Evidence for God from Science

Yes, but what is the point? He clearly stated he desires to not become religious unless 1 or 2 of the following are required:

1.) Goes To Heaven

2.) Goes To Hell

3.) Gets A Visit From Jesus In This Life

I am not the one to judge but from scripture in the Bible, it says through faith in Christ you are saved, does Blob have faith in Christ? The other alternative is to appreciate nature for what it is and the person will know God through that, that seems like the easy way out, however, you have no Jesus to defend you on judgment day. The only way he himself can know God is through experiencing the changing effect of accepting Christ into his life, only then he will know what happens to Christians, and even then, Christians can come in many varieties. It is based upon faith in the unseen (the supernatural), not science. Science is ever changing, the Bible isn't. What do you pick? The Bible or ever evolving science? Having faith as well doesn't mean you will never have doubts, you will have doubts, it is natural, there are instances of people doubting in the Bible.

My problem that I am trying to understand though is why must he "research" us Christians through a forum as if it sounds like compiling a book, when he has his physical mother to see, and the fruitful things the Lord has done in her life? We know that being on a forum is different than in real person. Blob is here to converse, but as he has stated he will remain an atheist until 1 or 2 of the above 3 things listed will happen, that is being ignorant to it's fullest. I just get the feeling like Blob is here to preach to us, but for what? It would be nice if he was OPEN to changing, and ask important non-science questions about Christianity so he can really know, but it doesn't appear that way. Bible Gateway is a good place to read or listen to the Bible free online, the NIV is close to the KJV, but the NLT is the easiest one to understand.

Thinker wrote:He clearly stated he desires to not become religious unless 1 or 2 of the following are required:

1.) Goes To Heaven

2.) Goes To Hell

3.) Gets A Visit From Jesus In This Life

I heard about the conversion of Saul in acts 9 today. Seems like my prerequisite that Jesus (should he exist) make himself explicitly known to me in a manner he did to my mother has a precedent in the bible.


[3] As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.

[4] He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?

[5] "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

[6] "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

[7] The men travelling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

[8] Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus.

[9] For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.


Makes my requirement for what would make me believe quite valid and reasonable afterall.

Blob, can you imagine the following?

Suppose for a moment that the Christian triune God actually does exist in all His awesomeness, powerful might and majesty, and that I am just one of his billions of little created beings.

If that was so, do you think it could be just a little bit arrogant of me to expect Him to meet my specific demands for proof enough to believe, that is, more proof than all but a few have been given?

If I was to say that I will only believe if I have the same kind of vivid experience as the one Saul reported having, then am I not being rather audacious? Remember, I'm just one of billions who might hardly be said to matter at all in the big scheme of things.

But I know that is my own perspective, not yours.
My own perspective also has me thinking that we humans are mostly very self centred - what I need, what I think, what I feel, what I must have, what must be done for me, etc, etc. We think our way rather than God's way (presuming He exists).
I am certainly that way, and just to prove it...
When I think of God, I feel very small and insignificant, and it amazes me that I have had experiences that I attribute to Him and His knowledge of me.
I just thought I'd share that for what it is worth.

Judah wrote:Suppose for a moment that the Christian triune God actually does exist in all His awesomeness, powerful might and majesty, and that I am just one of his billions of little created beings.

Okay.

If that was so, do you think it could be just a little bit arrogant of me to expect Him to meet my specific demands for proof enough to believe, that is, more proof than all but a few have been given?

I have no problem convincing people I exist, so why should your god? Also, he could simply have created me less stubborn in the first place - as creator/knower of the stage, the actors and the script it is all down to him anyway.

In addition the majority of the world's Christians did not convert but were "born and bred" within Christian families. It seems fair enough that someone not raised in a Christian family such as myself should have a little extra help.

If I was to say that I will only believe if I have the same kind of vivid experience as the one Saul reported having, then am I not being rather audacious?

I said only personal intervention by Jesus would do it before I found out about Saul, which was just today. Stories abound of this happening (to my mother and others) as Thinker pointed out.

Remember, I'm just one of billions who might hardly be said to matter at all in the big scheme of things.

