Calvinism vs. Arminianism

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:14 pm

puritan lad wrote:
bizzt wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
There's this thing called 'repentance' (which, of course, doesn't mean much in the Calvinist theology).

Can you make your addresses to Puritan Lad a little more civilized especially when you are talking with a Brother in Christ. Both you may have differences but one that is not is you are both Born Again with the Blood of Christ. The Rest are details
It also shows an ignorance of Calvinism in general. We thrive on the necessity of "repentance".

Indeed!

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:05 pm

puritan lad wrote:
bizzt wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
There's this thing called 'repentance' (which, of course, doesn't mean much in the Calvinist theology).

Can you make your addresses to Puritan Lad a little more civilized especially when you are talking with a Brother in Christ. Both you may have differences but one that is not is you are both Born Again with the Blood of Christ. The Rest are details
It also shows an ignorance of Calvinism in general. We thrive on the necessity of "repentance".

I don't see that, because in Calvinism people don't actually repent. God changes their mind for them, against their natural will.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:07 pm

bizzt wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
There's this thing called 'repentance' (which, of course, doesn't mean much in the Calvinist theology).

Can you make your addresses to Puritan Lad a little more civilized especially when you are talking with a Brother in Christ.

You're right, I should try harder, even though I don'g recognise him as my brother in Christ.

Both you may have differences but one that is not is you are both Born Again with the Blood of Christ.

No, I don't believe we are. And I know I'm regarded as a 'cultist' and a 'non-Christian', so we're Even Steven.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:34 am

Fortigurn wrote:
You're right, I should try harder, even though I don'g recognise him as my brother in Christ.

That is too bad.

Then you would probably not recognize many Christians as Brothers in Christ? (including myself)

Both you may have differences but one that is not is you are both Born Again with the Blood of Christ.

No, I don't believe we are. And I know I'm regarded as a 'cultist' and a 'non-Christian', so we're Even Steven.[/quote]
Interesting... I believe the reason why most might believe you are is because without the Divinity of Christ he could not have Forgiven Sins. That means that we are still living under Sin and Grace is not upon us!

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:57 am

Fortigurn wrote:No, I don't believe we are [Born Again with the Blood of Jesus]. And I know I'm regarded as a 'cultist' and a 'non-Christian', so we're Even Steven.

Ok, let's forget arguing theology and disputing free-will and everything else. There are 3 simple yes/no questions:

Do you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe that He was raised from the dead?

Do you believe that you are a sinner who is justified freely by God's grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus?

Do you believe that you are born again with the blood of Jesus through the repentance of your sin and your acceptance of Jesus and the sacrifice that He has made on your behalf?

I know Puritan, bizzt, Kurieuo, Byblos (the Catholic

), myself, and most others here will answer "yes!" to each of them. This is how we can accept we are brothers in Christ despite some major differences in our understanding of the Gospel of Christ. I pray that we can count you as brother in Christ also; please answer the questions so we can put the matter to rest. If you should answer "no" then we'll continue to love you and pray for you.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:30 am

bizzt wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
You're right, I should try harder, even though I don'g recognise him as my brother in Christ.
That is too bad.
Then you would probably not recognize many Christians as Brothers in Christ? (including myself)

Yes, pretty much. But the favour is almsot always returned, so I don't feel so bad about it. I have to live with being shunned by almost every Christian I meet in this country, and experiencing regular abuse online, so I'm used to it.

Frankly, I have respect for people who at least have sufficient conviction to become so extreme in their responses. At least they're standing up for their beliefs. I'd much rather an anathema from a hard core Calvinist than a hug from a spiritually sloppy ecumenical.

Interesting... I believe the reason why most might believe you are is because without the Divinity of Christ he could not have Forgiven Sins. That means that we are still living under Sin and Grace is not upon us!

Well the problem is that this is begging the question.

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:33 am

Felgar wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:No, I don't believe we are [Born Again with the Blood of Jesus]. And I know I'm regarded as a 'cultist' and a 'non-Christian', so we're Even Steven.
Ok, let's forget arguing theology and disputing free-will and everything else. There are 3 simple yes/no questions:

Do you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe that He was raised from the dead?

Do you believe that you are a sinner who is justified freely by God's grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus?

Do you believe that you are born again with the blood of Jesus through the repentance of your sin and your acceptance of Jesus and the sacrifice that He has made on your behalf?

I can say yes to all of those, but my understanding of Christ, God, redemption, and atonement will be different to yours. This may or may not make a difference to some of you (which is fair enough).

I know Puritan, bizzt, Kurieuo, Byblos (the Catholic ), myself, and most others here will answer "yes!" to each of them. This is how we can accept we are brothers in Christ despite some major differences in our understanding of the Gospel of Christ. I pray that we can count you as brother in Christ also; please answer the questions so we can put the matter to rest. If you should answer "no" then we'll continue to love you and pray for you.

