Evidence for God from Science

Furthermore, don't you believe that God works through people? That, whether or not we are 'right', we nonetheless act upon our beliefs whatever these may be -even if this means doing nothing. That one way or another, each person has beliefs and their ideas of morality, and that we can either do our best to conciously create these or otherwise we create them unconciously. And then, in this way, perhaps we could avoid hell or certainly pass through darkness, doubt and hardship with greater ease.

Yes, Elisa, God works through people, but not to establish our own spritual reality. There is only one true God who is worthy of Praise honor and glory and His ways are the only right ways. I get this from the bible. Our own intellect, emotions and will are what makes us what we are, but they are unable to do anything except glorify ourselves. God, through the sacrifice of His only begotten son, offers cleansing, righteousness, santification, and salvation. We could never attain that in our fallen state or the final sacrifice of Christ's death on the cross would mean nothing.



Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Hi FFC,
I disagree. And in fact believe that the major part of Jesus' teaching is that we mere humans will come to realisations about who we are and what is therefore right and good. There are many passages in the Gospel where Jesus indicates this.

Besides which, a major reason why Jesus and the prophets were killed by priests was that the priests could not believe that a mere human being could be the Son of God -they could not bring themselves to listen or believe in another human being and their moral perfection. It is either that Jesus was a human and The Son of Man, or that Jesus was perfect and the Son of God. -but, why, I ask, cannot perfection exist within imperfection? Doesn't it all depend upon where one looks for perfection and good? -Isn't it a large question of how one's eyes look at things?? ...as in: "Your eyes are a light for the body". -And ultimately: why is it not genuinely possible or even for that matter a certainty, that a mere human being be perfect just as they are?

If we cannot see this as true, I ask why not? Perhaps it is how we look at people and what we judge as good that needs to be changed. ...otherwise, if no person is 'good' just as they are, then how does anybody or anybody's opinion hold any weight whatesoever? In other words: how is anything seen as 'real' or true-?

I disagree. And in fact believe that the major part of Jesus' teaching is that we mere humans will come to realisations about who we are and what is therefore right and good. There are many passages in the Gospel where Jesus indicates this.

I disagree. Why don't you quote some of those passages for us.

OK, here are some...

the passages about 'The Apocalypse' and 'the Coming of the Son of Man', in which Jesus says to not believe those who say, the Son is here of there, and that The Son of Man will come like a flash of lightning -that The Kingdom of Heaven is not something you can see, because it exists WITHIN YOU.

'What you permit in heaven will be permitted on earth. And what you prohibit in heaven will be prohibited on earth'

...the last is particularly useful. to me it states that: you have every right to choose whatever values you like. So, if the values that you choose, and even if they are similar to those of others, serve you, than that is all that is necessary. It is if you recognise that your values do not serve you, that by changing them you can change your situation.

'heaven and earth' -is like saying everything is relative. So, if what you allow others to be is opposite to what you are, then your values are perfect. But if you find that sufferring for you or others is caused and that you therefore struggle to tolerate others values and ways, then who you are as a result has already altered and new definitions for relative opposites can be created. This is conceptual. Through doing this, a person can learn how to be the mediator in their own disputes, or otherwise simply redefine themselves in a situation that has changed in which greater diversity between people has arisen.

So if your values suit who you are and you find that sufferring is not really an issue -then your values are just as likely to be as perfect as everybody elses. It is only if there is felt to be a conflict of interest that causes sufferring that a person considers changing their outlook.

The individual will discover this on their own. Jesus encourages their change in perception and the newly emerged concept of who they are regarding the new environment/situation. -That is why the Son of Man 'comes like a flash of lightning' and cannot be seen; just as the Kingdom of Heaven is only ever found within the individual.

'Independence of self and of mind is very simply that. It cannot be given to another but is conceived of by the person themself. Thinking and feelings can only be encouraged or discouraged by others. But a true evolution in thinking, perception and an evolution of how a person feels and regards life and others, is discovered and created in and by the person. This happens when the person decides that living according to their old rules/perception, no-longer gives them who they are. That they have outgrown this perception of 'good' and 'evil' as dictated by their values, the boundaries and limits they so far have.