I don't see what it matters whether there is one or a trillion-zillion-gillion-bazillion things. All is equally effortless for a unlimited deity.

(I understand the Christian god is said to be unlimited but let me know if that is not what you personally believe.)

I just thought I'd share that for what it is worth.

Thank you for taking the time to do so - it is appreciated.

Blob wrote:I have no problem convincing people I exist, so why should your god? Also, he could simply have created me less stubborn in the first place - as creator/knower of the stage, the actors and the script it is all down to him anyway.

I'm inclined to think God's existence is obvious, and many throughout history and today it seems have quite "naturally" believed in God's existence (unlike fairys or what-have-you which is more abstract). Such a view is in agreement with Paul who wrote (Romans 1:19-23):

• "... what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
  21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

Perhaps what you would like is God to "push" Himself onto people, allow them no place to hide from Him? Indeed Christians believe everyone will admit to God's sovereignty in the end on judgement day, and if God is patient then in the scheme of everything He is in no rush. For now in this life we live, I see that God wants to know (not simply by foreknowledge, but by setting in actual reality) those who will seek Him, and those who don't care and even willingly pursue only what they desire. He affords us all such an opportunity without imposing His existence onto us. And indeed even after judgement, He doesn't force His existence on us by giving us our desire in this life to be cast away from His presence.

Blob wrote:In addition the majority of the world's Christians did not convert but were "born and bred" within Christian families. It seems fair enough that someone not raised in a Christian family such as myself should have a little extra help.

Actually I beg to differ. I see many Atheists that were brought up by "Christian" parents. And even now in my theology classes there is an person who was brought up with Atheist parents seeking a deeper understanding of Christian theology. So it certainly isn't the case that the beliefs one is brought up with is what one sticks to. If anything, I believe a better case can be made for a rebellion against the beliefs of one's parents. But I'm inclined not to make such broad assumptions, and to see this should be judged from case to case. It really has no impact upon the truth and validity of a particular belief itself anyway.

Kurieuo

Blob wrote: I don't see what it matters whether there is one or a trillion-zillion-gillion-bazillion things. All is equally effortless for a unlimited deity.

(I understand the Christian god is said to be unlimited but let me know if that is not what you personally believe.)

You're right, it doesn't really make any difference whether there is one or a trillion-zillion-gillion-bazillion things. It is not actually the number that matters in terms of quantity, but more in terms of status and relationship.
My little being is so insignificant compared with everything else in creation. On the other hand, this awesome and powerful magnificent Creator God is right at the other end of the continuum - right off scale, in fact.

So here is this tiny insignificant creature asking a special favour - "Please God, if you exist, prove to me without a doubt that you do. Leap out of the bushes right in my face and while doing so, make sure I cannot find any other excuse to say it really isn't you."
Oh boy, wouldn't I get a shock if he did!

But if Saul got that, then I might say why shouldn't I, and everyone else too for that matter? It would sure make this a pretty exciting and totally unnerving place to live!

I think I actually prefer it the way it is, as Kurieuo (why can I never remember how to spell that without looking it up!) suggests that the evidence is kind of already there.

Anyway, that was just the kinds of thought I was having when reading some of your posts here.

Yes, the God I'm talking about would be quite unlimited... er, except by His own character, that is. For instance, I wouldn't expect a moral God to do immoral things, and therefore it is true to say that he wont or can't do absolutely everything.

BTW, I like the way you are more relaxed and quite respectful when talking to folks on here, more so than many I have come across. I do appreciate that about you.

Oh, I got created pretty stubborn too. It took quite a few pretty serious life events to pull me up and spin me around enough to start seeing things with a different perspective... a bit like with your mother but not quite so dramatic.

Blob wrote:

Thinker wrote:He clearly stated he desires to not become religious unless 1 or 2 of the following are required:

1.) Goes To Heaven

2.) Goes To Hell

3.) Gets A Visit From Jesus In This Life

I heard about the conversion of Saul in acts 9 today. Seems like my prerequisite that Jesus (should he exist) make himself explicitly known to me in a manner he did to my mother has a precedent in the bible.