Thank you guys, I appreciate that. I really don't mind if you anathematize me either, to be honest, but I do appreciate your carrying the olive branch as far as you can.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:43 am

Fortigurn wrote:I can say yes to all of those, but my understanding of Christ, God, redemption, and atonement will be different to yours. This may or may not make a difference to some of you (which is fair enough).

Good enough for me, and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned. That is the starting point for everything else; the begining of our new lives in the body of Christ and the foundation for our relationship with Him. We're not saved by our intelligence, reason, or comprehension of all aspects of God; we're saved by God's grace through our acceptance of Jesus. (Mark 10:15)

Now, as for everything else, that is a matter of our daily lives and our walk with Jesus. That will definately be influenced by our understanding of all the rest of it, and that is the very reason we discuss these things: To come closer to God by better knowing Him through the study of His Word. It is certainly important and worthy of discussing, but is peripheral to our justification by the blood of Jesus!

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:58 am

Fortigurn wrote: Interesting... I believe the reason why most might believe you are is because without the Divinity of Christ he could not have Forgiven Sins. That means that we are still living under Sin and Grace is not upon us!

I would have to comment that a person who does not believe in the Divinity of Christ cannot be considered a "brother in Christ" because he worships the wrong Christ. (I also know that this will not offend Fortgurn, as he probably expected it.) I'll deal with the Divinity of Christ in another thread, but I'm sort of busy today. The Revelation project took a lot out of me

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:24 pm

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote: Interesting... I believe the reason why most might believe you are is because without the Divinity of Christ he could not have Forgiven Sins. That means that we are still living under Sin and Grace is not upon us!
I would have to comment that a person who does not believe in the Divinity of Christ cannot be considered a "brother in Christ" because he worships the wrong Christ. (I also know that this will not offend Fortgurn, as he probably expected it.) I'll deal with the Divinity of Christ in another thread, but I'm sort of busy today. The Revelation project took a lot out of me

The words you quote there aren't actually mine, but you're entirely correct that I'm not in the least offended by your view regarding my position as a brother in Christ.

At least you're prepared to stand by your faith.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:42 am

Fortigurn wrote:
Well the problem is that this is begging the question.

First Jesus says
Mat 9:6 But1161 that2443 ye may know1492 that3754 the3588 Son5207 of man444 hath2192 power1849 on1909 earth1093 to forgive863 sins,266 (then5119 saith3004 he to the3588 sick of the palsy,)3885 Arise,1453 take up142 thy4675 bed,2825 and2532 go5217 unto1519 thine4675 house.3624

Mar 2:7 Why5101 doth this3778 man thus3779 speak2980 blasphemies?988 who5101 can1410 forgive863 sins266 but1508 God2316 only?1520

I would think that Wraps it up...

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:05 am

What's up with your posts bizzt? In terms of the numbers after ever word?

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:27 am

Felgar wrote:What's up with your posts bizzt? In terms of the numbers after ever word?

Those are Strongs Numbers Felgar...

Fortigurn · Post by **Fortigurn** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:05 am

bizzt wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Well the problem is that this is begging the question.
First Jesus says
Mat 9:6 But1161 that2443 ye may know1492 that3754 the3588 Son5207 of man444 hath2192 power1849 on1909 earth1093 to forgive863 sins,266 (then5119 saith3004 he to the3588 sick of the palsy,)3885 Arise,1453 take up142 thy4675 bed,2825 and2532 go5217 unto1519 thine4675 house.3624

Mar 2:7 Why5101 doth this3778 man thus3779 speak2980 blasphemies?988 who5101 can1410 forgive863 sins266 but1508 God2316 only?1520

I would think that Wraps it up...

It wraps it up nicely if you're one of the misguided Jews who didn't believe that such authority could be delegated.

Let's read the Bible instead:

John 20:
22 And after he said this, he [Jesus] breathed on them [the disciples/apostles] and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained.”

Note that lying to the apostles was considered 'lying to the Holy Spirit'.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:40 am

Fortigurn wrote:
bizzt wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:
Well the problem is that this is begging the question.
First Jesus says
Mat 9:6 But1161 that2443 ye may know1492 that3754 the3588 Son5207 of man444 hath2192 power1849 on1909 earth1093 to forgive863 sins,266 (then5119 saith3004 he to the3588 sick of the palsy,)3885 Arise,1453 take up142 thy4675 bed,2825 and2532 go5217 unto1519 thine4675 house.3624

Mar 2:7 Why5101 doth this3778 man thus3779 speak2980 blasphemies?988 who5101 can1410 forgive863 sins266 but1508 God2316 only?1520

I would think that Wraps it up...
It wraps it up nicely if you're one of the misguided Jews who didn't believe that such authority could be delegated.

Let's read the Bible instead:

John 20:
22 And after he said this, he [Jesus] breathed on them [the disciples/apostles] and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained.”
Note that lying to the apostles was considered 'lying to the Holy Spirit'.

Just so I get something Straight you believe in the Doctrine that say a Priest can Absolve you of your sins?

Are we not also a Brother in Christ? So was it also true that Lying to us would be considered lying to the Holy Spirit?