One example I can use is an author who once lived as a drug addict and homeless person. He stated that his old life was necessary for the one he lives now. Whilst the perception of 'good' and 'evil'/the values for deciding happiness vs unhappiness eventually for him, led him to be homeless; he no-longer views such a state as 'bad' but sees another dimension to it. That it is part of a bigger picture of the whole person that he now is. This coincides with a change in perception -a bigger God -that reflects his own evolution. Eventually one that suffers within his soul finds the treasure in a bad experience -and in doing so, views life, failure, success, good and evil according to different dynamics. This is what happens when a person experiences (and in the case of exceptionally clever people perhaps) the downside to the upside -and they no-longer place improtance on this outer level of being and opt for a spiritual one. Or, their concept of success and happiness becomes less based on material -outer- success. It becomes about the process, the attempt, and not about the result.

Elisa,

I have limited time today and will be at class tonight and may not get a detailed response to you until the weekend.

Thanks for the response and I will give it the thoughtful answer it deserves.

Bart

Elisa:

The kingdom of God being "within us" . . . the proper translation and understanding is "in your (plural) midst," not inside you as an individual.

As for the binding/loosing, the proper translation is "whatever you bind will have been bound" . . . the apostles did not have the authority to bind in heaven and earth, but only to respond to what had already been bound or loosed in heaven by God. They were, after all, the individuals God used to lay the foundations of the Church. The NASB translates that passage well.

God bless

If we cannot see this as true, I ask why not? Perhaps it is how we look at people and what we judge as good that needs to be changed. ...otherwise, if no person is 'good' just as they are, then how does anybody or anybody's opinion hold any weight whatsoever? In other words: how is anything seen as 'real' or true-?

Hi Elisa, in Romans chapter 3 Paul makes it pretty clear that none of us are good or righteous or worthy of anything. This is the whole reason that Christ died on the cross for us to be punished in our stead. To make us righteous and good in His eyes. To make us acceptable to come into His presence. Your right, none of our opinions hold any weight whatsoever. Reality and truth come from God's perspective, and they are perfect. Even Jesus said there is none good but God. How could a sinful creature be anything more without the touch of God?

Jac3510...

Even if the translation of 'the kingdom of heaven is within you' is taken as 'you' being plural, this still equates to a translation that is 'you' as singular.

'You' as plural means a combination of one's point of view in and of itself with also the different point of view of another/others -being the combination of the two. Even when a combination of 'me' and 'you' (to give the plural 'you') is the meaning of the above phrase, it cannot but also mean 'you' in the singular. Since, the overall point is that one's original point of view alters to exist as one that introduces the element of 'you' and 'me' within it (you can observe this by noting the simple fact that human bias cannot be destroyed, much as the soul lasts forever).

As with this, a person sees 'within' their point of view how, what Jung called, the 3rd transcendental opinion exists as a make-up of their point of view with the other's. Just as Jung believed that the Self is another word for God, and this is a makeup of the subconcious and the concious of the individual. The subconcious is often represented by the devil when it is projected onto another of whose opinion we dislike. being that there is no true separation of the individual with their environment, except as held within the mind as a concept. Since, even when we respect the 'you', we do this because it is understood that there is no separation of 'you' and 'me' -that what happens on the 'outside' is always reflected on the 'inside'. -So, more correct, actually, is that 'the Kingdom of Heaven' exists within you, the individual. Since, when balance between the 'you' and 'me' exists on the outside, it is because it exists on the inside.

The 'binding' that you refer to, I take to mean my quoting 'What you permit on earth will be permitted in Heaven' ...so I'll render a response based on this assumption...

I see a contradiction in what you say here, since Jesus gives authority to people to choose what they would have in heaven based upon what rules they choose on earth (this is the 'you' and the 'me'). Even simply as a rule for what God will give/do for a person, it is the same as saying that one already has such authority since what you do to others is somehow always done unto you. ...So, whether or not you believe Jesus 'gives authority' through this message, the message is that we already have this authority by defaul simply because this is the law of the universe even before we understand it well enough to have concious authority in using it.


FFC: My opinion is that- if values that you follow serve you and you see no fault with them in that they do not do others harm either; then I do not find fault with them. It's only if they cause harm or sufferring that a person will want to change them; and they are capable of changing them when they themselves have figured-out the basis of what their new ones are already. Then, encouragement to these new values that they have conceptualised for themselves can be given. ...this is because, the values that a person has are a statement of who they are. And also because for some time people are changing in who they are and are still in the process of defining themselves.

