Evidence for God from Science

ryo dokomi wrote:okay puritan, what is the difference between the old testament jews, and this new judism that you speak of. i dont know what you are talking about.

Old Testament Judaism was the true Biblical religion of that time. The way they worshipped foreshadowed the coming Messiah (temple, sacrifice, etc.) Abraham and Moses were saved by the same grace that saves modern day saints.

New Testament Judaism is a different religion altogether. There is no longer a temple or animal sacrifice (and even if there was, these things cannot atone for sin, but are "weak and beggarly elements").

OT Judaism worshipped Christ (John 5:46). NT Judaism rejects Christ, and therefore is a false, demonic cult.

okay, i knew most of that. thanks. however there is one thing that i dont get what you mean. you see, Abraham and Moses couldnt have worshiped Jesus, because Jesus wasnt on earth yet, and they couldnt have been saved by him in there time because they still had to do the sacrifices. God created the system of sacrifice to test the peoples hearts, He knew that the sacrifice of animals wouldnt cover the sin of the world, that is why he sent His son. however the sacrifice system and all the rituals that were involved were to show the Picture of Christ. and to test the hearts of the men that did them...you see Abraham and Moses died without the blood of Jesus, but they still found favor from the LORD, but they couldnt go to Heaven yet without Christ, so they went to a waiting place called Abraham's Bosom. so in summary, Abraham and Moses werent saved by Christ, because He didnt do His thing on the Cross yet.

ryo dokomi wrote:okay, i knew most of that. thanks. however there is one thing that i dont get what you mean. you see, Abraham and Moses couldnt have worshiped Jesus, because Jesus wasnt on earth yet, and they couldnt have been saved by him in there time because they still had to do the sacrifices. God created the system of sacrifice to test the peoples hearts, He knew that the sacrifice of animals wouldnt cover the sin of the world, that is why he sent His son. however the sacrifice system and all the rituals that were involved were to show the Picture of Christ. and to test the hearts of the men that did them...you see Abraham and Moses died without the blood of Jesus, but they still found favor from the LORD, but they couldnt go to Heaven yet without Christ, so they went to a waiting place called Abraham's Bosom. so in summary, Abraham and Moses werent saved by Christ, because He didnt do His thing on the Cross yet.

Jesus isn't physically "on earth" now, yet we worship Him.

The rest of you post is correct. The entire book of Hebrews makes it clear that Old Covenant Judaism is over. Today's Judaism is on par with Islam, Mormonism, etc. It is a false religion.

okay, i'll have to read Hebrews to find that, thanks.

I appreciate your post Puritan Lad. You are well versed in defending your position and on point at all times.

Dan

The Jews no more worship the devil than an unsaved christian that was raised in a christian home worships the devil. Jesus never said they worshipped the devil, He said they were of the devil.

Jesus even called Peter "Satan" right after he praised him for giving the right answer about who He is. I don't think Peter was worshipping the devil at that point, but he was certainly speaking and acting with the same mindset. It was the same for that group of Jews who were rejecting Jesus with their words and hearts....and only after they instigated Him over and over did He reprimand them and tell they they were of the devil.

Hello,
If a retarded person does not accept Yeshua as their Savior, will that person go to Hell?
NO. They were unable to understand the gospel message.
God is a just God. To condemn a person for something he has no ability to control, is not justice.
What we gentiles have done to the Jewish Messiah may have made it impossible for many Jews to recognize Him.
We have given Him a Greek Name and worship Him on a day designed to commemorate the god of the sun.
Most "Chrestinos" consider Martin Luther as a major theologian even though he was horribly anti-semitic.
His titles as King of the Jews, Messiah, Son of David, are rarely heard from our lips.
Instead of blessing the Jews as we were commanded, we have cursed them.
Instead of honoring them for giving and preserving the Word of God, we have burned their books.
They have learned to expect death from us, not eternal life.
We have heaped on their heads all the curses and acknowledge few of the blessings.
We count those blessings as our own even going so far as to say that we are the new Israel of God.
With all those things we have done to them, it is a wonder any have come to believe in their Messiah, Yeshua.
But they have. Since the 60's, God has done an awesome work and brought the Messianic movement into being despite us.
There are about a hundred Messianic synogogues now in Israel and thousands around the world. Most of the believing Jews have experienced miraculous awakenings.
Romams 11:11 says we gentiles' job was to bring our Jewish brothers to the knowledge of their Messiah. We failed. But God, Himself, took our place, to our shame.
So, how responsible are our Jewish brothers if they have not recognized their Messiah?
In the MC Law, YHVH said that if a person is falsely accused intentionally by another, that accuser is given the punishment the falsely accused person would have received.
Ruth