[3] As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.

[4] He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?

[5] "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

[6] "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

[7] The men travelling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

[8] Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus.

[9] For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.


Makes my requirement for what would make me believe quite valid and reasonable afterall.

So only if you were to SEE and HEAR Jesus would you believe? Even if God were to do this-you could always make up some stupid excuse-ie dillusional, hallucinations, big prank. There was a discussion panel of 8 or so people on PBS talking about parts of the book Question of God-and this one agnostic brought up this interesting analogy-if you were to see someone lift up a building, twirl it around, and then set it back down, even though there is strong evidence, strong first hand evidence, that such an event truly took place-you could STILL make up some explanation in order not to believe such a thing.

The Jews did it. And the Jews saw the empty tomb, they saw Jesus do miracles, they acknowledged these things came to pass-but they made up empty excuses.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses guys. Beliefs are an emotive issue and both theists and atheists are often guilty of projecting stereotypes on each other rather than actually listening to each other. I certainly can't complain of anyone doing the former to me in this thread and I do hope that's mutual.


Kurieuo * yes, Judah, his screename is a pain to spell! *

I'm inclined to think God's existence is obvious, and many throughout history and today it seems have quite "naturally" believed in God's existence

Yet it is "obvious" the earth is flat and that the sun is a small disk that moves across the sky.

Regarding theistic beliefs it seems there has been a general historical trend to move from there "obviously" being many humanesque or animalesque gods, to there "obviously" being one abstract god. The next natural step would seem to be that it is "obvious" there are zero gods.

Perhaps what you would like is God to "push" Himself onto people, allow them no place to hide from Him?

Absolutely. I wish not the freedom to be deluded about reality, but the freedom to accept your god's love. I would readily put my faith in his love but not in his existence.

t really has no impact upon the truth and validity of a particular belief itself anyway.

I agree of course. The issue arose because some Christians offer "unrequested revelation" on the part of people like my mother as proof Jesus is real. I am simply arguing this is no proof at all because it only happens to people who are already culturally aware of who the Christ is (to the best of my knowledge).


Judah

My little being is so insignificant compared with everything else in creation.

Do you subsribe to the fine-tuning argument? If so surely you must consider this entire vast universe is a mere backdrop to enable the existance of earth and of us. We may be small in literal size but fine-tuning says everything is contrived just so we may be here (that's my understanding of it, anyway.)

So here is this tiny insignificant creature asking a special favour - "Please God, if you exist, prove to me without a doubt that you do. Leap out of the bushes right in my face and while doing so, make sure I cannot find any other excuse to say it really isn't you."
Oh boy, wouldn't I get a shock if he did!

Me too! Indeed my mother was as surprised as the rest of us at her new found beliefs.

But what a welcome shock it would be. To be in reach of eternal life, to never be alone when I am alone, to know this life is just the beggining of a much richer and never-ending existence in the presence of infinite love. My ego might take a bashing, yes, but who cares? Besides, my lifestyle is not entirely "unchristian" - I am loyal to my girlfriend; I don't do drugs and drink rarely; many people in my life would be delighted for me to become a Christian; I reside in a town where many friends have moved away (hence my online life) so would be able to make new friends through my shared faith.

Jesus - please drop a piano on my head that I may know you. Seriously. I don't want to die forever - what a terrifying thought. Atheism comes with few fringe benefits.


KMart

So only if you were to SEE and HEAR Jesus would you believe?

No, that's not it. Only if I know Jesus in a much more profound manner than my 'mere' physical senses.

Even if God were to do this-you could always make up some stupid excuse-ie dillusional, hallucinations, big prank.

Yes that is true. For example I obviously do not believe my mother really met Jesus. But she does believe it and if it happened to me there is at least a healthy possibility that I would too.

Blob wrote: Jesus - please drop a piano on my head that I may know you. Seriously. I don't want to die forever - what a terrifying thought. Atheism comes with few fringe benefits.

Oh Blob, NO !!!!!