In any case, stick to your own mind's view. If your values do not need to change because they reflect well who you are, then that's all a person needs to know; (other than obviously to be compassionate towards others, which s what everybody at heart is about being.) So, go on seeing things how you see them. Because, even if you disagree:- I see that one person's version of God is equal to another's. It is all about how a person defines themself.

I see that one person's version of God is equal to another's. It is all about how a person defines themself.

Do all roads lead to God?

Elisa

If all Gods are equal then why does God "I AM" make a distinction?

Kings 18:26-46

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,


You cannot reach God through Allah, Budda, Hindu Gods, etc... It is but one God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

All,

There are many "Gods" but this English word does not offer any proper understanding of the fact. In Hebrew the term is "elohim" and the closest Greek equivilent is "theoi."

There is only one true Elohim, He is the Theos of theoi, or El of elohim. His name is Eloah.

A careful study of the names of God in Hebrew will reveal much on the topic and thus a more accurate understanding of who the only true God is.

Everlasting life is in fact predicated on knowing the one true God and His son Jesus Christ whom He sent (John 17:3).

Concerning the question of true religion, the Bible provides many scriptures identifying who the people of the true religion are. Two of these texts are Revelation 12:17 and Rev. 14:12.

The problem is those who might ask this question do not want the correct answer.

The responses to this post will prove this fact.

R7-12

the passages about 'The Apocalypse' and 'the Coming of the Son of Man', in which Jesus says to not believe those who say, the Son is here of there, and that The Son of Man will come like a flash of lightning -that The Kingdom of Heaven is not something you can see, because it exists WITHIN YOU.

Elisa, with all due respect, you have a very disturbing pattern of paraphrasing verses, which you don't even provide the reference for, and then launching off them to say what you want to say regardless of what the verses say.

This board is for sincere seekers and questioners. I do not know your heart, but your answers and discourses are leading me to believe that you are here simply to bring forth your pantheistic and universalistic philosophy rather than interact and listen to what the Bible has to say.

In the "verse" above you completely ignore the fact that these confused conglomeration of verses that you cobble together that sound like some things the Bible says, are being twisted to say things that are completely unbiblical.

Jesus warns of false prophets and phonies who will come in the last days promoting a Gospel OTHER than that which he preached as the true and only Son of God.

If you wish to really discuss this matter and not this confusing mess of concepts that have no real resemblence to the Bible, why don't you quote them and reference them from the Bible and see what they really say?

'What you permit in heaven will be permitted on earth. And what you prohibit in heaven will be prohibited on earth'

...the last is particularly useful. to me it states that: you have every right to choose whatever values you like. So, if the values that you choose, and even if they are similar to those of others, serve you, than that is all that is necessary. It is if you recognise that your values do not serve you, that by changing them you can change your situation.

Nothing could be further from the message of the Bible.

The context of this passage is Jesus speaking to His disciples who are about to go out to begin spreading the message and teachings of Jesus Christ. What he tells them is they have authority on the basis of their relationship with Him and can use that authority in the context of opposition they meet. By your teaching there is no opposition or everything is to be embraced, so there would be no point in Christ doing this if He was teaching a message like yours.

Here's a passage that talks about what you are doing that you may find offensive, but which you need to listen to very carefully Elisa.

[Bible] 2 Peter 3:15-17

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

'heaven and earth' -is like saying everything is relative. So, if what you allow others to be is opposite to what you are, then your values are perfect. But if you find that sufferring for you or others is caused and that you therefore struggle to tolerate others values and ways, then who you are as a result has already altered and new definitions for relative opposites can be created. This is conceptual. Through doing this, a person can learn how to be the mediator in their own disputes, or otherwise simply redefine themselves in a situation that has changed in which greater diversity between people has arisen.

Heaven and earth means absolutely nothing like saying everything is relative. How anyone could read this from the Scriptures and draw that out is beyond me. Elisa, you approach the Scriptures and use them as a tool to try and make them say what you've already decided you want to believe. Heaven and earth speak of the Physical realm and the Spiritual realm.

I suspect it may not matter to you what any message in Scripture says in context. You will seek to grasp a small element and then add an "interpretation" of your own and then you will be off to the races.

