A window into my beleifs.

[Judah]

Is truth relative, meaning not absolute or independent, in other words comparative... or is truth objective, meaning absolute or independent?

If you believe in an objective reality, one that may be coloured but not created by your perceptions, then you are in a good position to acknowledge the objectivity of truth.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that truth is objective and absolute, that it is bound up in moral absolutes that exist as a product of the character of God. Such truth comes from God, whereas relative truth is of man's own making and will vary between cultures and subcultures.

Absolute truth is not for just one flock, but for all of God's creation.

This truth is packaged up in the life and death and resurrection of Christ.
He said Himself "I am the way and the truth and the life."
He also said... "No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
This claim is totally consistent with His statement in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Jesus shows us who God is. He wants a relationship with us, and to have us experience His love and true peace.

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

There is no fuller revelation of God, no more direct way to meet God, and no other better alternative. It is not arrogant to state the truth. It is simply being honest, no more and no less.

John 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."

However, these are my beliefs, and the beliefs generally of other Christians, whereas this thread is about your beliefs.

It appears to me that you do not accept absolute truth, the truth that is bound up in God's character. Or if you do, then you have stopped short of seeing Christ in the way He has showed Himself to the world.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

If you believe in an objective reality, one that may be coloured but not created by your perceptions, then you are in a good position to acknowledge the objectivity of truth.

And even by claiming relative truth, you are at the same time claimin objective truth (you're saying that the truth that truth is relative is objective).

[Judah]

Someone called Steve Turner wrote a poem called Creed, a tongue-in-cheek comment on post-modern society and relativism, a verse of which I quote here.
The whole poem can be read by clicking right here.

We believe that each man must find the truth
that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust. History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth that there is no absolute truth.

Yes of course. Reality will adapt, history will alter, the universe will readjust to suit... etc.
But it all depends on who is at the helm, God or myself.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Is truth relative, meaning not absolute or independent, in other words comparative... or is truth objective, meaning absolute or independent?

If you believe in an objective reality, one that may be coloured but not created by your perceptions, then you are in a good position to acknowledge the objectivity of truth.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that truth is objective and absolute, that it is bound up in moral absolutes that exist as a product of the character of God. Such truth comes from God, whereas relative truth is of man's own making and will vary between cultures and subcultures.

It appears to me that you do not accept absolute truth, the truth that is bound up in God's character. Or if you do, then you have stopped short of seeing Christ in the way He has showed Himself to the world.

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

[Believer]

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

Umm, not quite. If a person really knows the Torah, Bible, Quran, you will notice that the Quran is very self-contradictory, many have said it on here and displayed the truth behind it. It didn't come until the 500's AD I believe. While the Quran does possess such things from the Torah or Bible, it doesn't hold up to itself. So if you know your world religions really well, you will spot the inconsistencies with the Quran. And for the record, when a Muslim was asked on a panel of experts about the "peacefulness" of Islam, he declined knowing that his religion is not peaceful. Kill the Jews, kill the Christians! Need I say more? If you want the nitty gritty on the Quran, PM Christian2, he has the answers.

[Judah]

The truth is indeed divisive.

It separates itself from what is false, wrong, and sinful.

John 14: 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

You assume I don't see that as divisive? You have assumed wrongly.
Of course it is not unifying. What business has truth and falsehood to be unified?

Jesus also said in Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Hebrews 4: 12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Revelation 19: 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

BGoodForGoodSake, you may preach unity and inclusiveness and relativism, but that is not the basis of the Christian message.

The Christian message is about love.... the love of God, which is indeed for all of His creation, embodies His entire character which includes holiness, righteousness and has no tolerance at all for sin.
The Christian message is not about God overlooking sin and not minding that you have not accepted His solution for the moral guilt of mankind. In His great love for all of us, He gave His Son to be the propitiation for our sin.

Christ offended many by His message. He even evicted the marketeers from His Father's temple, upturning their tables and wares. I'm sure they did not like that very much. He offended to the point that He was put to death. His message will continue to offend those who choose to find it offensive.

Should beliefs not be challenged in case it should cause offense?