Just be so careful what you wish for!
One day you could be walking on the footpath past a multi-story building where some people are moving out of an upstairs apartment. They have hired a crane to take the piano out through a ranch slider door to a narrow balcony and just as you go by a cable breaks and down comes the piano.
Then what will you say (besides "ouch!" ... er, if there was anything unsquashed left of you to say something) ???

Hmm, I'd rather go for jumping out of bushes in your face, I think. Just warn me when, though... so I don't die of fright!

Anyway, what you've been saying reminds me of something I read in Lee Strobel's book The Case for Faith. Lee was interviewing Charles Templeton, a chap who had been a Christian and a friend of Billy Graham, and who had lost his faith to become agnostic instead. Templeton was telling his story and came to a point where the discussion was about Jesus. He obviously thought extremely highly of Jesus and had continued to emulate him. Here is the bit I want to quote...

Abruptly, Templeton cut short his thoughts. There was a brief pause, almost as if he was uncertain whether he should continue.
"Uh... but... no," he said slowly, "he's the most...." He stopped, then started again. "In my view," he declared, "he is the most important human being who has ever existed."
That's when Templeton uttered the words I never expected to hear from him. "And if I may put it this way," he said as his voice began to crack, "I... miss... him!"
With that, tears flooded his eyes. He turned his head and looked downward, raising his left hand to shield his face from me. His shoulders bobbed as he wept. (p.22, Zondervan, 2000)

Oh boy, I thought that was so heartbreakingly sad. Someone so deeply missing Jesus but unable to believe anymore. Someone really aching for Him, for His love, for the relationship he once had with Him.

I think that would cut me up too. The kind of love in this relationship with Him is something to experience and never ever want to let go. If you know it, then it honestly is something to die for.

Do I believe in the fine-tuning argument? Oh golly, I don't know. I might do. I do see that everything created has worked out such that we are here (well, we are obviously here) and that it is all pretty amazing that such insignificant little beings could possibly matter to the amazingly awesome Creator God that I believe in. I believe we do matter to Him. I am just staggered that we do. But I probably don't have all my ducks in a row when it comes to the big arguments this way and that. Having them more or less in a row has been enough for me. I do accept that there is no absolute proof one way or the other for the existence (or non-existence) of God... but I think there is enough evidence to support a belief in Him if you find everything else seems to best fit. In my "everything else" I would include my experiences of Him that I certainly find pretty real to me... like that wonderful love relationship Templeton is missing so badly.

Just be so careful what you wish for!
One day you could be walking on the footpath past a multi-story building where some people are moving out of an upstairs apartment. They have hired a crane to take the piano out through a ranch slider door to a narrow balcony and just as you go by a cable breaks and down comes the piano.

I don't believe in hell and have no fear of it. But in this thread I have agreed to assume Christianity is true. Given the choice of an accident resulting in me becoming a Christian and eternal suffering of course I would take the following. But yes, having Jesus jump out of a bush would be preferable to having an accident in order to know him.

For that matter being in a Christian in a Christian universe would be preferable to being an atheist in a godless universe - but being an atheist in a godless universe would be preferable to being a Christian in a godless universe.

Blob wrote: For that matter being in a Christian in a Christian universe would be preferable to being an atheist in a godless universe - but being an atheist in a godless universe would be preferable to being a Christian in a godless universe.

I think you might have missed out a possible option.

So far you've got...
1. Christian in Christian universe (which is better than...)
2. Atheist in a godless universe (which is better than...)
3. Christian in a godless universe

What about...
4. Atheist in a Christian universe?

Just imagine... if the Christians had got it right afterall, oh boy, you'd be stuck up a gum tree with a pack of dingoes baying for your hide!

No, I guess you would be back to #2 afterall since hell is supposed to be eternal separation from God.

Blob, do you like being an aetheist?
I know I didn't think about it too much when I was agnostic, but it seems you are giving all this much more thought than I did for quite a while.
Do you ever get little niggles or twinges that there might be something to all this Christianity thing afterall? I just wondered...

Judah wrote:4. Atheist in a Christian universe?

I hadn't forgotten it - in fact that I am an atheist in a Christian universe is my working assumption for this thread so I was just mentioning the other three.