As to people finding all truth within, here's what the Bible has to say about the heart of man.

Romans 3:10-18

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

So if your values suit who you are and you find that sufferring is not really an issue -then your values are just as likely to be as perfect as everybody elses. It is only if there is felt to be a conflict of interest that causes sufferring that a person considers changing their outlook.

No Elisa. Here's what God has to say about Man's heart apart from Him.

Jer17:9-10

9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

10 "I the LORD search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

The individual will discover this on their own. Jesus encourages their change in perception and the newly emerged concept of who they are regarding the new environment/situation. -That is why the Son of Man 'comes like a flash of lightning' and cannot be seen; just as the Kingdom of Heaven is only ever found within the individual.

I suggest you read Matt 13 to see what the Bible truly say about the Kingdom of God. It is not found within, until the God of Heaven is placed within by the work of the Holy Spirit. There is only one way provided to that condition, and it is not within us. It is through Jesus Christ and Him alone. John 14:6 We cannot find this on our own. God sent Christ to teach us and show us the way. If we could do it on our own there would have been no need.

The rest of what you have to say is more of the same.

I appeal to you Elisa to take a look at what you are doing.

Abstract thought and concepts are wonderful things and there is comfort and excitement in weaving words and thoughts together. The problem is, if you seek to live within those words and concepts and interpret all of reality through them and them alone, then you are caught captive to imaginations and concepts that may not pass the test of reality.

That is why more than just telling us things through the Bible, God sent Jesus Christ in the flesh to not only tell us the truth but to embody it and demonstrate the love God has for us and the path to Him through the sacrificial death He died and then His resurrection through which we all, who choose to accept that gift, have eternal life.

Consider Elisa, if this does not offer peace and certainty beyond that offered in the all-encompassing relativism you are seeking to promote.

I encourage you to read the Discussion Guidelines above for this board and what they say in terms of those seeking verses those simply here to argue of promote their own viewpoint.

Canuckster...

You write that I interpret the Bible how I want to.
And that your interpretation therefore is correct, whilst mine is incorrect...
Apart from the fact that you don't even give an interpretation upon which to make a comparison -how do you even know that it is mine that is wrong whilst your's is right. Or that it isn't you that is the 'false prophet'.

If Jesus spoke in parables, it was because he already knew that people perceive things how they want to. This is simple human nature. Perception making reality. But if you cannot perceive of this truth, there is no way by which another could 'make' you.

You offer slander, but you offer no logical proof for basing your accusations. Which leads me to ask the quintessential question: Why don't you offer logical proof for why my version of the truth is wrong, whilst your is right-?

But perhaps before you fly off the handle and pronounce my opinion invalid, you should consider the fact that I have never even stated that you needed to alter YOUR interpretation of the bible, but that my interpretation/beliefs are that all opinions should be regarded as equal with respect to one another. -that eventhough you obviously disagree with this concept, that nonetheless, it requires that you needn't change your view to begin with.

The only time values should alter is if and when conflict occurs, by which the overall outlook should be changed so that different opinions can be seen in a new light, so that the underlying unity of different views can be seen and respected so that different people are respected. ...and even logic and values aside, the simple idea that 'agree to disagree' and showing basic compassion, others will suffice.

I never asked you to change your values. I only spoke of how this is possible if and when a person sees that sticking to their outlook essentially deprives them of it in the first place. That in choosing a view that allows and even creates opposition with others, is only ever going to be self-defeating. And that rather than suffer this, a person has the opportunity to alter their view of things to see the world, themselves and others, from a new perspective that does justice to difference of opinion. Only by respecting the difference of others does one have their difference respected.

I am not stating that people should abolish their values, but I am stating that if they have themselves begun to see a new dimension to an aspect of life, that such a perspective is to be encouraged, since it forms the basis of the person's sense of identity according to how they have changed and been shaped. This only happens when a person sees that their feelings and opinion, like the soul, are everlasting (therefore, far from being a 'dangerous theory', for such people it is anything but) and it will be that they understand this because they see a new perspective, that
can only ever by its nature be based on seeing that one side exists always with respect to the other and thus relative to the other -or that everything is One. So there is no danger in preaching a message that promotes respect for difference and the idea that through an understanding of how we are linked and dependent upon others' differences, that we are therefore to try to see the underlying unity that exists in this.