I have shared my beliefs on here. The words of mine that you quoted and suggest are offensive, is that because you personally find them offensive? They are the generally held beliefs of orthodox Christianity.
Did you not want others to share their beliefs on this thread?

No matter how the message is delivered, the message by it's very nature will still offend those who do not want to deal with it.
Should I change the message to suit the listener? Are you asking that I deny Christ and tell something different that is not His truth?
Should we espouse tolerance as the key virtue instead of God's love?
I don't believe so.

No, I would not be offended if a Muslim was to tell me that he preached the truth. I would expect him to say just that. That would be honest of him. I would also understand his position to be based on what he knows to that point, and that he has not received the revelation that is the Gospel message.

[Kurieuo]

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

For me, it certainly wouldn't offend. Sure it may perturb me, but then toleration involves putting up with something we may not like. And that includes other truth claims that compete with my own.

On the other hand, if we accepted that a Muslim wasn't wrong, and also that Buddhists and Hindus weren't wrong, then such trivilises and even disrepects such beliefs since we would really be taking anyones belief seriously at all. Thus I see greater value accepting my claim to know truth, while respecting that a Muslim claims to know truth, as a Buddhist claims to know truth; and yet, only one of us is right when it comes down to it. And as I believe I am right, the Muslim certainly believes they are right, and so on... I can certainly tolerate that while giving others the dignity that what they believe may be true. At least given these grounds of exclusive truths, I could dialogue with a Muslim on the grounds he believes his beliefs are true, as I do mine, and we can challenge and try to convert each other into understanding why one of our beliefs are truer than the others.

Kurieuo

[BGoodForGoodSake]

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

For me, it certainly wouldn't offend. Sure it may perturb me, but then toleration involves putting up with something we may not like. And that includes other truth claims that compete with my own.

On the other hand, if we accepted that a Muslim wasn't wrong, and also that Buddhists and Hindus weren't wrong, then such trivilises and even disrepects such beliefs since we would really be taking anyones belief seriously at all. Thus I see greater value accepting my claim to know truth, while respecting that a Muslim claims to know truth, as a Buddhist claims to know truth; and yet, only one of us is right when it comes down to it. And as I believe I am right, the Muslim certainly believes they are right, and so on... I can certainly tolerate that while giving others the dignity that what they believe may be true. At least given these grounds of exclusive truths, I could dialogue with a Muslim on the grounds he believes his beliefs are true, as I do mine, and we can challenge and try to convert each other into understanding why one of our beliefs are truer than the others.

Kurieuo

Bravo!
Thou art an enlightened and fully conscience man. Are you yet a man of the cloth? Or ordained in any manor.

[Judah]

Is truth relative, meaning not absolute or independent, in other words comparative... or is truth objective, meaning absolute or independent?

If you believe in an objective reality, one that may be coloured but not created by your perceptions, then you are in a good position to acknowledge the objectivity of truth.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that truth is objective and absolute, that it is bound up in moral absolutes that exist as a product of the character of God. Such truth comes from God, whereas relative truth is of man's own making and will vary between cultures and subcultures.

It appears to me that you do not accept absolute truth, the truth that is bound up in God's character. Or if you do, then you have stopped short of seeing Christ in the way He has showed Himself to the world.

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

BGoodForGoodSake, I believe that your comment for me was well-intentioned and offered to me as something that you consider important that I should know.
In fact, I agree with you that it is very important to respect the beliefs of others who do not share the same ones as my own. If you have assumed that I do not, then you clearly do not know me very well if indeed at all.

I would also like to say, just by the way, that my post in which I quoted a verse of a poem was actually in response to the post by KMart although it was obviously also in support of my belief in absolute versus relative truth.

Kurieuo has said here regarding this forum that: "It is a website to strengthen Christians in their faith as well as allow non-Christians who want to ask sincere questions about (not debate against) Christian beliefs."