Ruth,
I'm trying to grasp what you are saying. Do you think the persecution that the Jews have gone through is an excuse for them to deny Jesus as their Messiah? If so then we can put God on the list because he certainly orchestrated a lot of punishment and slavery for them in the OT. Read Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. No, we are all without excuse.

God bless you
FFC

FFC,

What is an "unsaved christian"?

What is an "unsaved christian"?

LOL. I don't know. Good catch. I think I meant to say unsaved person. Was that a Calvinistic slip? Just kidding.

FFC wrote:

What is an "unsaved christian"?

LOL. I don't know. Good catch. I think I meant to say unsaved person. Was that a Calvinistic slip? Just kidding.

To answer your question, one does not have to be involved in the actual worship of Satan in order to have their god be Satan. He is the father of lies, the god of this world, and the god who is opposed to the kingdom of the One True God. (In fact, most "satan worshipper" are actually atheists who belong to radical racist groups like the neo-nazis and skinheads, etc. They really don't believe in the Satan they claim to worship). Therefore, it is not incorrect to claim that the god of any false religion is Satan.

I agree. I guess I was thinking more along the lines that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the same God that we worship...or don't. Do you see what I mean?

FFC wrote:I agree. I guess I was thinking more along the lines that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the same God that we worship...or don't. Do you see what I mean?

Yes. But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the god of modern Judaism. When they reject Christ, the reject Moses (John 5:46) and Abraham (John 8:56). That is an important point overlooked by most modern evangelicals. The common myth today is that Christ condemned the Pharisees for obeying the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christ condemned them because they were Christ-rejecting Judaists (John 8:39-44), a religion that too many Christians are willing to accept as a biblical religion today. Judaism is no more a biblical religion and Islam, Mormonism, etc.

puritan lad wrote:

FFC wrote:I agree. I guess I was thinking more along the lines that the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the same God that we worship...or don't. Do you see what I mean?

Yes. But the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not the god of modern Judaism. When they reject Christ, the reject Moses (John 5:46) and Abraham (John 8:56). That is an important point overlooked by most modern evangelicals. The common myth today is that Christ condemned the Pharisees for obeying the law. Nothing could be further from the truth. Christ condemned them because they were Christ-rejecting Judaists (John 8:39-44), a religion that too many Christians are willing to accept as a biblical religion today. Judaism is no more a biblical religion and Islam, Mormonism, etc.

Actually PL,

The Modern Jewish people have varied views on God just as christians do.

The most important item for them is the Torah - The Torah is everything.

By Torah they mean what we would term written Law and case Law from the bible.

The Torah for them is the most important thing. The concept of God for many Jews [not all] is shadowy. They only have hope in this life. Mortal life is all there is. This is in line with Deuteronomy 28:66. For many, it is the Torah that brings life and holds them together as a people.

If one does not understand this, one can get the wrong impression of modern Jews and say things in error about them. Read Romans Chapter 11 for you answer on this topic. Paul answer is better than any of ours.
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B.W.

I am very familiar with Romans 11, that someday the Jewish people will be saved, resulting in greater blessings for the Gentiles. I don't see where this contradicts my view one bit. In order for this to happen, the Jews will foresake demonic Judaism in favor of Christianity, for...

Acts 4:12
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Peter was telling this to Judaists.