In other words, continue to have your values. You are not required to agree with me or mine. I never said that you were. Nor am I interested in arguing with you as to whose version of the bible is correct. Since anyone with any version believes their's to be the right one. -this 'argument' is as old and as pointless as an argument can get. ...And all along Christians believe in a God that is ALL things, and that is love and unity, as opposed to division.

FFC: that question is the same as 'are all people at heart, good' and 'do all people want to be good'. The answer is of course, a yes.
Although, spirituality is about trying to figure out how to achieve this more quickly with fewer steps.

I had written more, but do not have the time to write it now.

Elisa wrote:Canuckster...

You write that I interpret the Bible how I want to.
And that your interpretation therefore is correct, whilst mine is incorrect...
Apart from the fact that you don't even give an interpretation upon which to make a comparison -how do you even know that it is mine that is wrong whilst your's is right. Or that it isn't you that is the 'false prophet'.

If Jesus spoke in parables, it was because he already knew that people perceive things how they want to. This is simple human nature. Perception making reality. But if you cannot perceive of this truth, there is no way by which another could 'make' you.

You offer slander, but you offer no logical proof for basing your accusations. Which leads me to ask the quintessential question: Why don't you offer logical proof for why my version of the truth is wrong, whilst your is right-?

But perhaps before you fly off the handle and pronounce my opinion invalid, you should consider the fact that I have never even stated that you needed to alter YOUR interpretation of the bible, but that my interpretation/beliefs are that all opinions should be regarded as equal with respect to one another. -that eventhough you obviously disagree with this concept, that nonetheless, it requires that you needn't change your view to begin with.

The only time values should alter is if and when conflict occurs, by which the overall outlook should be changed so that different opinions can be seen in a new light, so that the underlying unity of different views can be seen and respected so that different people are respected. ...and even logic and values aside, the simple idea that 'agree to disagree' and showing basic compassion, others will suffice.

I never asked you to change your values. I only spoke of how this is possible if and when a person sees that sticking to their outlook essentially deprives them of it in the first place. That in choosing a view that allows and even creates opposition with others, is only ever going to be self-defeating. And that rather than suffer this, a person has the opportunity to alter their view of things to see the world, themselves and others, from a new perspective that does justice to difference of opinion. Only by respecting the difference of others does one have their difference respected.

I am not stating that people should abolish their values, but I am stating that if they have themselves begun to see a new dimension to an aspect of life, that such a perspective is to be encouraged, since it forms the basis of the person's sense of identity according to how they have changed and been shaped. This only happens when a person sees that their feelings and opinion, like the soul, are everlasting (therefore, far from being a 'dangerous theory', for such people it is anything but) and it will be that they understand this because they see a new perspective, that
can only ever by its nature be based on seeing that one side exists always with respect to the other and thus relative to the other -or that everything is One. So there is no danger in preaching a message that promotes respect for difference and the idea that through an understanding of how we are linked and dependent upon others' differences, that we are therefore to try to see the underlying unity that exists in this.

In other words, continue to have your values. You are not required to agree with me or mine. I never said that you were. Nor am I interested in arguing with you as to whose version of the bible is correct. Since anyone with any version believes their's to be the right one. -this 'argument' is as old and as pointless as an argument can get. ...And all along Christians believe in a God that is ALL things, and that is love and unity, as opposed to division.

Elisa,

You have yet to offer any Biblical basis for your opinion and continue to promote the idea that any opinion is valid simply because someone has it.

Consider this your final warning. Again, I suggest you read the Discussion Guidlines and Purpose of this Board and comply with the standards of this board.

You have been offered several Scriptures which stand by themselves in direct opposition to your teaching and philosophy and ignored them in favor of simply repeating your opinions.

Let's start here again, and this time, I ask you to interact and discuss an issue instead of simply launching into another non-sequitor speech.

Jesus, recorded in the Bible says,

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me."

Jesus and the Bible seem to have a very different "opinion" as to the idea that all paths to God are equally valid.

Why should we give any, let alone equal, validity to your words here than to those of Christ's?

If you need more please refer to this link to our main board which explains why your idea that tolerance is above all, and why Christianity is exclusive in its claims.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... rance.html

What you are presenting here is not Christian by any stretch of the imagination.

Bart