That being so, my purpose in posting to this forum is to share my beliefs to benefit both myself and other Christians who, by their input to what I write, can help fine-tune my information or thinking on the content of these matters. However, as this is a thread which you started in order to share your beliefs, I did make a comment on my perception of your position.
If you read my post as being abrasive in any way, then you have read it wrongly as that was not the manner in which I was writing it.
Were my intentions to persuade Muslims or other non-believers I would certainly be taking an entirely different approach. I have not spoken on that subject at all. And as I have already said, I would not be offended by a Muslim telling me that what he believes is the truth. Of course it is the truth as he himself perceives it.
I think you have misunderstood me both here and once before on another thread as well.

BGoodForGoodSake, I appreciate all comments that further my knowledge of the content that I post, and I am frustrated by assumptions made of me that are based on a fly-by misunderstanding of the purpose of my posts.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

I was not offended, I was responding to the implication that everything not orthodox christian is relative truth of man's own making. I posited that this is devisive.

Seeing this is a site to encourage Christians, I think you were comming from the right perspective.

You are right in that I misterpreted you. Please accept my apologies.

[Judah]

Thank you for your apology, BGood.

Absolute truth is not the sole perogative of Christianity since this truth is embedded in the character of our righteous Creator God. Both Islam and Judaism share our common foundation, the God of Abraham, and therefore have some share of the truth. As I have discussed on other threads, Islam reformed its perception of God into their deity Allah, and so do not have the fullest revelation of the truth. And Judaism stopped short by not recognizing the truth of the claims of Christ. So although they will also acknowledge absolute truth, their full recognition of the truth is impeded by their disbelief where it does not go as far as the revelation we have in Christ.

Yes, this claim is divisive. You and I certainly agree about that.

The claims made by Christ are frequently seen as outrageous and obscene by non-Christians, and so they would be were they not absolutely true... which I will state is the case even when not recognized by non-believers. This truth is considered offensive by non-Christians, so I am a little surprised that you say you, as a non-Christian, are not offended by it... especially as I am being brutally frank about it here.

Jesus made these claims of Himself, and if they were wrong, then He was a great deceiver... or else harbouring a psychotic state of mind. If either of those things explain away His claims, then He cannot be regarded as just a good moral teacher either as He would have been a charlatan, a rogue well disguised.
The other option, that He was indeed telling the truth, that He is in fact who He claims to be ("I and the Father are one" and "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.") is the only one left to consider. There is a great deal of evidence to support that position despite the fact it seems outrageous, obscene and offensive to many non-Christians... and will certainly be devisive accordingly.

I find a lot of non-Christians will debate moral issues based on relative values, or situational ethics, and react quite strongly against some (but not all) truths which I believe are absolutes having originated from God.
BGood, I will admit that sometimes I don't always like having absolutes and would like to bend them this way or that to suit a situation. It would seem a lot easier sometimes... but on the other hand, it would also be disobedience of a kind that would lead me into even more trouble and so ultimately not a very wise move at all.

Anyway, thank you for your response. It is much appreciated.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Let us assume your right, what is God then? God is in us all around us and surrounds us. We are all a part of God. So to love God means to love yourself your neighbor and even the grass beneath your feet.

Be very careful here. Yes, love your god with all your heart, soul, and mind. But it's very important that your god is THE God. It's not valid to say that God is in me (though he is), but it's the "therefore I love myself with all my heart" where it gets sticky. That would be a perversion of the truth.

You cannot serve two masters, even if the second is disguised as God himself. For the words of the Lord are written (Duetoronomy 5:7-8 ):
"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

You have quoted from Duetoronomy, part of the reason why I am agnostic. By love of yourself I did not mean narcisism. I meant to take with joy and care of one's own life. Do not destroy it with contaminants and evil spirit.

[Jbuza]

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

What you say is true, but the truth must exist, and we all want to find it.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

What you say is true, but the truth must exist, and we all want to find it.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I choose to look in all the boxes.

[bizzt]

I only wish you see the manor in which you preach is divisive and not unifying. A Muslim would offend you if he were to tell you that he preaches he truth. Can you not see you do the same?

What you say is true, but the truth must exist, and we all want to find it.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I choose to look in all the boxes.

That is like having your Hand in the Cookie Jars. One day it will be Caught. Seriously look into every Religion out there. Which has the Most Verifiable Evidence supporting it. Judaism and Christianity? I would say that is the only 2 that I am aware of that has the most Verifiable Evidence.