, despite the philosophical inconvenience - it does.
I take this to imply that whatever happened back then, intuition and simple common-sense logic is not going to tell us anything very useful. We must be missing an essential piece of the puzzle and until someone finds it, the origin of the universe is going to - or rather will appear to - defy logic.

As I see it, the Cosmological Argument (the argument you seem to be making) says something very obviously true - the origin of the universe must have been very peculiar. But it is an absurd leap of illogic to conclude universe was created by a god, even worse by God.

Might not one call whatever brought the universe into existence God? Well, maybe, but God is such a loaded term. 'God' implies an entity with a personality, with consciousness and desirses and preferences. For some, it even implies an entity that 'so loved the world he gave his only begotten son' etc., and who provides a home for dead souls. It is obviously going beyond valid logical inference to suppose all that is true just because the origin of the universe was a distinctly odd event.
God is very much 'god of the gaps', and the origin of the universe is a gap. But I doubt if it will be a gap forever. Until then theists can comfort themselves with the cosmological argument and atheists will continue to ignore it.

Ken

During out privet email I brought up...

...We ignore (the existence of God) and pretend by spending a tremendous amount of time justifying that we can't hear him for this or that reason and demand he perform for us (to our satisfaction)...

You hate it when people put expectations and demand your performance or else. Yet you do so toward God as others here. Why should God tap dance for you? He created the universe, allowed you to exist, battles evil at he same time is blamed for the evil and disease we cause!

Again Ken as stated earlier...

...He (God) has been speaking to you for some time but by your very admitted too imperfections, these have stopped up your ears to discount what you hear as valid so that you can continue to justify remaining as you are.... ...making the same old mistakes, succumb to the same old issues. Well, there is freedom from this, Ken.

You are running in circles... and want proof of God existence?

As in the privet email - here is the only method...

God gives salvation freedom freely. All you have to do is want it and admit personally your own dysfunctions to him. It is easy, it is called praying. So I suggest you simply use this prayer as a template and add to it your own words...

Lord Jesus, have mercy upon me, I am a mess, and make so many messes. I ain't perfect and I doubt you so I ask you to release me, forgive me of all my wrongs and things I did awakened my within my own conscience and feel so bad about doing, I did this...

Have mercy upon me and make me know your name and that you are really real, forgive me, cleanse me, make me your own, grant me that new life - born again-ness all those folks tell me about. I want to hear you and know you. I feel let down because last time...

So this time...

I am reaching for you, have mercy on me and all I done, make me born of your Holy Spirit, release me the debts I feel I owe inside, never let me go. Reveal yourself to me by infilling me with your presence, in Jesus' name - amen

Ken - feel free to keep on praying too.

You want to know him and how real he is, well, that is the method... used to verify God is perfect because he came for you...

Blessings

So you think God will make demand on you to perform? Yet it is you who are demanding of him...

Only one way - one method to know him and hear him... come as you are without one plea...

End of story, no ands, buts, or if's about it...
-
-
-

[Storyteller]

Ken...

do you actually want to believe in God?

[B. W.]

Psst: Choosing to believe is choosing self-deception.

Do you believe in yourself then, Audie?
-
-
-

[zacchaeus]

Audie worldview must be corasponding or coherent... With origin, meaning, morality, and our destination.

We're not the only religion to exclaim exclusivity, but we are the only ones that answer the above that have stood the test of time.

[Audie]

Psst: Choosing to believe is choosing self-deception.

Do you believe in yourself then, Audie?
-
-
-

Odd q. Why would you ask that?

[Audie]

Our local little "big bang" may be but one of an infinite number of them.

The "Big Bang" was what set in motion/expanded the UNIVERSE, not our solar system or galaxy.
By definition, it was the beginning of our universe so there were no others.

Suture self, as the doctor kit would put it. But I didnt say "solar system" or something so dimwitted as that.

Define away, our universe, as we parochially like to term it, may be one of an infinite number of such.

Any evidence of that?
No one takes the whole "multiverse" thing seriously, since there is ZERO evidence for it.

Maybe you should reconsider that.

[Audie]

Ken, you'll never find that which you don't WANT to find! You'll never find that which you must seek. God will never show you more than you NEED (which is different, depending upon the particular man) - as opposed to what you assert you need. God says to a man, "THIS information is far more than enough for this particular man to know I exist, so that he will then pursue Me so that I will both confirm and subsequently strengthen it." While that particular man says to God (while pretending that God doesn't exist), "But I need THIS level of proof, or THAT specific thing" (and thus keeps moving the target for what proof he supposedly needs). God's response: "I won't give you more because it would be useless to you, because you do not have an INFORMATION problem, and what you assert you need, IF provided, would only be additionally rejected as well. And so, you have enough - it's YOUR responsibility now, I've done MY part. But I won't force your belief, I'll let YOU choose."

God addresses the above in Romans 1:18-25.

Oh? Nobody finds what they didn't seek? This does not seem like a law of nature.

[Nessa]

God reveals himself to the seeker and the non seeker as far as I'm aware...

[Storyteller]

God reveals himself to the seeker and the non seeker as far as I'm aware...

Then it comes down to whether you choose to believe?

[zacchaeus]

Guess Audie don't see my posts or willfully ignores them.

[Audie]

Guess Audie don't see my posts or willfully ignores them.

Choose to ignore. What do you want from me?