Of course, the possibilities are endless...
A Christian in an Islamic universe and so on ad infinitum.

Blob, do you like being an aetheist?

Yes I do. It's kind of my hobby. What's more I feel privileged to live in an age where one can be an atheist without persecution or blame for unfortunate events. Many brave individuals (not necessarily atheists themselves) have gone before me to buy that privilege.

It's true I think about it a lot. The "big questions" fascinate me for some reason, and in a world full of theists I cannot but help be intrigued by theology and religion.

Do you ever get little niggles or twinges that there might be something to all this Christianity thing afterall? I just wondered...

Sorry to disappoint but I can honestly say I do not - although I acknowledge the lack of 'twinges' doesn't rule out the fact that I could be gravely mistaken.

However if it were indeed true and I could have eternal life that would be fantastic.

Blob wrote:I don't believe in hell and have no fear of it.

1.) No belief in hell

2.) You don't fear hell

So on one hand you don't believe in hell, but then again you don't fear hell as if that sounds that you believe there would be a hell but you wouldn't fear it.

Interesting...

Blob wrote:For example I obviously do not believe my mother really met Jesus.

But how do you know for a fact that she didn't really meet Him if you weren't the experiencer? Many people have, in dreams, in thoughts, in physical reality. If this weren't so, then Jesus was the greatest deceiver in the world, and I really can't think of any person who has outdone Him.

Blob wrote:But what a welcome shock it would be. To be in reach of eternal life, to never be alone when I am alone, to know this life is just the beggining of a much richer and never-ending existence in the presence of infinite love. My ego might take a bashing, yes, but who cares? Besides, my lifestyle is not entirely "unchristian" - I am loyal to my girlfriend; I don't do drugs and drink rarely; many people in my life would be delighted for me to become a Christian; I reside in a town where many friends have moved away (hence my online life) so would be able to make new friends through my shared faith.

However if it were indeed true and I could have eternal life that would be fantastic.

* T.V. Announcer * "Act now, and you too can have eternal life for the price of NOTHING! What's the catch you say? Well, all you have to do is receive Jesus Christ as your personal savior, and you WILL be saved! This is an unlimited time offer! If you aren't happy, you may simply notify your savior! If you would like to receive Jesus Christ as your personal savior, please call 1-800-SAVE-ME, that is 1-800-SAVE ME"

See, all you have to do Blob is accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. Now, I am not saying you HAVE to, as that is your option, BUT, what if what we have been saying is right all along and Christianity is true? Seriously, what harm is it to honestly ask Jesus Christ into your life? There is no harm, that is the beauty of it. Life will be harmful in this life, but life after life will be harmless. I feel sorry for you Blob, I really do, and I don't believe science is what one should lay their foundation on. We are concerned and want you to have this free gift Blob, but we can't do it for you. Going to church, reading the Bible, doing good deeds, plus more don't earn eternal salvation, the salvation is from accepting Christ and putting faith in Him. I wish you the best...

Thinker wrote:So on one hand you don't believe in hell, but then again you don't fear hell as if that sounds that you believe there would be a hell but you wouldn't fear it.

I don't believe in the Big Bad Wolf and have no fear of him.

But how do you know for a fact that she didn't really meet Him if you weren't the experiencer?

I don't.

what if what we have been saying is right all along and Christianity is true?

Then I burn forever, or, accept Christ as my personal saviour and join you in heaven.

But what if the muslims are right?

Seriously, what harm is it to honestly ask Jesus Christ into your life?

What if Christianity is not true?

It is possible to want something so much that you contrive it to be the truth. If not, how do you explain muslim converts who are totally certain in their own beliefs?

I wish you the best...

Likewise.

Thinker wrote:

Blob wrote:I don't believe in hell and have no fear of it.

1.) No belief in hell

2.) You don't fear hell

So on one hand you don't believe in hell, but then again you don't fear hell as if that sounds that you believe there would be a hell but you wouldn't fear it.

Interesting...

Brian you know better than this, you are obviously mistating him and not focusing on what he is trying to say. There are many cases where you have not phrased you're statements perfectly as well?
Mathew 7:3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?